Potential Shizuo & Claire Upgrade

[JnSteHar002]

"Sky By Fire" Feat

This thread is to determine if the feat above can be used and who would scale to it.

A) This has been accepted but it is a canon crossover feat that would also be a massive jump (9-A to 7-B)

B) It should scale to Claire as it's confirmed that he and Shizuo are equal but there might be some who may potentially scale through Shizuo, like Simon and possibly characters in To Aru Majutsu no Index

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Hmm
Do we have any indication how much Shizuo is holding back in-game?

 

[JnSteHar002]

Hmm
Do we have any indication how much Shizuo is holding back in-game?

I don't know; it doesn't seem like he was particularly holding back or anything

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I don't know; it doesn't seem like he was particularly holding back or anything

The issue is he's always holding back unless it's explicitly stated otherwise. Meaning that will determine whether this feat would be his limit or if he'd scale above it.

 

[JnSteHar002]

The issue is he's always holding back unless it's explicitly stated otherwise. Meaning that will determine whether this feat would be his limit or if he'd scale above it.

Good Point! I'll look into it and see if I can find anything; maybe FunbariVoid might have some input on this.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Looking into it, I found the phrase “…grit his teeth…” as Shizuo was about to perform this feat. To me, it sounds like he wasn’t holding back but he wasn’t pushing himself “past his limits” in a sense.

 

[DivineAura44]

If Heiwajima was truly that strong I don't think he'd still have problems killing Izaya (regular fit genius with great knife skill) There's also the fact that there is no feat in the series near this (from my knowledge) and he's been shot before and it drew blood from him. His character is supposed to be the equivalent of if a human wasn't limited by their brain. Humans aren't just holding back the power to destroy cities. That's my take on it

 

[Creaturemaster971]

If Heiwajima was truly that strong I don't think he'd still have problems killing Izaya (regular fit genius with great knife skill) There's also the fact that there is no feat in the series near this (from my knowledge) and he's been shot before and it drew blood from him. His character is supposed to be the equivalent of if a human wasn't limited by their brain. Humans aren't just holding back the power to destroy cities. That's my take on it

Shizuo doesn't have any legit problems killing Izaya, because he doesn't want to kill.
When Izaya finally went too far, Shizuo tanked everything he had prepped and like, powderized part of his skeleton with a glancing blow or something.
And Izaya is most definitely not just regularly fit. Iirc there's another author statement that Izaya would be among the god tiers like Shizuo and Claire if he bothered focusing on combat.

And yeah he isn't limited by his brain, but he's also an inexplicable medical miracle that heals denser and stronger with every injury, and constantly gets stronger, with the limits very undefined to the point that it's debated if he has an upper limit.

But again, much like Claire Stanfield, it's left intentionally very vague.
Incredible statements, in-universe and out, with too little to back them up directly.

 

[DivineAura44]

Shizuo doesn't have any legit problems killing Izaya, because he doesn't want to kill.

Were we watching the same show?

When Izaya finally went too far, Shizuo tanked everything he had prepped and like, powderized part of his skeleton with a glancing blow or something.

Maybe I didn't see this scene, do you know what episode and like a timestamp?

And Izaya is most definitely not just regularly fit. Iirc there's another author statement that Izaya would be among the god tiers like Shizuo and Claire if he bothered focusing on combat.

I have to see that statement.

And yeah he isn't limited by his brain, but he's also an inexplicable medical miracle that heals denser and stronger with every injury, and constantly gets stronger, with the limits very undefined to the point that it's debated if he has an upper limit.

Yeah like I said, he's a human with but he doesn't subconsciously hold himself back. He is constantly at 100% as if he was always on adrenaline. And just like a human, he can have his cells destroyed so they can grow back stronger.

And this still doesn't address the fact that he was shot by a regular ass gun. This feat seems like a complete outlier. I find it very hard to believe Shizuo has the power to destroy a city.

 

[JnSteHar002]

To be fair, all the gun shot really did was break Shizuo’s skin; it was point blank and that’s all the damage it did. The only reason Shizuo even knew he was shot was b/c he slipped on his own blood and/or the rain, at which point, he heads to Shinra to get bandaged up and then go after the guys that shot him.

Also, there are other feats/statements that, albeit are not city level to the best of my knowledge, put him higher than a human that isn’t holding himself back

• Getting hit by a mid size transport truck and w/in about a minute, gets up, picks up said truck and throws it into the air and a couple dozen feet away
• The Saika fight
• Kicking/Dribbling a car like it’s a soccer ball to block bullets
• The police haven’t kept him in prison for numerous reasons, one being no jury or judge would believe what he’s capable of

• Also b/c they probably can’t do anything. It makes me wonder how much strength/combat ability a person would need for the authorities/government to be like “There’s nothing we can do. Be on your way and please don’t hurt us! ”

While Shizuo goes into his sees red rage moments, he can still hold back enough to avoid killing. It’s a little tricky for me when it comes to Izaya. While Shizuo absolutely hates Izaya, he doesn’t always have “I want/have to kill this guy at all costs” mindset in his head. Shizuo has even said he’d be fine if Izaya was alive and simply left him alone for the rest of their lives.

 

[DivineAura44]

Still just not seeing it I'm sorry. He has no other feats in that realm and him not feeling pain from the gunshot doesn't ignore the fact that it was able to draw his blood. He's clearly not supposed to be portrayed as a character with city level strength.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Still just not seeing it I'm sorry. He has no other feats in that realm and him not feeling pain from the gunshot doesn't ignore the fact that it was able to draw his blood. He's clearly not supposed to be portrayed as a character with city level strength.

No need to apologize; It's a fair point/opinion as it is a massive power jump but I can still see it along w/Creaturemaster971, I still assume

 

[JnSteHar002]

Anything else to talk about?

 

[DivineAura44]

Nothing really. It's just a wait to see who will evaluate the thread (the curse of being a smaller verse on the wiki)

 

[JnSteHar002]

Nothing really. It's just a wait to see who will evaluate the thread (the curse of being a smaller verse on the wiki)

Sad but true; messaged most of the verse's supporters and haven't heard much from them. Except for you and Creaturemaster971, thanks for being here guys! Also, I really can't think of any of characters that would scale.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Ah I'm back.

I'll have to try and see if I can find that Izaya statement, and the thing to note is that Shizuo doesn't subconsciously hold himself back, but he consciously holds himself back, literally all the time, because he doesn't want to kill anyone.
When he stopped doing so he very much almost killed Izaya. I'll have to check when exactly it occurs.

Shizuo, much like Claire, is a character that's meant to be portrayed as massively superior to the rest of the series, but we never see their full abilities because they hold back for one reason or another. Shizuo to avoid killing, Claire because he isn't serious enough.

Plus, of course, I obligatorily have to bring up that it's supported by author statements.
That Claire could solo most of the verse but would end up locked in a stalemate with Ronnie and Shizuo, with no clear winner.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Well here's the wiki page for it
I'll have to try and figure out what episode it was

 

[JnSteHar002]

Ah I'm back.

I'll have to try and see if I can find that Izaya statement, and the thing to note is that Shizuo doesn't subconsciously hold himself back, but he consciously holds himself back, literally all the time, because he doesn't want to kill anyone.
When he stopped doing so he very much almost killed Izaya. I'll have to check when exactly it occurs.

Shizuo, much like Claire, is a character that's meant to be portrayed as massively superior to the rest of the series, but we never see their full abilities because they hold back for one reason or another. Shizuo to avoid killing, Claire because he isn't serious enough.

Plus, of course, I obligatorily have to bring up that it's supported by author statements.
That Claire could solo most of the verse but would end up locked in a stalemate with Ronnie and Shizuo, with no clear winner.

Glad to hear you back buddy

 

[DivineAura44]

Ah I'm back.

I'll have to try and see if I can find that Izaya statement, and the thing to note is that Shizuo doesn't subconsciously hold himself back, but he consciously holds himself back, literally all the time, because he doesn't want to kill anyone.

Alright, that's fine.

When he stopped doing so he very much almost killed Izaya. I'll have to check when exactly it occurs.

So you admit a city level character had intent to kill a wall level character and failed? You understand why I find that hard to believe right?

Shizuo, much like Claire, is a character that's meant to be portrayed as massively superior to the rest of the series, but we never see their full abilities because they hold back for one reason or another. Shizuo to avoid killing, Claire because he isn't serious enough.

Yes. But it's clear that the gap isn't as big as you portray. As I said before he's intended to be a human who doesn't limit himself. Not some weapon of mass destruction. He was literally stabbed as I've brought up multiple times.

Plus, of course, I obligatorily have to bring up that it's supported by author statements.
That Claire could solo most of the verse but would end up locked in a stalemate with Ronnie and Shizuo, with no clear winner.

I agree that Claire scales to Shizuo, but Shizuo doesn't scale to a one off crossover feat my guy.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Yes. But it's clear that the gap isn't as big as you portray. As I said before he's intended to be a human who doesn't limit himself. Not some weapon of mass destruction. He was literally stabbed as I've brought up multiple times.

I believe you are severely underestimating the capabilities this man and Claire for that manner.

I agree that Claire scales to Shizuo, but Shizuo doesn't scale to a one off crossover feat my guy.

While it is a crossover feat, it was canon, to the best of my knowledge and I think we've had crazier scaling on this wiki, if I'm being honest.

 

[DivineAura44]

I believe you are severely underestimating the capabilities this man and Claire for that manner.

And that's fine you are entitled to your own belief, I just believe 7-C far overestimates a character with 1 showing of that power and then other consistent showings of 9-A and the durability of 9-A.

While it is a crossover feat, it was canon, to the best of my knowledge and I think we've had crazier scaling on this wiki, if I'm being honest.

I'm aware it's canon, it's just that crossovers (even when canon) tend to far bring up a characters ability for the purpose of not having one verse being completely left behind.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'm aware it's canon, it's just that crossovers (even when canon) tend to far bring up a characters ability for the purpose of not having one verse being completely left behind.

Not knowledgeable at all with the thread but this part looks like the shovel knight and God of war thing.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Not knowledgeable at all with the thread but this part looks like the shovel knight and God of war thing.

Looking into this so I'm not sure how applicable this would be at the moment.

 

[-BANLK-]

Btw Ladd has a casual 8A feat, "A casual punch from Ladd created such an impact that the shockwaves from it made even those inside Alcatraz prison building feel as if an earthquake had occured, the impact also made Leeza fall from the building roof since she found it impossible to keep ker balance." Tier 7 Claire and Shizuo is not unreasonable since there are in-universe and author statements about them being massively above the other cast, except for Ronny who is basically a universal reality warper.

 

[DivineAura44]

Btw Ladd has a casual 8A feat, "A casual punch from Ladd created such an impact that the shockwaves from it made even those inside Alcatraz prison building feel as if an earthquake had occured, the impact also made Leeza fall from the building roof since she found it impossible to keep ker balance." Tier 7 Claire and Shizuo is not unreasonable since there are in-universe and author statements about them being massively above the other cast, except for Ronny who is basically a universal reality warper.

Was that calced?

 

[-BANLK-]

Donttalk had calced it

 

[DivineAura44]

Donttalk had calced it

I'll take your word for it. Still not enough for me but count me as neutral.

 

[-BANLK-]

We can do a recalc since I don't think DT is active anymore. It won't be lower than 8B for sure tho.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Baccano! Calc: Shaking Alcatraz

vsbattles.fandom.com

Couldn't find DT's version but found this one by Mr. Bambu

 

[DivineAura44]

The difference between that and City Level is crazy tho. It's 2 feats which vary hard in scale vs lots of feats around the same level.

 

[-BANLK-]

Yes but Claire is magnitudes of level above Ladd.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

So you admit a city level character had intent to kill a wall level character and failed? You understand why I find that hard to believe right?

TBH it's already weird for him to fail since he's 9-A.

And again, I am more of the opinion that Shizuo is potentially Tier 7, since unlike Ronnie I don't think that's his current state, and unlike Claire I don't think he can amp himself that fast.

Yes. But it's clear that the gap isn't as big as you portray. As I said before he's intended to be a human who doesn't limit himself. Not some weapon of mass destruction. He was literally stabbed as I've brought up multiple times.

If those stabs were tier 7 he would have just taken them anyway and started throwing tier 7 punches.

But in all honestly, that is consistent for the verse as well. Where holding back somehow lets people way weaker injure you. Claire has been wounded by people several tiers below him when he hasn't bothered dodging, and much like Shizuo he's constantly holding back.
Also Ladd Russo shaking Alcatraz and making craters with a punch and being just fine, but then getting his knuckles scraped and scabbed when he punches through a normal dude's skull. Durability is weird all around in this verse.

I agree that Claire scales to Shizuo, but Shizuo doesn't scale to a one off crossover feat my guy.

What about them both scaling to Ronnie then? Because he also has feats at tier 7 and higher.


I am very much of the opinion that Claire and Shizuo just both have a form of Reactive Power Level that they utilize differently.
If we insist on not scaling their full potential to Ronnie, this crossover feat could work as an assumed upper limit.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Also I can't find that Izaya statement so maybe I was indeed misremembering something

 

[DivineAura44]

TBH it's already weird for him to fail since he's 9-A.

Maybe, but it's also far more realistic with Izaya's intellect.

And again, I am more of the opinion that Shizuo is potentially Tier 7, since unlike Ronnie I don't think that's his current state, and unlike Claire I don't think he can amp himself that fast.

Once again, I have no problem with you having that opinion, I personally just don't find it likely.

But in all honestly, that is consistent for the verse as well. Where holding back somehow lets people way weaker injure you. Claire has been wounded by people several tiers below him when he hasn't bothered dodging, and much like Shizuo he's constantly holding back.
Also Ladd Russo shaking Alcatraz and making craters with a punch and being just fine, but then getting his knuckles scraped and scabbed when he punches through a normal dude's skull. Durability is weird all around in this verse.

7-C with 10-B durability compromise?

What about them both scaling to Ronnie then? Because he also has feats at tier 7 and higher.

Once again, those are few and far between.
Also I've never watched the entirety of Baccano (I don't even remember the part I did watch) so you'll have to explain to me how they scale to Ronnie.

I am very much of the opinion that Claire and Shizuo just both have a form of Reactive Power Level that they utilize differently.

If we insist on not scaling their full potential to Ronnie, this crossover feat could work as an assumed upper limit

I'd be fine with RPL but I don't see their limit being as high as Tier 7. Tier 8 definitely isn't out of the question for me personally though

 

[JnSteHar002]

When it comes to Izaya, I consider the possibility that his intelligence along w/his insane reflexes and agility allow him to "limp" through most of the insanely deadly blows even though he has little to no martial arts training.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

7-C with 10-B durability compromise?

9-B, up to High 3-A via RPL

Once again, those are few and far between.

I mean.
Ronnie does some insane bullshit every time he decides to actually do something.
They're few and far between because Ronnie doing anything is few and far between.

Also I've never watched the entirety of Baccano (I don't even remember the part I did watch) so you'll have to explain to me how they scale to Ronnie.

In-universe, there are a few statements that imply that somehow Ronnie and Claire are of similar threat level, and people being able to sense that.
I can actually get those scans, it'll just be a bit til I have access to the books again
Most of it is a lot of flowery language being used to hype up Claire as just being fundamentally beyond the rest of Baccano, but the hype is backed up by the context of the people who are saying it, the narrator agreeing, and the sheer fact that unlike Shizuo, Claire is never really properly hurt by anyone in a straight fight unless he wants it to happen, like with Chris.

I'd be fine with RPL but I don't see their limit being as high as Tier 7. Tier 8 definitely isn't out of the question for me personally though

I'd be fine with a tier 8 compromise but I feel like it's still a bit silly to assume anything we've seen is even close to their upper limits, with how the story presents them.
But if it at least gets them out of being in the same tier as people who are supposed to be insects in comparison like Ladd then I can settle for that.
(Kinda makes me wish Shizuo had made a bigger tornado when he fought all the Sayakas rip)

 

[-BANLK-]

Btw Ronny has a tier 7 feat of parting clouds of NY. Also we can compromise and put it as at least 7-C (Ladd's feat) likely higher (Shizuo's cross-scaling). Also them being hurt by bullets is similar to Marvel street level case.

 

[-BANLK-]

Reactive power level can be justified with Shizuo getting stronger after every injury and Claire upgrading his physical attributes through pure will power also him stating that he is able to do everything he can imagine including stuff which are considered physically impossible.

 

[DivineAura44]

I still don't like city level for Shizuo but there seems to be backing for it and everyone here seems to disagree with me so I'll just go along with it.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Sorry for taking so long; have to do this from a work computer as my laptop's broken and phone has been acting up.

I still don't like city level for Shizuo but there seems to be backing for it and everyone here seems to disagree with me so I'll just go along with it.

I'd be fine with a tier 8 compromise but I feel like it's still a bit silly to assume anything we've seen is even close to their upper limits, with how the story presents them.
But if it at least gets them out of being in the same tier as people who are supposed to be insects in comparison like Ladd then I can settle for that.
(Kinda makes me wish Shizuo had made a bigger tornado when he fought all the Sayakas rip)

As much as I'm for tier 7, I'd be interested in going over a tier 8 compromise. I really want to be assured everyone here isn't feeling "strong-armed" into a decision. Although, I'm not sure what feat that would be. Is this referring to a new value from a re-calc of Ladd's Alcatraz shaking feat or another one I'm not aware of?