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Greetings all.
Following this revision thread, a controversial opinion on the subject has been sparked. As such, it seems for the best to explain, discuss and determine what to do about it in this thread, at the suggestion of Qawsedf234.
The basis is as such: All Might’s 300 punches feat and subsequent statement agains the USJ Nomu.
This is likely the most debated topic when discussing the character, All Might, and the weakness he has gained due to his life crippling injuries and loss of power. The fabled ability of “Prime All Might” is a legend that, until recently, could not be captured fully.
The arguments and evidence are as follows.
To aid Nomu in its goal, All For One gave Nomu, alongside its regeneration properties, a particular quirk: Shock Absorption.
The particulars of this quirk are never truly explored except in one specific way, and it is for that reason the entire basis of this thread was created.
As seen in the pictures above, and in the main picture of the controversial feat, Nomu does not take damage. Its Quirk absorbs the force it is being hit with, and only by performing damage slowly will you manage to get past its defenses.
All Might, as a bruiser type character who, as of this current battle, prefers to brute force his enemies down rather than use complex strategy, takes this a challenge he must overcome. As such, he engages in a rush of blows with Nomu, a powerful display of his endurance and strength as he goes PLUS ULTRA and launches over 300 punches at Nomu, before finally knocking him out and away from the building they are fighting in.
This immediately lends itself to a question: how did All Might defeat Nomu?
As shown in the initial batch of pictures, All Might points out that Nomu possesses Shock ABSORPTION, not Shock NEGATION. As such, there must be a limit. What limit All Might is looking for is where the arguments split in a way that has divided the staff.
There are two options for All Might’s meaning here.
The first option is that he is referring to the total amount of energy Nomu can absorb before Nomu is left vulnerable.
The second option is that he is referring to a limit it Nomu’s absorption per attack, and that by doing “chip damage,” or “doing more damage than it can absorb at one time,” he can defeat him.
These options are, respectively, called the “Total Energy” and “Per-Punch” limits.
To explain them in understandable terms, I will copy and paste the direct OP of the two, which utilizes video game logic to simplify them.
1) Total Damage Limit
Shock Absorption operates like a “shield” that blocks all of All Might’s punches until the “shield” breaks (absorption limit met).
2) Per-Punch Limit
Shock Absorption operates like a “Defense Buff” that absorbs a certain amount of energy from All Might’s punches, up to a limit. When All Might goes begins to hit harder, that limit is exceeded allowing him to very slightly harm the Nomu.
These two arguments are the basis for the multiplier, as what All Might then says provides incredibly divisive insight.
And so, both interpretations give different results… but there is a problem.
The Per-Punch arguments falls apart heavily under further scrutiny.
Here are is another argument from TheRustyOne, a trusted MHA reviser and calc group member, about this option.
To close out that argument, as this is the main and most pressing matter of the thread: the Total Energy argument, via Occam’s Razor, should be the option we go with, REGARDLESS of any multiplier opinions.
The Per-Punch argument presumes far too much, takes wild leaps in logic, assumes intelligence from characters that could not possibly have it. It works off or complete unknowables that fall apart when values are put against them, it would have you believe All Might, a simple, brutish and confident individual, would boast about a paltry, near nonexistent bump in power. It would have you believe that All Might hasn’t gotten weaker at all over the course of a lost stomach and losing his power, that the gap in strength between himself and others is “not that large.” But even THAT falls apart, and as outlined in the original thread, in a very, VERY obvious way.
I apologize heavily for the length of this OP and the multiple points that need to be made. If there was a simpler way to explain and get the point of this thread across, I would do it, but I feel this is the only way to get the full arguments in the open. This is the result of a long thread of arguments and overall verse defining understandings, but this particular issues has to be ironed out if the MHA verse is to advance.
In the original thread, we had a split vote on Staff: 3 for and 3 against. It is my hope that a concrete conclusion can be created here, and I am willing to bring forth everything I can to explain, prove and ultimately conclude the “Prime All Might” argument.
Votes:
Agree: DemonGodMitchAubin, Maverick_Zero_X, DarkDragonMedeus, Antvasima, Qawsedf234,
Disagree: Damage3245, Mr_Bambu,
Following this revision thread, a controversial opinion on the subject has been sparked. As such, it seems for the best to explain, discuss and determine what to do about it in this thread, at the suggestion of Qawsedf234.
The basis is as such: All Might’s 300 punches feat and subsequent statement agains the USJ Nomu.
This is likely the most debated topic when discussing the character, All Might, and the weakness he has gained due to his life crippling injuries and loss of power. The fabled ability of “Prime All Might” is a legend that, until recently, could not be captured fully.
The arguments and evidence are as follows.
To lay the groundwork and context, All Might is fighting an opponent designed to defeat him, in an incredibly weakend state.
5 years ago in-verse (soon changed to 6-years by the time of the feat being discussed), All Might faced his archenemy All For One, an encounter that resulted in him losing his stomach and damaging his respiratory system. Due to this fight, he has been steadily and constantly wasting away, growing weaker in power as time went on.
As such, by the time he has met the series main character, Izuku Midoriya (Hero name Deku), he can only even use his power, One For All, a power stockpiling ability that can pass itself on, for three hours. Without anyway to gain strength like he did before, he effectively plateaued and then fell. Knowing his time was over, he passed the ability to Deku after 10 months of training, and as a result, his power began to drop again.
Noted by himself here, All Might was weakening at a rate faster than prior, as he notices the decline after only about 2 weeks without the ability. Though he held the embers, the power he had now was paltry compared to what he once was able to conjure.
And it is in this state, hindered and pained, that All Might faces USJ Nomu.
Nomu is a unique character in that he is, effectively, a zombie. A reanimated corpse given Quirks and remodeled by All For One and his doctor, Garaki. Nomu, despite his great strength, claimed to be “the same as All Might” was a prototype for deadlier specimens, the High Ends. Though statistically inferior to these creatures, Nomu was designed with a singular purpose: to defeat All Might due to his weakened state, a test run for their project.
5 years ago in-verse (soon changed to 6-years by the time of the feat being discussed), All Might faced his archenemy All For One, an encounter that resulted in him losing his stomach and damaging his respiratory system. Due to this fight, he has been steadily and constantly wasting away, growing weaker in power as time went on.
As such, by the time he has met the series main character, Izuku Midoriya (Hero name Deku), he can only even use his power, One For All, a power stockpiling ability that can pass itself on, for three hours. Without anyway to gain strength like he did before, he effectively plateaued and then fell. Knowing his time was over, he passed the ability to Deku after 10 months of training, and as a result, his power began to drop again.
Noted by himself here, All Might was weakening at a rate faster than prior, as he notices the decline after only about 2 weeks without the ability. Though he held the embers, the power he had now was paltry compared to what he once was able to conjure.
And it is in this state, hindered and pained, that All Might faces USJ Nomu.
Nomu is a unique character in that he is, effectively, a zombie. A reanimated corpse given Quirks and remodeled by All For One and his doctor, Garaki. Nomu, despite his great strength, claimed to be “the same as All Might” was a prototype for deadlier specimens, the High Ends. Though statistically inferior to these creatures, Nomu was designed with a singular purpose: to defeat All Might due to his weakened state, a test run for their project.
To aid Nomu in its goal, All For One gave Nomu, alongside its regeneration properties, a particular quirk: Shock Absorption.
The particulars of this quirk are never truly explored except in one specific way, and it is for that reason the entire basis of this thread was created.
As seen in the pictures above, and in the main picture of the controversial feat, Nomu does not take damage. Its Quirk absorbs the force it is being hit with, and only by performing damage slowly will you manage to get past its defenses.
All Might, as a bruiser type character who, as of this current battle, prefers to brute force his enemies down rather than use complex strategy, takes this a challenge he must overcome. As such, he engages in a rush of blows with Nomu, a powerful display of his endurance and strength as he goes PLUS ULTRA and launches over 300 punches at Nomu, before finally knocking him out and away from the building they are fighting in.
This immediately lends itself to a question: how did All Might defeat Nomu?
As shown in the initial batch of pictures, All Might points out that Nomu possesses Shock ABSORPTION, not Shock NEGATION. As such, there must be a limit. What limit All Might is looking for is where the arguments split in a way that has divided the staff.
There are two options for All Might’s meaning here.
The first option is that he is referring to the total amount of energy Nomu can absorb before Nomu is left vulnerable.
The second option is that he is referring to a limit it Nomu’s absorption per attack, and that by doing “chip damage,” or “doing more damage than it can absorb at one time,” he can defeat him.
These options are, respectively, called the “Total Energy” and “Per-Punch” limits.
To explain them in understandable terms, I will copy and paste the direct OP of the two, which utilizes video game logic to simplify them.
1) Total Damage Limit
Shock Absorption operates like a “shield” that blocks all of All Might’s punches until the “shield” breaks (absorption limit met).
2) Per-Punch Limit
Shock Absorption operates like a “Defense Buff” that absorbs a certain amount of energy from All Might’s punches, up to a limit. When All Might goes begins to hit harder, that limit is exceeded allowing him to very slightly harm the Nomu.
These two arguments are the basis for the multiplier, as what All Might then says provides incredibly divisive insight.
When he finally defeats the Nomu, All Might comments on his power, comparing himself to his Prime. As shown in the initial set of pictures, his exact quote is as follows:
“Yep. I’m slowing down. In my heyday, five of those punches would’ve been enough. But that was over 300 hits just now.”
This statement becomes WILDLY different depending on which Shock Absorption option you find more fitting. As such, I will detail both of them.
1) Total Energy
Using the total energy option, this creates an incredibly simple but important result: All Might’s Prime is 60x stronger than his current Weakened self.
Naturally, this creates instant doubt. 60x is a massive increase in power for a character, such that many disavow this option entirely based solely on this. But before we get into how this is not only an unfounded opinion for a (so far) featless character that is massively above others, but is also supported, allow me to explain how it operates.
Immediately I would like to remind those reading: Shock Absorption is not normal durability. Unlike the following argument, Shock Absorption in this interpretation operates, as said above, like a “shield.” It can withstand a total amount of energy before breaking. As such, the comparison between All Might and Prime All Might becomes clear: its about how fast he can fill and smash past that energy.
Weakened All Might requires over 300 punches to fill up and break past Nomu’s Shock Absorption, and while going beyond his 100% with Plus Ultra to boot. Prime All Might, in comparison, would only need 5 punches to fill up and break part Nomu. The energy conversion, and this strength difference, are quite explicit, as Prime can essentially do what Weakened does, but 60 times the rate. He is, quite explicitly, 60x stronger using this option.
2) Per-Punch
On the other side of the argument, there is the Per-Punch option. This option, rather than giving Nomu a “total absorption limit,” gives him a “permanent shock based limit.”
Essentially: Nomu can take any amount of hits from a character, as long as they are not too strong. If they are too strong, the damage carries over to Nomu’s actual body, hurting it.
As such, using this option, All Might’s bareage of punches becomes incredibly variable.
To use an example from Qawsedf234, from the original thread, this interpretation essentially goes like this.
Let’s say Nomu has a defense of 99, and All Might has an attack of 100. All Might will be able to do 1 damage to Nomu, and thus over time, defeat Nomu’s HP of 300.
Comversely, let’s say Prime All Might is a 159. In this case, it would only take 5 hits to defeat Nomu’s HP of 300, as he would be dealing 60 damage to Nomu past it’s threshold. This results in an incredibly lower multiplier of only 1.59x stronger.
“Yep. I’m slowing down. In my heyday, five of those punches would’ve been enough. But that was over 300 hits just now.”
This statement becomes WILDLY different depending on which Shock Absorption option you find more fitting. As such, I will detail both of them.
1) Total Energy
Using the total energy option, this creates an incredibly simple but important result: All Might’s Prime is 60x stronger than his current Weakened self.
Naturally, this creates instant doubt. 60x is a massive increase in power for a character, such that many disavow this option entirely based solely on this. But before we get into how this is not only an unfounded opinion for a (so far) featless character that is massively above others, but is also supported, allow me to explain how it operates.
Immediately I would like to remind those reading: Shock Absorption is not normal durability. Unlike the following argument, Shock Absorption in this interpretation operates, as said above, like a “shield.” It can withstand a total amount of energy before breaking. As such, the comparison between All Might and Prime All Might becomes clear: its about how fast he can fill and smash past that energy.
Weakened All Might requires over 300 punches to fill up and break past Nomu’s Shock Absorption, and while going beyond his 100% with Plus Ultra to boot. Prime All Might, in comparison, would only need 5 punches to fill up and break part Nomu. The energy conversion, and this strength difference, are quite explicit, as Prime can essentially do what Weakened does, but 60 times the rate. He is, quite explicitly, 60x stronger using this option.
2) Per-Punch
On the other side of the argument, there is the Per-Punch option. This option, rather than giving Nomu a “total absorption limit,” gives him a “permanent shock based limit.”
Essentially: Nomu can take any amount of hits from a character, as long as they are not too strong. If they are too strong, the damage carries over to Nomu’s actual body, hurting it.
As such, using this option, All Might’s bareage of punches becomes incredibly variable.
To use an example from Qawsedf234, from the original thread, this interpretation essentially goes like this.
Let’s say Nomu has a defense of 99, and All Might has an attack of 100. All Might will be able to do 1 damage to Nomu, and thus over time, defeat Nomu’s HP of 300.
Comversely, let’s say Prime All Might is a 159. In this case, it would only take 5 hits to defeat Nomu’s HP of 300, as he would be dealing 60 damage to Nomu past it’s threshold. This results in an incredibly lower multiplier of only 1.59x stronger.
And so, both interpretations give different results… but there is a problem.
The Per-Punch arguments falls apart heavily under further scrutiny.
For example: let’s replace the numbers given.
Let’s used 699 defense, 700 attack and 759 attack. This gives us a COMPLETELY different multiplier of 1.085x.
Or how about 199, 200 and 259, which gives 1.295x?
The second you put numbers to ANY value, such as All Might’s attack or Nomu’s defense, the entire thing falls apart. You CAN’T quantify the exact ratio of damage All Might is doing with this method, you can’t even tell how much damage is being negated. And that leads to my second point.
The Per-Punch Argument is claiming Nomu is NEGATING hits, not ABSORBING. This option is claiming that at a certain threshold, Nomu simply doesn’t take any damage. Nothing happens to him, no matter how many times you hit him. Only by being stronger do you manage to hurt him… but that’s not how absorption works. For Nomu to be absorbing hits, he has to be storing them as well. And he can’t have an infinite storage capacity, especially without a statement. So the only option is to claim that he DOES have a stock of energy he can take in… but then why would All Might be dealing damage at all? Wouldn’t even the overflow just be absorbed into that stock?
Furthermore against this argument, we have to realize one fact about the Nomu: it is not showing damage. For this option to be true, the Nomu HAS to be showing signs or damage, otherwise it all falls apart. It is taking literally hundreds of attacks, but it shows not even a hint of battle weariness until the final hit, which just knocks it out? Where are the hundreds of punch marks or bruises? Where is Nomu’s reaction?
However, the most ridiculous issue I have with this stance is that… it means All Might had to calculate this. Instead of the Total Energy option, wherein All Might continuously hits Nomu, counts his hits and then compares them to his Prime, this option has you need to believe several things.
1) All Might can notice the damage he is dealing, even though it takes hundreds of attacks to beat Nomu. This means he would have to notice absolutely minuscule damage ramp up with no prior knowledge of Nomu’s actual limit.
2) All Might has managed to, via seeing minuscule damage, math out the exact rate of negation going on with his punches and the exact amount of power he is managing to get through to reach Nomu’s actual body.
3) All Might counts and then calculates, based on the damage negation and minuscule damage he was dealing, the precise number of hits it would take in his Prime to defeat Nomu.
Do I even need to say how ridiculous this is? This option flies in the face of All Might’s intelligence and confidence, rather than taking the moment meant to triumphantly declare the strength and determination he has, and reducing it to him being some form of calculator level mathematician who can notice the most minute of damage being dealt to his opponents.
Let’s used 699 defense, 700 attack and 759 attack. This gives us a COMPLETELY different multiplier of 1.085x.
Or how about 199, 200 and 259, which gives 1.295x?
The second you put numbers to ANY value, such as All Might’s attack or Nomu’s defense, the entire thing falls apart. You CAN’T quantify the exact ratio of damage All Might is doing with this method, you can’t even tell how much damage is being negated. And that leads to my second point.
The Per-Punch Argument is claiming Nomu is NEGATING hits, not ABSORBING. This option is claiming that at a certain threshold, Nomu simply doesn’t take any damage. Nothing happens to him, no matter how many times you hit him. Only by being stronger do you manage to hurt him… but that’s not how absorption works. For Nomu to be absorbing hits, he has to be storing them as well. And he can’t have an infinite storage capacity, especially without a statement. So the only option is to claim that he DOES have a stock of energy he can take in… but then why would All Might be dealing damage at all? Wouldn’t even the overflow just be absorbed into that stock?
Furthermore against this argument, we have to realize one fact about the Nomu: it is not showing damage. For this option to be true, the Nomu HAS to be showing signs or damage, otherwise it all falls apart. It is taking literally hundreds of attacks, but it shows not even a hint of battle weariness until the final hit, which just knocks it out? Where are the hundreds of punch marks or bruises? Where is Nomu’s reaction?
However, the most ridiculous issue I have with this stance is that… it means All Might had to calculate this. Instead of the Total Energy option, wherein All Might continuously hits Nomu, counts his hits and then compares them to his Prime, this option has you need to believe several things.
1) All Might can notice the damage he is dealing, even though it takes hundreds of attacks to beat Nomu. This means he would have to notice absolutely minuscule damage ramp up with no prior knowledge of Nomu’s actual limit.
2) All Might has managed to, via seeing minuscule damage, math out the exact rate of negation going on with his punches and the exact amount of power he is managing to get through to reach Nomu’s actual body.
3) All Might counts and then calculates, based on the damage negation and minuscule damage he was dealing, the precise number of hits it would take in his Prime to defeat Nomu.
Do I even need to say how ridiculous this is? This option flies in the face of All Might’s intelligence and confidence, rather than taking the moment meant to triumphantly declare the strength and determination he has, and reducing it to him being some form of calculator level mathematician who can notice the most minute of damage being dealt to his opponents.
Here are is another argument from TheRustyOne, a trusted MHA reviser and calc group member, about this option.
All Might sends Nomu flying with over 300 punches. He then says that in his heyday, he'd be able to perform the same feat with only 5 punches.
The argument here is simple, what does All Might statement actually mean? What is the simplest explanation? Occam's Razor and all that.
Nomu's Shock Absorption here is honestly irrelevant to me, since I find the idea that All Might is calculating Nomu's Quirk as he's punching him to be absurd. All Might is just going by what he remembers his strength was and where his strength is now as he's punching Nomu.
All Might knows how strong he was back in his prime, he knows how strong he is currently, and he knows how many punches it took to blow away Nomu. His statement isn't about Nomu's Shock Absorption working in a highly specific way. It's him finally realizing just how much weaker he's gotten from his heyday.
All Might was unaware of this until now because he's never fought anyone who was able to push him to his 100% ever since he fought AFO. He knew he was getting weaker, but he just didn't realize how much weaker he had gotten.
We don't know what Horikoshi was planning with this statement, we have to interpret the meaning of it to the best of our abilities. Death of the Author and all that. But I do find the idea that All Might can somehow calculate such a thing to be absurd.
The argument here is simple, what does All Might statement actually mean? What is the simplest explanation? Occam's Razor and all that.
Nomu's Shock Absorption here is honestly irrelevant to me, since I find the idea that All Might is calculating Nomu's Quirk as he's punching him to be absurd. All Might is just going by what he remembers his strength was and where his strength is now as he's punching Nomu.
All Might knows how strong he was back in his prime, he knows how strong he is currently, and he knows how many punches it took to blow away Nomu. His statement isn't about Nomu's Shock Absorption working in a highly specific way. It's him finally realizing just how much weaker he's gotten from his heyday.
All Might was unaware of this until now because he's never fought anyone who was able to push him to his 100% ever since he fought AFO. He knew he was getting weaker, but he just didn't realize how much weaker he had gotten.
We don't know what Horikoshi was planning with this statement, we have to interpret the meaning of it to the best of our abilities. Death of the Author and all that. But I do find the idea that All Might can somehow calculate such a thing to be absurd.
To close out that argument, as this is the main and most pressing matter of the thread: the Total Energy argument, via Occam’s Razor, should be the option we go with, REGARDLESS of any multiplier opinions.
The Per-Punch argument presumes far too much, takes wild leaps in logic, assumes intelligence from characters that could not possibly have it. It works off or complete unknowables that fall apart when values are put against them, it would have you believe All Might, a simple, brutish and confident individual, would boast about a paltry, near nonexistent bump in power. It would have you believe that All Might hasn’t gotten weaker at all over the course of a lost stomach and losing his power, that the gap in strength between himself and others is “not that large.” But even THAT falls apart, and as outlined in the original thread, in a very, VERY obvious way.
Post Surgery Tomura Shigaraki is, by every account possible, the same as Prime All Might. His stats, each and every one of them, are stated equivalent to that of All Might’s in his prime. The links for this are found in the OP of the original thread.
Effectively, he is so far above every other character, so overwhelmingly, magnificently powerful, that the next strongest characters in the verse cannot even scratch his skin.
The OP of the original thread describes it the best, and this is already an obscenely long OP, but the baseline is that claims of “outlier” or “egregious strength gaps” are explicitly and full on false. There is a MASSIVE strength gap between Prime All Might and those around the strength of his Weakened self.
The claim that the gap could not be that big, or that the difference in strength is over exaggerated, is not logical. A Prime All Might level character, when put against the best the heroes have besides Izuku Midoriya himself, cannot hurt him. They combine attacks and amplify them only to do nothing, their strongest moves don’t even move him, their attempts to harm him result in him laughing and reminding them.
He is as durable as Prime All Might, and thus, they cannot do anything to him.
This isn’t even getting into how he one shots and viscerally tears apart anyone that comes near him.
Effectively, he is so far above every other character, so overwhelmingly, magnificently powerful, that the next strongest characters in the verse cannot even scratch his skin.
The OP of the original thread describes it the best, and this is already an obscenely long OP, but the baseline is that claims of “outlier” or “egregious strength gaps” are explicitly and full on false. There is a MASSIVE strength gap between Prime All Might and those around the strength of his Weakened self.
The claim that the gap could not be that big, or that the difference in strength is over exaggerated, is not logical. A Prime All Might level character, when put against the best the heroes have besides Izuku Midoriya himself, cannot hurt him. They combine attacks and amplify them only to do nothing, their strongest moves don’t even move him, their attempts to harm him result in him laughing and reminding them.
He is as durable as Prime All Might, and thus, they cannot do anything to him.
This isn’t even getting into how he one shots and viscerally tears apart anyone that comes near him.
I apologize heavily for the length of this OP and the multiple points that need to be made. If there was a simpler way to explain and get the point of this thread across, I would do it, but I feel this is the only way to get the full arguments in the open. This is the result of a long thread of arguments and overall verse defining understandings, but this particular issues has to be ironed out if the MHA verse is to advance.
In the original thread, we had a split vote on Staff: 3 for and 3 against. It is my hope that a concrete conclusion can be created here, and I am willing to bring forth everything I can to explain, prove and ultimately conclude the “Prime All Might” argument.
Votes:
Agree: DemonGodMitchAubin, Maverick_Zero_X, DarkDragonMedeus, Antvasima, Qawsedf234,
Disagree: Damage3245, Mr_Bambu,
Last edited:
