{PRE-CRT} Puella Magi Verse AP Issues

[Kaltias]

Because it makes no sense all.

You guys said "go via size" and i'm saying that a city sized area is city level with that logic, and that if it doesn't include buildings it's due to the witch not wanting them.

Using the neutron star is just random. Like, Gertrude's labyrinth has buildings, Homulilly's labyrinth has buildings, that one witch in MagiReco has a labyrinth containing buildings.

The point was that not containing structures is due to the witch not caring. The fact that Patricia created a barrier with an empty sky isn't meant as "she's extremely weak and can't beat anyone".

Also, regarding the upscaling stuff, if you guys want to drop High 7-A, sure, but saying that no amount of scaling can equate to "twice as strong" (aka 7-A) isn't the consensus that was reached, unless i'm missing something.

It also doesn't make sense because it essentially means that if you have a scaling chain A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H, you are treating A and G are equal because only the first one shot counts

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure how to apply the "go via size" guideline myself, but I know that the explosion formula is no longer usable.

Maybe Patricia can create an empty sky that big but can't fill up that entire area with skyscrapers?

What I saw in the thread was people struggling to accept 80% of the way to the next tier as acceptable, when this feat is 50% of the way to the next tier. This is exactly why I tried so hard in that thread to get an actual quantifiable figure, so people can't slowly edge the percentage required down over time.

That scaling chain example is kind of the conclusion from the thread. They're not all equal, they're unquantifiably "stronger" but we don't assign higher ratings from it. We can only assign higher ratings from one one-shot on top of a feat.

 

[Kaltias]

The point I'm trying to make is that every tier from 8-B to High 6-A is based on explosions (That, or it's arbitrary) so the only "size" you could possibly compare this stuff to is an explosion.

No one said anything about chains of scaling in that thread though? People only made the example of a character stomping someone in the high end of the tier.

To make an extreme example, it's like saying that final timeline Madoka is marginally above baseline 5-B

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I have time to discuss. This will be a long post as I have a lot to adress in Kal's arguments, suffice to say my argument hasn't changed and is actually emboldened by the quote Kal posted.

Long af post

The glass cannons are glass cannons because they are portrayed as such, the rating system comes after feats (Also, in-game numbers? They aren't from games, they are just official ratings, like those of the Fate characters) We generally tend to disregard in-verse rating systems in favor of what actually occurs in the story, this includes verses such as Fate, which is a poor example as that's undergoing massive revisions at the moment especially regarding its system. It would be fine for Magical Girls who don't really have defined feats/scaling if the system isn't contradicted often, I'll have to get back to you after watching the main story again. I do not recall people like Sayaka and Homura being glass canons in the story. Then again this is mostly a side effect of the ultimately flawed and utterly unsupported pocket reality feats you use. usually both can one shot each other via magical bullets, arrows and whatnot. Citation needed. "Most labyrinths aren't tier 7" is also kind of untrue because most labyrinths are simply impossible to calc, because getting a shot of the entire labyrinth is extremely rare. So the size is simply unknown. Yeah no. You prove they're Tier 7 first, then it's true. Just because you can't get a full size doesn't mean you get to pretend they're Tier 7. They would be just Unknow in this case, so my point stays the same. Like, unless you think that there is a pocket dimension already prepared by a mysterious force that happens to coincidentally reflect the "theme" of the witch. If it's something they gain when becoming a magical girl, then yeah, it's already prepared by a mysterious force, that force being Kyeuby. An isolated dimension was formed with its own independent law that seeks to guide and capture victims from the outside... This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'. That doesn't confirm the witches making them, that simply says "they are formed". So long as you are protected by the isolation field, then you would not become a full 'witch'. Like a chick who grew up within its own shell. That is why you formed a labryinth within. It's quite shocking that it is fully capable of replicating and reproducing an entire city. This place we are at right now, is a world existing solely within your own soul gem." Again, nothing here points to this being done by the same methods that they use to attack enemies. Nor does it say they can even use said energy to attack enemies. And again, this feat has absolutely no support to validate it. This confirms that the dimensions are formed as a side-effect of them becoming witches, it's not something they actively do or have any real power over. Environmental Destruction, Outlier, take your pick. The feats shouldn't be valid. Regarding the size stuffs, so essentially its a completely arbitary and subjective thing? Like, before the system was innaccurate but at least there was an objective formula. Now we have to guess what it would be ranked? It was decided to be based on how we set up our tiering system. For celestial bodies again we have rather clear and consistent standards and with multiple celestial bodies it's consistently Inverse Square determining the tiers all the way up until 3-A. Below that it's based on object destruction. We can't reliably attach any values if creation = destruction and all that's being created is air and clouds. Maybe condensation for the clouds if you want to be generous. See, the issue with that is that the pocket dimensions aren't filled with stuff only because some witches don't want them to be. The barriers are essentially an enclosed space that contains whatever the witch wants. Homulilly's barrier encapsulates a city because that's what she was thinking about, if she wanted it to be an empty landscape it would have been that I'd like some more quotes supporting this. The one you and Somebody gave me imply that they have no control over the outcome anyways. >only not filled with stuff because the witch doesn't want them to That outright contradicts the previous quote you gave me. Also I'd like a quote confirming this. Previous issues with outliers and Environmental Destruction still stand regardless. Because it makes no sense all. You guys said "go via size" and i'm saying that a city sized area is city level with that logic, and that if it doesn't include buildings it's due to the witch not wanting them. Refer to my previous sentence, citation needed. And no. As I've said we define the feats by what is created. If she can alter it to include buildings, prove it. It also doesn't make sense because it essentially means that if you have a scaling chain A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H, you are treating A and G are equal because only the first one shot counts Actually, we practice this numerous times on the site. It's why we don't allow for calculation stacking; in theory it makes sense but in practice it can greatly inflate statistics because it's entirely subjective what "X is so much stronger" equates to on our numerical tiering scale. We decided its reasonable to do it once when its right next to the next tier, but continuing after that is piling on unquantifiable estimation on top of unquantifiable estimation. It exponentially increases the possible inaccuracy.|}

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

To sort of reiterate a point that I think might be overlooked in my long post: wouldn't it be better to use condensation for H.N. Elly's feat? Since it's just clouds and open air?

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dargoo

Sayaka had to abuse her regen due to her terrible durability, and Homura actually isn't rated as a glass cannon.

Literally any fight between magical girls.

So... you just need us to show you how many barriers have a sky + clouds in them? Because that's what would be in the tier 7ish territory. Spoiler alert, that's a lot. I had a list actually of several barriers that I was gonna calculate.

Not sure what you're implying but barriers are not something that a magical girl gets from kyubey lmao.

>It then proceeds to call it the power of a witch... my dude.

Where do we begin?: Witches only have curses as their source of power. Everything is derived from that. Yes they do have power over their own barriers. Oktavia rearranges her barrier from when it was first created, Walpurgis doesn't even use a barrier, Isabeau made her's transparent and null the abilities of other witches, Homulily set her's figuratively on fire, Kriemhild Gretchen actively uses her's as a false body and as a paradise, etc. List a bunch of terms without proving them? I can do that for any feats too.

Like Kal said, that's solely because witches don't want to make a barrier full of lead. We've had forrests, deserts, and etc. All you're doing is arguing one enviroment is invalid (And not even due to an inability to change said enviroment), therefore all barriers are somehow invalid.

>Barriers based on their mental state >No control of the barriers.

What contradiction?

If you want examples that they can be altered, just see the examples I already listed in this post.

Which is what we do? I think you're confusing how these ratings get to where they are. 7-A is upscaled from 7-B. High 7-A was downscaled from 6-C. And before you say this again, no 3rd timeline Madoka is not god-tier or so absurdly higher than the other girls.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo Literally any fight between magical girls.

I mean, a specific example would be nice if it's so common.

So... you just need us to show you how many barriers have a sky + clouds in them? Because that's what would be in the tier 7ish territory. Spoiler alert, that's a lot. I had a list actually of several barriers that I was gonna calculate.

List them, then we can discuss.

Not to say that they're supported by any other feats in the series, but still.

Not sure what you're implying but barriers are not something that a magical girl gets from kyubey lmao. >It then proceeds to call it the power of a witch... my dude.

My whole point is that it's not a power they have control over or can weaponize. It's not a feat.

Magical girls get all their other abilities from Kyubey. What makes the barriers so different?

Also, witches release a massive burst of energy when they turn. It's sort of a one time thing. It's the whole reason Kyubey does what it does, to harvest this. What suggests they can take the energy that forms barriers and direct them at a specfic opponent in this case after this release?

Oktavia rearranges her barrier from when it was first created, Walpurgis doesn't even use a barrier, Isabeau made her's transparent and null the abilities of other witches, Homulily set her's figuratively on fire, Kriemhild Gretchen actively uses her's as a false body and as a paradise, etc. List a bunch of terms without proving them? I can do that for any feats too.

None of those are AP related abilities or feats. For Homulily's just calc the fires she produces, if it's over a period of time then it's likely nowhere near the inflated explosion results. Kreinhild I can sort of agree with, who doesn't say much for other witches.

Like Kal said, that's solely because witches don't want to make a barrier full of lead. We've had forrests, deserts, and etc. All you're doing is arguing one enviroment is invalid

I'm arguing the setting is made a specific way they don't have particular control over. You've yet to prove they can do anything of the sort you just described; we judge by what is created, so if they created a pocket reality full of lead link it, by all means. What you claimed didn't really support the calcs for the current feats really, anyways.

> If you want examples that they can be altered, just see the examples I already listed in this post.

Already commented on those; but feel free to actually link them.

>
Which is what we do? I think you're confusing how these ratings get to where they are. 7-A is upscaled from 7-B. High 7-A was downscaled from 6-C. And before you say this again, no 3rd timeline Madoka is not god-tier or so absurdly higher than the other girls.

We don't upscale like that. We had a fairly long discussion that was concluded, I'd recommend re-reading it.

I have separate reservations with the 6-C downscaling, namely it's based on a numerical system where marginally higher levels stomp the lower ones, as you've already said above. There's no grounds for scaling or even downscaling, no one is remotely near that level.

 

[Kaltias]

Homura is a glass cannon because she isn't a physical fighter. Basically every time she actually gets hit, she gets damaged heavily, even if her weapons do punch far above her weight class (Unless you think that she'd be able to physically match Kyoko, given that Homura can one shot Oktavia who's relatively comparable).

And Sayaka gets damaged by just about everything, she only survives because she has regen.

And them being glass cannons has really nothing to do with the usage of pocket dimensions. Even if you go by more mundane feats, Homura's durability is 8-B while with her weapons she can make 7-C explosions.

I don't really know which citation i'm supposed to give you for being able to one shot each other, look at Homura vs Mami if you want an example, but really showing that Homura or Sayaka regularly tank stuff is up to you.

>I prove that they are tier 7 first even if the issue is being impossible to calc

That's not how outliers work. An unknown data doesn't support consistency nor it creates an inconsistency. If you have a pool with the numbers 5, 10, 15 and nineteen unknown numbers, you don't call the three numbers you know statistical outliers because all the other numbers could be 10000000000. You ignore the unknown numbers.

Kyubey creating the labyrinths make no sense because they are based on the magical girl's minds right before she transforms. Kyubey can't see the future so he can't know that when they make the contract.

Also the quote I posted literally says that Homura created the false Mitakihara.

And 8-A to High 6-A is not based on object destruction. Like, there is nothing to say about it, all those tiers are based on nuking something. There is not a single tier whose border was calculated via the destruction of a specific object among these.

Also, doing upscaling once if it happens six times is nonsensical. Like, according to that logic, a scaling chain of 10 characters massively above a 50 tons feat is below stomping a guy with a 60 tons feat.

I also don't even know where said consensus was reached because I can't find anyone in the thread saying "scaling chains are now meaningless after the first stomp" (which is what you're saying)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And Sayaka gets damaged by just about everything, she only survives because she has regen.

She still isn't instantly killed or obliterated, though.

I don't really know which citation i'm supposed to give you for being able to one shot each other, look at Homura vs Mami if you want an example, but really showing that Homura or Sayaka regularly tank stuff is up to you.

I'll re-watch the fights and come back to that later. As you said it's not particularly related to the pocket realities.

>I prove that they are tier 7 first even if the issue is being impossible to calc

If they're impossible to calculate they aren't support for Tier 7. Or any Tier for that matter.

If you have a pool with the numbers 5, 10, 15 and nineteen unknown numbers, you don't call the three numbers you know statistical outliers because all the other numbers could be 10000000000. You ignore the unknown numbers.

I agree. So we should disregard the pocket reality calculations, then.

My point was that the other pocket reality feats don't create consistency so this sort of supports my argument.

Kyubey creating the labyrinths make no sense because they are based on the magical girl's minds right before she transforms. Kyubey can't see the future so he can't know that when they make the contract.

No, I mean Kyubey causes them to be created. Not that he creates them himself.

I already addressed this in response to Somebody: "Also, witches release a massive burst of energy when they turn. It's sort of a one time thing. It's the whole reason Kyubey does what it does, to harvest this. What suggests they can take the energy that forms barriers and direct them at a specific opponent in this case after this release?"

Also the quote I posted literally says that Homura created the false Mitakihara.

My point was that she can't control or channel it into an attack.

And 8-A to High 6-A is not based on object destruction. Like, there is nothing to say about it, all those tiers are based on nuking something. There is not a single tier whose border was calculated via the destruction of a specific object among these.

You misunderstand my argument. My point is that those tiers are typically set by characters through object destruction, and is not consistently done through explosions. If creation = destruction, then what is being created matters. In the case of cast cosmic space yeah, it's consistent in what occupies them, and we even agreed to disregard mostly empty spaces. In the case of lower tiers there's obviously a difference from creating open air and as I've said multiple times solid lead.

Also, doing upscaling once if it happens six times is nonsensical. Like, according to that logic, a scaling chain of 10 characters massively above a 50 tons feat is below stomping a guy with a 60 tons feat.

According to this logic, we should continue stacking calcs on themselves as it's "nonsensical" to only do it once. You also misread my arguments again, I'm not saying that a massive scaling chain doesn't make them massively above a rating, we simply can't quantify it without higher feats. You literally can't argue for any specific rating.

I also don't even know where said consensus was reached because I can't find anyone in the thread saying "scaling chains are now meaningless after the first stomp" (which is what you're saying)

"It is possible for a character who is depicted as superior to another in a statistic to be placed in a tier above the other, given that the other character is close to the the next tier. However, this ultimately needs to be decided through case-by-case analysis... It should probably be "vastly superior" instead of just "superior" since we're usually talking about one-shots/taking no damage.

For your reading pleasure.

Also read the first couple of exchanges where it's discussed.

 

[SomebodyData]

Mami (4.5 Ap) oneshots Kyoko (3.5 Dura), Madoka (6 AP) oneshots Mami (1 Dura).

The List

PMMM Portable's version of Oktavia's barrier has a sky. Specifically very gray clouds (May be able to help to determine just how big it is). PMMM Portable's version of a witch (Don't know which one) has a city. PMMM Portable's version of Candeloro's barrier has a sky. Specifically significantly dark clouds (Probably bigger than Oktavia's) Itzli's/Quitterie's barrier also has a sky. Looks vast but probably will be calced less than anything else. Stacy's Barrier has a city in the background. Is a low-tier witch (Relatively to Magia Record), making it scale a lot of people. Third Timeline Oktavia's barrier is absolutely massive just from what we've seen alone. Inital Oktavia's barrier has a sky and the land alone is already massive. Patricia (Which you already know) These are just the ones from the main series + 1 Magia Record one. Give me a while and I could probably double that.

Well of course the girls can't use it. They don't have it.

The fact that this is a legitmate question... Magical girls don't have barriers. My response was poking at that fact, since it was obvious so I assumed you misspoke. If you didn't, then I'd suggest watching the series because its starting to sound like you only remember the pieces you want to remember. Now if normal girls do have barriers, go ahead and cite it, because whoa.

Just born witches <<< Matured witches, said energy output is only greater if you assume witches are the sole source of fighting entropy (In which case that would be tier 4, but obvious outlier). Because the same energy used to create barriers (Curses) are also used to attack people.

You were asking if they had control over their barriers. That's what the examples were proving.

Again I literally just linked several witches manipulating their own barriers.

According to your scaling argument, first form Frieza is no weaker than fourth form Frieza in tiers. And it was already pointed out that there is no absolute rule against upscaling, just that its case by case.

 

[Agnaa]

@Kal My bad, I thought it was brought up in the thread that scaling chains are meaningless after the first stomp, since that's how I've seen many other verses be treated. As it turns out, I was mistaken, and it was just a discussion I had with Dargoo over Discord.

Should we make a thread about this specific issue then?

Also, just because the tiers were defined a certain way, doesn't mean it makes sense for all feats that lie in those tiers to be calculated that way, nor does it mean it makes sense for creation feats to be calculated that way. That's why the result of the pocket reality feats thread was to not use explosions for less than stellar feats.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'll be going through the scans for a bit then. Thanks for posting them, this is why I'm working on a porposal for pages dedicated to compiling sources for feats and abilities.

The fact that this is a legitmate question... Magical girls don't have barriers. My response was poking at that fact, since it was obvious so I assumed you misspoke. If you didn't, then I'd suggest watching the series because its starting to sound like you only remember the pieces you want to remember.

I wasn't speaking of magical girls, I was speaking of witches. Perhaps you read my post wrong.

Commenting on my knowledge of the series isn't an argument. I'm not claiming you don't know about the verse because I disagree with your interpretation of it.

the same energy used to create barriers (Curses) are also used to attack people.

Curses are hax though. They have nothing to do with AP even if they use the same energy, which I'd need a source for.

Again the witches release most of their energy when transforming, which creates the barrier. I don't see how they perform anything remotely close to it afterwards, beyond controlling ultimately minor aspects of it such as causing fires, sans the utmost most powerful witches such as Kreimheld.

According to your scaling argument, first form Frieza is no weaker than fourth form Frieza in tiers. And it was already pointed out that there is no absolute rule against upscaling, just that its case by case.

Either you're misunderstanding my argument or this is a pretty bad stawman of my posts. I'm not arguing that they aren't stronger than the feats they scale above. I'm saying we can't quantify and assign a tier to that.

Upscaling again, was only allowed for closeknit gaps and massive power differences. By and large this is the rule around the site.

 

[Kaltias]

Sayaka not being obliterated doesn't matter though, I can take a bullet without being obliterated, but I don't scale from it. And she doesn't die because she's immortal.

Kyubey being indirectly the cause of the labyrinths also means nothing. If I indirectly cause an explosion via triggering a landmine, that doesn't change how strong the mine is.

Then explain to me, why a 1,7 tons character being one shot warrants High 8-C. It is only unquantifiably above, as you said. Definitely no actual 2 tons calc.

Doing case-by-case also includes stuff like, you know, determining how big the gap is if a scaling chain is longer. And i'm reading that thread at nauseam, but "a bigger scaling chain does not allow for a jump unless you meet a previous threshold" was not said nor agreed upon.

 

[SomebodyData]

Magical girls get all their other abilities from Kyubey. What makes the barriers so different?

It's not an argument, its advice, espically for what I'm about to say below.

But I am confused about one thing, are you implying Kyubey creates the barriers?

Curses aren't hax. They're energy to counter entropy that's why Kyubey needs them in the first place. We don't even know what curses do other than empower witches. (Unless you're UKG of course) Also I need to cite a source? You just said that they release said energy when born in your posts. You need to cite that the curses themselves only hax people.

I don't understand how you could think that manipulating the entire barrier doesn't even come close to creating it? We've always treating RW as AP and they're using the exact same source of power to do so.

I think you're the one misunderstanding here. Fourth form Frieza does have a tier assigned to that. That was my point.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Sayaka not being obliterated doesn't matter though, I can take a bullet without being obliterated, but I don't scale from it. And she doesn't die because she's immortal.

I'm inclined to agree but it really depends on the type of attack. If she takes a blunt force attack and only gets some broken bones instead of being pasted she clearly isn't orders of magnitude below the feat in dura. I'd have to look over her fights to determine this.

Kyubey being indirectly the cause of the labyrinths also means nothing. If I indirectly cause an explosion via triggering a landmine, that doesn't change how strong the mine is.

My point was that Kyubey causes them to harvest the energy of the witch transformation, which causes labyrinths to form. It's a one-time thing.

To use your example, it also doesn't mean you have any control over or capacity to throw around the energy the landmine produced in your other attacks.

Then explain to me, why a 1,7 tons character being one shot warrants High 8-C. It is only unquantifiably above, as you said. Definitely no actual 2 tons calc.

Because we agreed on up-scaling small differences. There was actually multiple people including Kep who agreed with what you just said, the result of the thread was ultimately compromise.

You still have no grounds to say exactly how much above certain feats the characters are without higher feats, though.

Doing case-by-case also includes stuff like, you know, determining how big the gap is if a scaling chain is longer. And i'm reading that thread at nauseam, but "a bigger scaling chain does not allow for a jump unless you meet a previous threshold" was not said nor agreed upon.

You're being far too generous with case-by-case and ignore most of the thread. "Case-by-case" was decided because we don't want to assign a specific number for stuff like 1.5x, 1.7x, not so that we can chuck baselines tens of times higher. It was for some reasonable small differences, not so that the rule can be taken to the utmost extreme as you're doing.

I'll use the "other verses don't do this argument" once to make a point; PMMM is an excpetion among exceptions with this degree of upscaling when other verses like Infamous have much better grounding to do it. Not a part of my argument for obvious reasons, but I wanted to express a point.

I'll need some time to arrange quotes but Agnaa and Ant certainly agreed to that at the end of the thread.

The thread is still open, feel free to bring this up there, though.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

But I am confused about one thing, are you implying Kyubey creates the barriers?

No.

Curses aren't hax. They're energy to counter entropy that's why Kyubey needs them in the first place.

As they're used offensively yes. That is what I was speaking of. Perhaps we weren't referring to the same curses.

The energy Kyubey harvests is released in a massive burst that as I've said see no reason to use for their conventional attacks especially since it's been repeatedly stated to be harvested.

Also I need to cite a source? You just said that they release said energy when born in your posts. You need to cite that the curses themselves only hax people.

You need to cite the source for curses being the energy source for the barriers.

I didn't say that they 'only hax people'. I called them hax. I claimed they don't have to do with a Witch's AP.

I don't understand how you could think that manipulating the entire barrier doesn't even come close to creating it? We've always treating RW as AP and they're using the exact same source of power to do so.

You haven't shown me manipulation of the entire barrier for anything but the strongest witches. What's shown is, as I've said, small-scale compared to what has been extrapolated. Calculate the degree of control a witch shows in any case.

 

[SomebodyData]

Alright, got confused due to the entire kyubey gives them abilities thing.

I'm going to have to ask you to cite that. I think you're thinking of the witches kisses as part of the curses, but we don't actually have proof of the curses being the direct cause of it. the only other type of curses belongs to a few magical girls, witches don't have them.

I don't think the energy bursted was ever stated to create the barriers, but regardless, the burst of energy isn't that much higher than their normal selves. For example, Kyoko isn't too damaged from Oktavia's birth/burst. Sometimes they don't even produce a burst of energy (Madoka for example), so it just seems he harvests their overall curses rather than just the inital burst.

I was thinking you need to prove that there is another source of power for witches, rather than me proving there isn't another source particularily for barriers.

...So they're only hax. If they're not being used for AP (Unless you want to seperate their inital burst from tiering altogether), then yeah, that's hax.

I already mentioned Oktavia has completely changed her barrier twice (The third timeline that I already linked, Oktavia originally bor, Kyoko upon rentering the barrier) and Isabeau (Made her barrier completely transparent).

Even ignoring Oktavia, I don't think it was ever stated that only strong witches have control over their barriers.

 

[Agnaa]

so it just seems he harvests their overall curses rather than just the inital burst

I'm not familiar with the extended magi-verse, I've only seen the anime and Rebellion, but isn't the plot of those arcs that Kyubey's race does harvest the initial burst? That's why Madoka saving them just before they turn into witches ****** with their plans?

 

[SomebodyData]

I mean, if they only harvested the inital burst, they wouldn't really care about Isabeau de Bavière (She was harvesting the despair produced by pre-existing witches, about to be witches, and her own home-made witches. Is why Kyubey needed Tart to stop her).

It's less than the inital burst, that's for sure. The point I was trying to make is that they're still comparable though.

Actually that reminds me, where are you guys getting the inital burst = barrier creation anyways?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm going to have to ask you to cite that. I think you're thinking of the witches kisses as part of the curses, but we don't actually have proof of the curses being the direct cause of it. the only other type of curses belongs to a few magical girls, witches don't have them.

I'm speaking of curses as Curse Manipulation, which a lot of witch abilities would roughly fall under. I'll need time to specifically source it but in all honesty it has little relevance to my actual point.

For example, Kyoko isn't too damaged from Oktavia's birth/burst. Sometimes they don't even produce a burst of energy (Madoka for example), so it just seems he harvests their overall curses rather than just the inital burst.

That's a bit misleading. Oktavia's burst just caused her labyrinth to form and sent off an airblast that would barely register as Tier 8. There wasn't any significant burst of energy.

As for the second part Agnaa summed up my reservations with it.

I was thinking you need to prove that there is another source of power for witches, rather than me proving there isn't another source particularily for barriers.

No, you need to prove that they share a source. "Not knowing the source" isn't a source. You can't prove a positive with a negative like that. So you would need to provide the source yourself first.

...So they're only hax. If they're not being used for AP (Unless you want to seperate their inital burst from tiering altogether), then yeah, that's hax.

So, uh, we agree then?

I'm seperating the barriers as they are initially formed in the burst of a witch transformation; them altering the barriers is the hax.

I already mentioned Oktavia has completely changed her barrier twice (The third timeline that I already linked, Oktavia originally bor, Kyoko upon rentering the barrier) and Isabeau (Made her barrier completely transparent).

What says Oktavia altered her entire barrier, and not that Kyoko entered a different area of it, or that the barrier has tons of shifting elements that could have changed the appearance independent of Okatavia? We don't ever see her actively changing it.

Making a barrier transparent doesn't really translate to being able to completely control the barrier to the point where I'd think about assigning an AP value to it.

Even ignoring Oktavia, I don't think it was ever stated that only strong witches have control over their barriers.

No, but said witches are powerful enough to bring their barriers into reality and already far exceed other witches. They're already exceptions to the rule.

Actually that reminds me, where are you guys getting the inital burst = barrier creation anyways?

Barriers are created/significantly altered when a Magical Girl transforms into a Witch?

 

[Kaltias]

Isabeau is 6-B regardless of barriers shenanigans because she could have obliterated France at her weakest if she wanted to.

Also I think that you misunderstood what i'm saying regarding upscaling. I have no issues if you guys want to remove High 7-A, what i'm arguing for is that unless you're saying that "person who scales above Patricia four times over.

Regarding your outlier point, what I said actually doesn't support your argument. If a feat is unquantifiable it's completely irrelevant as far as consistency goes. If there are a handful of feats that happen to be consistent with each other (Aka the current ratings) if you want to prove that they are outliers finding the inconsistencies is up to you, not to me.

If you want to argue "They struggle with lesser feats" by all means, do that, it's a valid argument. But "pocket dimensions with unknown size discredit those with a known size" doesn't work.

Also, while i'm not familiar with MagiReco, if Alina can create barriers through her own power it does kinda show that it's not necessarily something that can't be accomplished through magic normally

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Well yeah, that's the issue. The characters struggle with lower feats pretty consistently. Like, Mami's best feat w/ Tiro Finale is High 7-C, while Kyoko's suicide attack is Low 7-C.

Even if you ignore the application of an explosion formula for pocket dimensions, there's still an outlier problem.

EDIT: There's also Homura's Low 7-C feat, as well as her barely surviving an 8-B attack.

 

[Kaltias]

Legit the only thing that is outlierish is Patricia's feat, though (which we actually agreed on a while ago because the size is > any mountain on the planet so it's High 7-A).

Low 7-B, 7-C etc really aren't outliers when they have other tier 7 feats.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

That's ignoring the context. Low 7-B and 7-C come from literally-who witches, and are performed passively, while stronger characters struggle with comparable/inferior feats. All these feats being Tier 7 doesn't matter.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

That is also assuming said Low 7-B, 7-C, etc. feats are even Tier 7 to begin with, since, again the method which is used for their estimation is blatantly wrong.

 

[Kaltias]

Low 7-B literally comes from creating a small city.

Also, what do you even mean with literally-who witches? Every single witch except Homulilly, Kriemhild and Walpurgis is a literally-who.

And if you don't think that creating a small city is Low 7-B, I don't really know what you're looking for

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

By "literally-who" I meant "random". Sorry for causing a misunderstanding, if that occurred.

Fair enough on Low 7-B, I guess, although it depends on who would scale to it.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, as I said, every witch is a "literally-who" so idk how that's relevant for scaling.

Elly is a fodder witch who only scales to fodder magical girls, the other witch idk because she's from MagiReco

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

The thing is that Elly's barrier is calced via an explosion formula as well, and even then, it's a bit outlierish, since Kyoko, for instance, performed a Low 7-C feat which killed her.

 

[Kaltias]

No, Kyoko performed a feat that it's at least that value, because the explosion was still expanding but we were unable to see it in its entirety, and she died because she blasted her Soul Gem.

Even then Low 7-C and 7-C are close so idk how that supports the outlier argument.

Plus it's like saying that every tier 7 in fiction who dies without being hit by a nuke wasn't tier 7 to begin with

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Okay, even if you consider the feat as 7-C (baseline for safety's sake), it was still done via suicide attack, while Elly's was done passively. I think the issue here is clear.

>Plus it's like saying that every tier 7 in fiction who dies without being hit by a nuke wasn't tier 7 to begin with

Dunno how that's related to what I'm trying to say, but okay.

 

[Kaltias]

So? Scaling exists for a reason.

Because that's literally what you're saying. You're saying "Kyoko died to an attack calculated below that, so she can't possibly scale from Elly"

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

So? Scaling exists for a reason.
Because that's literally what you're saying. You're saying "Kyoko died to an attack calculated below that, so she can't possibly scale from Elly"

Scaling can be fallacious too, which is what I'm arguing about.

If Kyoko's Soul Gem was shattered by an attack as strong as the passive feat from a fodder witch who is far weaker than her, something's probably off.

And yet again, Elly's barrier was calced via an explosion formula as well, so it can be pretty much written off too.

 

[Kaltias]

No, Kyoko's soul gem was shattered by her own attack. That's it. AoE is a thing.

Or are you going to call tier 4 DBZ an outlier because Vegeta self destroying didn't nuke a country, and much less a solar system?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

No, Kyoko's soul gem was shattered by her own attack. That's it. AoE is a thing.

Just saying, but I personally find that weird, especially when Kyoko's durability is higher than her attack power, and last time I checked, even 0.5 makes quite a difference. That, and Soul Gems are supposed to be more durable than the megucas.

 

[Kaltias]

You checked wrong, because a gap of 0.5 is completely unquantifiable. The tiering system is not linear, a higher rating = stronger, that's it.

How much stronger is based on the scaling defined in verse

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Huh, I see. Still a bit weird.

 

[SomebodyData]

Low 7-C Kyoko was based on Oktavia's barrier size from what was calculable, there is a reason why in the inital calc I mentioned the actual feat was probably much higher. There is also the problem that Scorpion Spear (The suicide attack) doesn't actually need the soul gem to be destroyed according to Wraith Arc, Portable, and Magia Record. The more likely thing is that Kyoko needed the AoE to kill Sayaka or just committed suicide.

8-B Homura is outdated, Portable confirms the buildings fell from above the supercell storm (I'll link it if I need to, but it's not really important), whereas the calc also measures it based off the time we actually saw it (Only 4 seconds if I remember correctly). If I were to recalc it, it would probably be around 8-A to High 7-C. Not to mention, like I said in the calc as well, it only counted for the first floor that hit Homura. She probably got bombarded by at least dozens.

I know Kal debunked this already, just wanted to point out issues with these argues from a context and statistics level

I'll respond to Dargoo's post soon too.

 

[SomebodyData]

If that's the case then I'll drop it.

Were you not implying the inital blast/creation was inreplicable and greater than anything they are capable of doing? If that's the case, then why are you also pointing out its far below what they're capable of?

I'm 90% sure that if the series says that the source of the power of witches is curses, then you need to prove that there is another source as well. Not me needing to prove there isn't. You're the one trying to provide a positive by saying witches have two sources of power.

No, I don't. I'm pointing out that you're literally calling them 'just hax' if they don't have anything to with AP (Which by the way, is not true either, Isabeau de Bavière and Rampaging Sayaka distinctly grew stronger because of the curses.) Creation itself is a hax. You can't just seperate them like that, espically we treat both abilities as AP.

The fact that Oktavia is still in the middle of the barrier? The inital barrier was out in the open, not closed in like her final appearance. If it did move itself because of shifting parts, then we would have seen them somewhere in the inital barrier. There is also the fact that some barriers don't change at all, so this automatic change speculation is unfounded.

Perhaps not, but its a showcasing that they do have control over their barriers.

Their barriers aren't brought out to reality though? And again, unless you have proof, you can't just say only stronger witches = scale to barriers.

Yeah, but going by this train of thought, wouldn't you need to first prove they're correlated outside of just occuring at similar times?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Like I said I'm very busy today, but I'll work on responses to Somebody's and Kal's posts tomorrow.