Potential Ultra Necrozma upgrade?

[Purmeenant]

I found this scan and I was wondering if this could lead to a potential upgrade for Ultra Necrozma

 

[Imaginym]

I found this scan and I was wondering if this could lead to a potential upgrade for Ultra Necrozma

Excluding The Lake Trio, Creation Trio & Arceus & possibly Eternatus & MAYBE a version of Darkrai, I'm pretty sure Ultra Necrozma already IS higher-tiered than all the other Legendary Pokemon.
As for why it's not higher-tiered than those, it doesn't have feats backing it up as having infinite, much less Universal or greater power. With only a vague statement from official promotional media that doesn't even seem 100% sure Ultra Necrozma is superior, & even leaves room to be interpreted as some Legendaries being superior, Ultra Necrozma's case is FAR from certain for being superior to all other Legendaries.
Hurting its chances is that the statement predates Eternatus, meaning Eternatus likely wasn't in consideration when the authors made that statement; Can't be stated to be superior to Eternatus if it didn't exist yet!

 

[Purmeenant]

Didn't it also get bodied by Zygarde in the manga? I haven't read the Sun and Moon manga but if it did then wouldn't that contradict the statement by the website? On the Eternatus thing Leon says that it is the most powerful Pokémon is there any validity in thay statement?

 

[Imaginym]

I'm not too knowledgeable about the manga either, myself, but I think Ultra Necrozma's feats, or at least its scaling, puts it orders of magnitude better than a lot of what Zygarde has.
Edit: Oh. Checking Zygarde's profile, 50% is 5-B, likely 4-B, with the latter part coming from scaling to Ultra Necrozma, & 100% Zygarde seems to be just plain above or comparable to Ultra Necrozma.
Eternatus, I think, may have had some statement about Infinite power & warping space time, & it has Power Nullification most Pokemon/moves can't get past, is the power source for Gigantamax/Dynamax, & although it's not as impressive, caused The Darkest Day, a storm that covered all of Galar.
Eternatus definitely isn't stronger than The Lake Trio, nor The Creation Trio, nor Arceus.
If it beats (Ultra) Necrozma or other members of The Light Trio or the Tapus or Ultra Beasts, for that matter I think, depends on the verdict on the "absorbing infinite energy & warping space time" thing.
Without that, Eternatus is somewhere in Tier 6, whereas most of Alola's Legendaries & Ultra Beasts are in Tier 4.

 

[Purmeenant]

Yeah it seems that whenever there is a statement that says "THIS IS THE MOST POWERFUL POKEMON", it always gets contradicted or isn't from a reliable source.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean, in part, I'd think it could be attributed to one or even up to several a few things:
1. Character A in-universe lacks the information to know they're wrong, despite that the author knows Character A is wrong.
2. Character A in-universe lacks the information to know they're wrong, & the author doesn't know Character A is wrong, despite that the author thinks otherwise.
3. The author hasn't thought about the topic of if they're right or wrong, & simply didn't consider correctness when creating the statement.
4. The statement is outdated, being correct when created & released, but info that didn't exist for the author/character to consider when they gave it retroactively made the statement wrong.
5. The statement is only correct from one perspective, such as being the strongest in only one aspect (Lifting vs Striking), within a certain scope (Strongest among non-Legendaries or among 1 type, etc.), strongest in atypical ways (Someone could be strongest in spirit, which isn't always associated with the kind of physical strength that may be thought of when someone says "strongest".), or within a certain region.

What an author tells you about the 'verse they create should be considered, & in my opinion, folks shouldn't be too quick to discard the information given by authors, but said information must still be scrutinized in some ways.

 

[Purmeenant]

On all of those I think 4 is the most likely in this case. But you could make an argument that it's talking game wise and not anime or manga wise if we're talking about Necrozma. For Eternatus it could either be 1 or 2.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah. In theory, there's a lot of possibilities for why other things in the franchise may contradict it. But the fact that we're told it's the strongest is still a testament to that it's very powerful because the authors considered that information the audience should know, even if the exact statement of it being the strongest isn't exactly correct under SOME considerations. (Especially if it can be argued as correct in others.)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sadly, since pokemon is a huge franchise, I don't think these statements are enough, you would have to show Necro actually beating high level legendaries first.

 

[Imaginym]

Sadly, since pokemon is a huge franchise, I don't think these statements are enough, you would have to show Necro actually beating high level legendaries first.

Ultra Necrozma isn't stronger than ALL of the Legendaries. A lot of them yes, but it's generally not by simply scaling above them; It has its own feats, & BASE Necrozma is the START of a scaling chain that others scale below or comparably to.

Necrozma

Necrozma is a Pokémon that has only been found in the Alola region. It has characteristics similar to that of the Ultra Beasts and is said to have come from another world in ancient times. It normally lies inert underground, but it awakens violently and painfully in the presence of light, which...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Attack Potency: Solar System level (Absorbed all the light out of Ultra Space, a universe) | Solar System level (Has absorbed all of the light from Solgaleo or Lunala and has become much stronger) | Solar System level (Provides light for Ultra Megalopolis and can provide the light for other worlds as well as steal it. Illuminated all of Ultra Space).

At least, not for its AP anyway. Its Speed is via scaling to Solgaleo/Lunala's speed feat(s), either Pokemon of which it defeats in a cutscene depending on game version, so it DOES have scaling to be Superior in that case.
The majority of Tapus/Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts of Alola are weaker than Necrozma & are generally part of connected scaling chains. Just not as high up as Necrozma, especially not its Dusk Mane, Dawn Wings or Ultra forms.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Oh then, if Necro has it's own feats, then what new thing would those statements bring? It seems to be standing on it's own.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Oh and just random question since I'm here: necrozoma is stated to have absorbed all the light in the universe but the page linked says he lit up the ultra space and the calc is for lighting up the ultra space.

Where is it stated that Necrozoma absorbed all the light in the universe?

 

[QuasiYuri]

He absorbed all the light in Ultra Space iirc , which should scale to him lighting it.

 

[Imaginym]

Oh and just random question since I'm here: necrozoma is stated to have absorbed all the light in the universe but the page linked says he lit up the ultra space and the calc is for lighting up the ultra space.

Where is it stated that Necrozoma absorbed all the light in the universe?

If I understand things correctly:
Bottom left panel. "That's why the blinding one consumed all the light in Ultra Space."

Oh then, if Necro has it's own feats, then what new thing would those statements bring? It seems to be standing on it's own.

If we were to take a statement like "Necrozma is the strongest Pokemon" at face value, applying it without exception & despite that doing so would likely be a No Limits Fallacy....

1. 50% & up Zygarde being comparable to or better than Necrozma would be strange if Necrozma is superior to all Pokemon, Zygarde (& thus, possibly Zygarde's formes as well.) included.
2. Necrozma would scale above Eternatus & Victini, which both have infinity related statements, putting it well above 3-A.
3. Necrozma would scale above The Lake Trio, Creation Trio & Arceus, putting it well into 2-B, if not higher.

Again, doing so would be No Limits Fallacy & not just that, but applied to a statement that, as my numbered list above brings up, has all kinds of ways for it to be applicable while still not being entirely correct, if there is such a statement.
So I'm sure you can understand why we'd take such content with a few grains of salt, so to speak.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So the reason why I asked yall about Necrozoma absorbing the light was because they didn't have a calc for the amount of light Necozoma absorbed, only for lighitng up the universe. Absorbing all the light is wayyyyy bigger feat than lighting up the universe.

Yall can check out a calc I made: https://vsbattles.com/threads/necrozoma-absorbing-the-light-of-the-universe.108514/

So yall might actually see a Ultra Necrozoma update