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Post Flashpoint Captain Atom potential upgrade and Doctor Manhattan Downgrade (ish?)

Confluctor

VS Battles
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So, I recently made a file for New 52 Cap Atom but there is a slight problem with his AP section. Currently, it's listed as;
At least Low 7-B, likely far higher, far higher with absorption.
The reason I have him at Low 7-B is because he was more powerful than Firestorm, whose semi-serious blast could destroy a city (a direct statement from Captain Atom) - Fury of Firestorm #15. However, Ant (and I) believe that it should be far higher than this, especially since he was able to overpower a team of JL. Although for the life of me I cannot remember which comic/series it happened in and which team he fought. If someone remembers that story arc, please let me know as soon as possible. DC wiki doesn't list them for some reasons.

Ant suggested the following;
Maybe "At least 4-B when restricting himself, at least Low 2-C at his peak" or somesuch, by scaling from being vastly superior to the Justice League, and being able to destroy all of time and space at his peak?
The reason for his 4-B is the one mentioned above, plus in Fall and Rise of Captain Atom Vol 1 1, a weakened Cap Atom's Quantum Flare proved too much for Hal Jordan.

Additionally, in Doomsday Clock Vol 1 9, he one shotted Doctor Manhattan. I did mention to Ant that the story was too inconsistent so we can't use it for scaling, but thinking back on it and looking through some Watchmen stuff, I realised Doctor Manhattan's physicals are actually kind of low. Guy Gardner broke his neck, despite Guy being very determined to hurt him. He even says he didn't want to kill him in one punch. Moments later, Doctor Manhattan returns, more evolved than he was before and he tanks attacks from some 4-Bs listed on the wiki, like Zatanna and Etrigan. Now, I know magic and things are hax based and all, and Doc M does get hit by it before he manipulates it, but I think it is possible to say Cap Atom > the others. Especially since Swamp Thing was also helping (?) them against Doc M. In any case, Doc M also tanked attacks from Barda and Black Alice (or maybe someone else, magic is really not my thing) as well as Supergirl and the lanterns. The only one who did any (good) damage was Cap Atom. Also, Doc M seemed extremely shocked (and maybe somewhat fearful, idk the expressions in this comic are kinda hard to grasp) when Cap Atom joined the battle. So, I think it's safe to say to set his AP to "4-B" or "At least 4-B."


The reason for his Low 2-C is, in Captain Atom Vol 3 8 - 10, we see that Captain Atom will potentially leave his humanity behind and embrace his Godhood and in doing so, he reaches his full potential, which becomes a time-space destroying energy monster. In addition, in the same comic, present day Nathaniel was able to absorb his future selves and briefly contend against his God-self. Although the fight was cut short because his God Self was erased from existence, so we didn't see how well he would have done in the long run.

My proposal;
  • We set Doctor Manhattan's durability to 4-B, or at least 4-B, since his durability feats are very minimal.
  • That means we can upscale New 52 Cap Atom from 4-B Lanterns, Supergirl, and Doctor Manhattan's durability.
  • The Low 2-C stuff... well, that's up for discussion. I do not know what to do with it.

Doctor Manhattan proposals:
  • AP = "Unknown physically, Low 1-C with powers". As I said, he barely has any physical feats, and as we saw in Doomsday Clock, his physical body is much weaker.
  • Durability "At least 4-B"
    • Also in #12 of Doomsday Clock, he thought Superman's punch would be enough to kill him. In addition, he also thought this brimstone looking guy might be able to hurt him too.
  • Possible Regen upgrade to High. He comes back from basically nothing here, as a lowball, I propose High.

So, what do you guys think?
 
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From what I remember he overpowered an entire JL team in a Justice League comic book, and the Martian Manhunter had to use telepathy to deal with Atom, as the team was unable to deal with him otherwise.

However, I think that Doctor Manhattan recognised Captain Atom as a counterpart to himself, and was shocked because of that, not due to being afraid.
 
Yes. I also have problems finding it via Google and the DC Comics wiki.
 
I found it. It seems to have been an alternative future. Sorry. My mistake. We obviously cannot scale from that.

 
I found it. It seems to have been an alternative future. Sorry. My mistake. We obviously cannot scale from that.

The full issue list it as part of the New 52 continuity I think.
To being more specific, the cover say it is and I not sure if that will count as a alternative future.
 
I will read that soon and hopefully it's useful. Even if it's not, I can salvage some p&a from it at least.


Also someone sent me this on my wall. Apparently firestorm has big bang potential. And the firestorm he fought was going alll out.
 
I will read that soon and hopefully it's useful. Even if it's not, I can salvage some p&a from it at least.


Also someone sent me this on my wall. Apparently firestorm has big bang potential. And the firestorm he fought was going alll out.

Huh… the context make it seems like Firestorm couldn’t handle many people in his own matrix to the point he will been overloaded…

Not sure if it will count as being under his own power.
 
Huh… the context make it seems like Firestorm couldn’t handle many people in his own matrix to the point he will been overloaded…

Not sure if it will count as being under his own power.
Yeah that's the version Cap fought. They had three people and we're going all out.

Also I do wish we have more context aside from those three scans.
Regarding?
 
Against Cap? It was on screen. Fury of Firestorm #15. I would also read #14 for extra context.
Tbh, it is a pain in the neck considering how we have different versions of the same characters is kinda what make it a pain to find consistent AP feats as I am pretty sure Firestorm has some feats to his name in New 52 at least.
 
I am not sure what you mean by the first one?

In any case, the problem is, like captain atom Firestorm is also a hax based character, and doesn't have too many raw feats of destruction. So we have to somewhat rely on the greater context of the feats and the statements around it.
 
I am not sure what you mean by the first one?

In any case, the problem is, like captain atom Firestorm is also a hax based character, and doesn't have too many raw feats of destruction. So we have to somewhat rely on the greater context of the feats and the statements around it.
Oh, I was referring to the multiple timelines stuff and all that.

Anyway, I see although does that also have to do with the heat revision too?
 
Doctor Manhattan is a glasscanon character and I believe his durability should be unknown instead of 4B.
 
Doctor Manhattan is a glasscanon character and I believe his durability should be unknown instead of 4B.
Except he legit has a 4-B durability before evolution. This is 4-B Gardner he is fighting I keep forgetting he doesn't have a file here
 
I am not sure what you mean by the first one?

In any case, the problem is, like captain atom Firestorm is also a hax based character, and doesn't have too many raw feats of destruction. So we have to somewhat rely on the greater context of the feats and the statements around it.
Anyway, now that is out of the way, I think this needs a different CRT for sure given the original proposal was for Captain Atom and Doctor Manhattan.
 
So do we have sufficient agreement for this then?
 
Don't think so. I am not sure if we have talked about the durability section yet.


So far, AP has been accepted and likely striking strength too.
AP; At least 4-B in restricted state (More powerful than the Lanterns, Supergirl, Etrigan. One-shotted Doctor Manhattan.), higher with Absorption, Low 2-C in unrestricted state (If he were to stop holding back and embrace his true power, he will become a universe eating energy monster.)

His evolved form will have similar statistics essentially.


As for Doctor Manhattan, I don't think anyone has disagreed with his changes, aside from Teezar.
 
I'm not up to date with the vast majority of marvel and dc comics, don't ping for these kind of things for a while that is getting annoying.
 
I mean, Dr Manhattan in general has always been a hard character to judge; he has powers that dwarf even those of 5-D imps like Mr Mxy one day, and he has doubts of even being able to fight Superman throughout Doomsday clock. Making him a glass cannon would help with issues of people trying to circular scale all the way down to Rebirth Superman being Tier 1 on general. Though, I'm also not certain if Doctor Manhattan is also one of those characters known to use physical embodiments otherwise far weaker physically than his true self. So I'm going to remain neutral but leaning towards some notes that his durability in some way or form is now where near as potent as his magic.

The Captain Atom stuff also looks good to me.
 
owever, Ant (and I) believe that it should be far higher than this, especially since he was able to overpower a team of JL. Although for the life of me I cannot remember which comic/series it happened in and which team he fought. I
Yeah we're not upgrading someone because of a vague memory.
 
Except he legit has a 4-B durability before evolution. This is 4-B Gardner he is fighting I keep forgetting he doesn't have a file here
4B before what Evolution? We know Manhattan durability is very low especially as he doesn't deal with physical attacks. He has fought several DC heralds and got his body destroyed by them but regenerated again.
Plus do you mean when he fought gardener in doomsday clock?
 
Yeah we're not upgrading someone because of a vague memory.
No offense, but did you even read the rest of the thread? We already took care of that problem...

4B before what Evolution? We know Manhattan durability is very low especially as he doesn't deal with physical attacks. He has fought several DC heralds and got his body destroyed by them but regenerated again.
Plus do you mean when he fought gardener in doomsday clock?
What I mean by evolved is that from the way stuff went down, it was implied he was better than before or some shit.

And yeah, doomsday clock, as I linked it in the original post.


And again, read the issue, aside from Gardner and cap atom, no one was doing anything. That's another reason I said evolve.
 
I mean, Dr Manhattan in general has always been a hard character to judge; he has powers that dwarf even those of 5-D imps like Mr Mxy one day, and he has doubts of even being able to fight Superman throughout Doomsday clock. Making him a glass cannon would help with issues of people trying to circular scale all the way down to Rebirth Superman being Tier 1 on general. Though, I'm also not certain if Doctor Manhattan is also one of those characters known to use physical embodiments otherwise far weaker physically than his true self. So I'm going to remain neutral but leaning towards some notes that his durability in some way or form is now where near as potent as his magic.

The Captain Atom stuff also looks good to me.
Most of his powers comes from hax, we already do this for characters like molecule man, for example (for the lack of a better example). Their physicals are really low but with powers and hax, they are some of the most powerful in the entire verse.

Right now the best durability feat Doc Manhattan has shown is 4-B, so that's why we are scaling cap atom from it.
 
offense, but did you even read the rest of the thread? We already took care of that problem...
If you mean the SG/Lantern scaling that's a different topic. We're not using the JL as a justification without a source, whic was the point of my response.
 
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