{PRE-CRT} Puella Magi Verse AP Issues

[Agnaa]

This thread's for discussion of the various issues with Patricia's 50 Megaton AP feat and upscaling from it. This isn't a CRT, but planning/drafting for what changes to pages should be suggested in the CRT we end up making.

Firstly, the feat itself is using explosion yield for pocket realities. Recently, the guidelines around pocket reality feats were changed to use simple estimations of size for feats smaller than a celestial body. This text can be seen on the Pocket Reality Manipulation page:

In cases when a pocket reality encompasses areas smaller than celestial bodies, the attack potency is estimated from the size.

Secondly, the feat, despite being less than halfway through the tier, is upscaled from 7-B to High 7-A through a lengthy scaling chain. This goes against the consensus on upscaling and tier-jumping, as discussed in this thread, where people agreed to only counting one one-shot for tier jumps, rather than the dozen or so used to get to High 7-A. On top of this, it was contentious whether even a 1.25x gap to the next tier was enough for a one-shot to upscale, whereas PM-Verse jumps from 50 Megatons to 100 Megatons in going from that feat to 7-A.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Kaltias calculated the size of the Patricia's barrier to be High 7-A, but in that case nobody would scale to it, as she was one-shotted by an inexperienced Homura with a single homemade bomb.

 

[Agnaa]

High 7-As an outlier but 7-B isn't? Weird.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Kinda, yes. Especially when other feats vary from 8-B to High 7-C.

 

[SomebodyData]

Mami (4.5) one shotted Kyoko (3.5+) actually.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay? But a 50 Megaton feat (even if it had an outdated method) shouldn't get to 7-A no matter how many one-shots there are, and it definitely should never get to High 7-A.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'll continue my discussion with Aguila.

Don't they use magic to create them?. And I assume they they also use magic for their attacks, same source of power so they scale like the reasoning at the bottom of the ED page.

Do they? And simply because it's done through magic, it does not mean it should scale to their regular methods of attacking similar to how we don't take a suicide attack and scale it to every other attack. In many verses with magic there's also spells that have higher potency than others. The reason most magic-based verses with weather or whatever noncombat abilities have scaling is because we have solid reasoning for other spells being stronger. I fail to see this in PMMM. The ED page also puts an emphasis on case-by-case analysis. I'd know this, since I wrote the thing myself.

I can agree to that, except the arbitrary ratings we give to all those types feats are still upheld and the standard for how they are generally rated hasn't changed soooo

Except the arbitrary standards we set, as Agnaa pointed out in the OP, don't quantify them for anything that isn't a celestial body feat. "Sooooo".

Using other feats not being on the same level as a basis to knock them down is silly to me when other series aren't held to the same standard, heck DMC is a verse with nothing beyond tier 6 outside of a single character's feat which coincidentally also requires us to arbitrarily assume it equates to an omnidirectional explosion because RW and merging dimensions sure as hell ins't quantifiable either.

Here we go again with the "other verses don't do it".

Other verses have reasons they do it. I've yet to see any real reasoning for PMMM other than "hey look X verse does it". So your argument is crazy circular in that regard, to speak of fallacies. So please argue outside of the context of other verses for a second.

Even then other verses that do use them are almost exclusively for celestial body feats for the God-tiers of the verse. Nobody's doing the same thing that's done in PMMM for Fate servants or Senran Kagura despite both also having pocket reality abilities.

For lower-end pocket reality feats like those in PMMM, we should, IMO, have backup. They're clearly outliers if anything else, as characters struggle to preform lesser feats.

all other stuff concerning the verse belongs in a proper CRT. I'm just making an impromptu rant about the cognitive dissonance needed to criticize their feats.

And here we are. Speak away, then.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

>Just checking wiki after come on my long relative house after spend on the road for 6+ hours

>See this

.....Shit

 

[SomebodyData]

@Aguila it's High 7-A on a profile? Also not sure if it's factoring that a 6 in the scale is a 6-C, iirc we do something similar for the gap between first form frieza and super perfect cell. Where two results (7-B and 6-C) exists and a character exists quite explictly ranked in between right in the middle.

@Dargoo what conversation?

Magical girls have a finite amount of stamina, the few girls with to pocket reality creation or exactly barriers (Alina) don't waste much energy using them, I would assume something similar happens with witches.

Waiting for the size chart y'all said would be made sooooo

Are you seriously making a 'other verses do it this way' argument while talking why it's trash? And then your outlier argument:

So let me get this straight, in a verse that is 90% pocket reality feats, you wanna consider them all outliers? I don't think you know how many of these feats exist in the verse at best.

 

[Agnaa]

@SD Avatar of Calamity is High 7-A, and Mami Tomoe has some High 7-A dura for certain things.

 

[SomebodyData]

Then yeah I can see your issue, like I said it was probably because Mami was already exactly inbetween kyoko (7-B/3.5) and Madoka (6-C/6), so AoC/Mami's ribbons would probably be somewhat close but if you have a problem with that, that's ok.

 

[Agnaa]

Not sure how I feel about upscaling and downscaling like that, it's a really weird situation.

And even if downscaling is fine, the upscaling to just 7-A still has its issues.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Are you seriously making a 'other verses do it this way' argument while talking why it's trash?

Pretty sure what he's saying is that even if you take the argument at face value, there are not many verses that scale their characters to pocket dimension feats like PMMM does.

 

[SomebodyData]

Must have gotten lost then, because I was pretty sure the argument was about outliers there.

Regardless tho, he also wanted context yet did not provide any for Fate or Senran, the issue stands.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Magical girls have a finite amount of stamina, the few girls with to pocket reality creation or exactly barriers (Alina) don't waste much energy using them, I would assume something similar happens with witches.

My point is how they can use the energy for combat, when they only create pocket realities as part of becoming a witch. Even then I'd like evidence for them not using much energy for the pocket realities and them using the same energy for the pocket realities, as your claim relies on multiple unbacked assumptions.

Heck, if there's a lack of effort that contradicts the other feats in the series even more.

Waiting for the size chart y'all said would be made sooooo

It doesn't exist. You estimate it, that's what was agreed on for the page.

Hence why it's mostly just unquantifiable as a feat, hence why we should get supporting feats for a reference.

Are you seriously making a 'other verses do it this way' argument while talking why it's trash? And then your outlier argument:

So let me get this straight, in a verse that is 90% pocket reality feats, you wanna consider them all outliers? I don't think you know how many of these feats exist in the verse at best.

I'm entertaining the "other verses do it this way argument", not using it as the forefront of my argument as Aguila did. In essence I'm asking them to step out of that ballpark but also demonstrating that they also happen to be wrong inside of said ballpark.

Very few of those "90% pocket reality feats" are in the Tier 7 range, just a select few that are cherrypicked to define stats for the verse when support for the tiering is nowhere else to be seen.

Even if many of them where, what's wrong even then is considering them as feats to begin with. You're building a house with no solid foundation; Magical Girls struggle to perform feats far less than the ones extrapolated by unquantifiable pocket reality feats yet we think they should be there for whatever reasons instead of calling out the outliers as they are.

Notice that most valid pocket reality feats involve celestial bodies, while below that it gets too convoluted to really rate them.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, just to establish, can I have links to scans/vids that say that the Witches themselves create the pocket realities, and aren't just transporting people to existing spaces?

(EDIT): To add on to my previous argument as well (so that I don't triple-post), the reason lower-level pocket reality feats can't really be quantified is because we placed tiers below that based on specific object destruction. For planetoids and large starscapes it's easy to determine tiering based on our standards for those tiers, but below that what is being destroyed matters far more.

To use H. N. Elly's feat as an example, the pocket reality is legit just open air. It's clear that should be less than creating an equivalent space filled with solid lead but we can't say how much more or less that is.

 

[Agnaa]

@Dargoo Any thoughts on the other main point of this thread, the upscaling/downscaling PM-verse uses?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo Any thoughts on the other main point of this thread, the upscaling/downscaling PM-verse uses?

I thought we already decided that doesn't allign with what we decided on upscaling in other threads and in the rules.

 

[Agnaa]

@Dargoo And SD has mentioned that the High 7-A rating is partially from downscaling from a 6-C feat.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Dargoo And SD has mentioned that the High 7-A rating is partially from downscaling from a 6-C feat.

Link? Context on the feat and why downscaling is being done?

 

[Agnaa]

This is the feat

Downscaling is being done because characters have in-game numbers corresponding to their attack (as well as other stats but this is an AP discussion). A rating of "3.5" is given for characters comparable to the 7-B feat, and a rating of "6" is given to the character who did the 6-C feat. The High 7-A rating is for a character exactly in-between those two ratings.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

The whole thing is confusing as all hell. Like, why are they given High 7-A in particular? Why the profiles don't say anything about that? Why are High 7-As being downscaled from 6-C when they have neither the in-verse rating of their own, nor anything else that would support the downscaling?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Downscaling is being done because characters have in-game numbers corresponding to their attack. A rating of "3.5" is given for characters comparable to the 7-B feat, and a rating of "6" is given to the character who did the 6-C feat. The High 7-A rating is for a character exactly in-between those two ratings.

At the same time Somebody has claimed that 4.5s stomp 4.0s/3.5s in the verse, so downscaling seems rather off since a "6" would be ridiculously higher than the below rankings anyways. We only downscale to characters that are "weaker than, but still somewhat comparable to ____".

That was also Madoka performing the feat, who should have no business scaling her feats, even by a fraction, to people like Sakura and Mami.

A ridiculously higher feat done by a far stronger character isn't 'support' for the pocket reality 'feats' done by far weaker characters, to sum up my argument.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I also think the rating system as a whole shouldn't be used; most of the "glass cannons" caused by utilizing it get into tussles with enemies that can match their AP.

 

[Kaltias]

The glass cannons are glass cannons because they are portrayed as such, the rating system comes after feats (Also, in-game numbers? They aren't from games, they are just official ratings, like those of the Fate characters)

A lot of magical girls aren't even melee fighters, they can fight people who match their AP because usually both can one shot each other via magical bullets, arrows and whatnot.

"Most labyrinths aren't tier 7" is also kind of untrue because most labyrinths are simply impossible to calc, because getting a shot of the entire labyrinth is extremely rare. So the size is simply unknown.

I guess i'll go find some scans about the witches creating the labyrinths when i'm home, never really thought it'd be a point of contention as it's pretty blatant tbh. Like, unless you think that there is a pocket dimension already prepared by a mysterious force that happens to coincidentally reflect the "theme" of the witch. I'd get the question if the average barrier was like Patricia's because a sky is something normal, but i don't really get how barriers are otherwise supposed to already be there. Also because when the witch dies, the barriers disappear. The most blunt statement that comes to mind is Kyubey saying this in Rebellion (Hope you don't mind a transcript):

"When we isolate it from the power that purifies and ascends magic girls, the power that you called 'laws of cycle' then what will happen to the soul gem? The resulting observation is indeed rather fascinating. An isolated dimension was formed with its own independent law that seeks to guide and capture victims from the outside... This match what you have previously explained, the power of a 'witch'. So long as you are protected by the isolation field, then you would not become a full 'witch'. Like a chick who grew up within its own shell. That is why you formed a labryinth within. It's quite shocking that it is fully capable of replicating and reproducing an entire city. This place we are at right now, is a world existing solely within your own soul gem."

 

[Agnaa]

"(Also, in-game numbers? They aren't from games, they are just official ratings, like those of the Fate characters) "

Whoops, my bad. As you can tell I'm not familiar with the verse at all.

 

[Kaltias]

I see, alright then. For the five PMMM girls it was in one of the Kirara Magica magazines iirc, then there are the official ratings of the Tart Magica girls in the manga itself, but nothing more unless i'm forgetting something.

In fact most magical girls don't have ratings at all, and are evaluated via their own feats/feats they directly scale from

 

[SomebodyData]

Here is some other confirmation from Portable, would go look for scans but I don't have much time to binge PMMM.

Need anything else? Like confirmation that they're all girls or something?

@Dargoo

It's done by 3rd timeline Madoka which isn't that much higher than the rest at that point. Not to mention like I keep saying Mami/4.5 is already right in the middle of both of them in terms of the ratings.

Is there any issue with the tiering system that would make you say its unreliable?

Regarding the size stuffs, so essentially its a completely arbitary and subjective thing? Like, before the system was innaccurate but at least there was an objective formula. Now we have to guess what it would be ranked?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I am going to be incredibly busy today and tomorrow. Would it be alright for me to continue discussions here on Saturday?

 

[Kaltias]

Sure, there is no hurry

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Apologies, I meant Sunday. I forgot Saturday I'm also really busy.

 

[Agnaa]

@SomebodyData Regarding the size stuffs, you're right, since any formula you can give would fail over many different scenarios. Mass energy conversion always gives ridiculously inflated results, explosion formula gives inflated results for pocket realities with a large space but few objects (and has nothing to do with the creation of a pocket reality anyway).

 

[SomebodyData]

@Agnaa I think the explosion formula stops inflating results past tier 7-C, but I think you reminded me of something that might help.

What do we need to prove mass energy conversion occurs?

 

[Kaltias]

A statement saying that it does. And pretty sure that it needs to be pretty straightforward according to our standards, so stuff like "I'll create this rock out of pure energy"

 

[Agnaa]

@SD For inflating results I meant something like a large open field with a few clouds high in the sky, where an explosion isn't really covering anything besides open air that would have taken almost no energy to create. As contrasted to an explosion calc for a pocket reality filled with lead.

This is the conclusion the thread reached, at least.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Pretty much what Agnaa said.

For smaller scale pocket realities what is inside of them should be more significant than just its size, while in the case of celestial bodies we decided to use size GIVEN that it isn't something ridiculous like two stars billions of light years apart.

The feats shouldn't be valid to begin with for PMMM but I'll discuss that later.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Basically Dargoo downplaying PMMM, just look at his avi, suspicious

 

[Kaltias]

See, the issue with that is that the pocket dimensions aren't filled with stuff only because some witches don't want them to be.

The barriers are essentially an enclosed space that contains whatever the witch wants. Homulilly's barrier encapsulates a city because that's what she was thinking about, if she wanted it to be an empty landscape it would have been that

 

[SomebodyData]

@Agnaa wouldn't that apply to any explosion in an empty space? We're not gonna downgrade the tsar bomb because it produced 50 megatons of tnt in some empty part of Russia. We're gonna have to downgrade a lot of chatacters if thats a legitmate thing.

Also the NTF formula doesn't even factor what the explosion comes in contact with, whether ot be lead or rock or air, in the first place.

@Kal guess I'm off to the searching

 

[Agnaa]

@Kal Why don't we rate those pocket dimensions as being filled with a neutron star then? We could get GBE off of that, and iirc one should be able to fit in most of them.

EDIT: From some quick searching, most are on the order of 20km in diameter, but it seems like some may go down to 10km in diameter? For reference, Patricia's barrier was given a diameter of 13km.

@SD No, because explosions aren't creation feats.