Post-Crisis Superman vs Buu Saga Goku.

[Alana_Fey]

They are mostly equal, High 4-C vs 4-B. Try to make an argument for in character and bloodlusted.

Round 1.- Speed Equalized

Round 2.- Speed unequalized.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Well... this Superman's weakness is literally Ki so...

 

[Alana_Fey]

Alright. Tell your friends so we can add this to their pages.

 

[Alexcar3000]

Alright. Tell your friends so we can add this to their pages.

We need a lot more input. More votes, etc.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

I would cast my with Goku, however, as this is considered a controversial match-up, it's probably going to be closed

 

[Maria_Lucero]

I will go with Goku on this one.

But, you know, it's controversial.

At least you have 3 votes for goku, right?

 

[SSJ4Hiei]

Goku because of DC and techniques.

 

[ShutUp123]

Superman had superior stamina but Goku had superior DC and martial arts skills.It would be close but at the end Goku could knock him out with one giant kamehameha where as superman can out last Goku but Goku is a smart fighter so he will more likely end this fight knowing superman not getting tired so Goku wins in close battle.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

i think goku wins due to martial arts and superior AP and dura


at this point, goku should be like several hundred x post crisis superman's AP and dura

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Welp, since this fight is still up I'm now going to do my own analysis as to why Goku wins. I've considered this fight from every single possible angle, every single stat, every single ability and every single permutation of abilities taken into effect and the verdict I've reached is that Goku wins I'll now do a long analysis in order to shown why Goku wins both rounds starting with the stats

Strength/Power - OK so while Superman has displayed more raw feats of physical strength than Goku (moving planets and the Mageddon gears etc.) Goku more than makes up for it with his absurdly high damage output. Cell was at solar system level when he fought Gohan and lost to him. Goku at SSj2 was stated to be even stronger than that when he fought Majin Vegeta

http://www.mymanga.me/manga/Dragon_Ball/458/8

And SSJ3 surpasses even this. Further evidence of Goku's power through actual feats is when he punched through King Kai's planet, which had a force of gravity 10 times that of Earth's and a radius of 31.5 m. The surface gravity of a body is given by the formula g = (4/3) pi * G * density * radius We can plug all the numbers in to find the density and then number is 1.11x10^{10} kg/m^{3}. That's about 10 times as dense as a white dwarf star. So in terms of AP Goku definitely wins

Speed/Reflexes Surprisingly, this one isn't as clear cut as people think, even with speed unequalized. Namely because of the discrepancy between combat speed and travel speed. Superman's best travel speed was arguably flying from Vega to Earth in a few mins. On the high end this gives a figure of 13 million times the speed of light. However, what most people fail to realize is that Vega has a much higher energy output than the Sun, thereby boosting his abilities. His combat speed has been calculated as being 320 times the speed of light. However, I would say Goku has the combat speed and reaction time to deal with it. Somebody estimated Goku's reaction time to be in the Femtosecond range.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...ime-reaction-has-minimum-quantificati-754608/

This puts SSJ2 Gohan's reaction time at 0.1 picoseconds, and then if we count the fact that Gohan was blitzed by Buu and the SSJ3 Goku blitzed Buu, this would give SSJ3 Goku a reaction time of 3.5 femtoseconds. I would say that this is feasible given that fact that Dragon Ball characters have consistently shown higher reaction time than raw speed. So Goku should be able to react to and perceive Superman in close combat, but Superman has the movement speed to keep Goku on his toes. So it's actually a tie in terms of speed.

Durability So Goku again takes the advantage due to him fighting against both Fat and Kid Buu, which puts his durability in SS levels as well. Superman's best feat is tanking multiple Supernovas, however it still takes roughly 1,000 Supernovas to completely destroy the Solar System in an omni-directional blast. So Goku takes it. So Goku has the AP and Durability advantage, but Superman has the speed advantage (though Goku's reaction time helps him avoid a speed blitz), let's now look at other factors

Next we look at the main deciding factor in this fight, which is Superman's connection to the Sun. Provided that Superman has a constant connection to the Sun he can increase his stats with no upward limit. The question then is would Goku be able to figure out Superman's connection to the Sun and would he be able to deal with it? True, Superman could fly closer to the sun and even dive in there to increase his abilities, however, Goku has a number of ways to counter that. Firstly when considering the way Superman's durability works, he has a bio-electric aura that surrounds his body, everytime Superman tanks a blow his bio-matrix absorbs an equivalent amount of solar energy stored in his cells to endure it. This is how Doomsday was able to beat Superman in their first encounter and why certain people (like Darkseid) have been able to beat him before. If someone can exert more damage faster than his body can absorb energy, he's in trouble. Granted if he flew into the Sun he'd have an advantage. I believe it takes 15 mins for him to triple his power when inside the Sun, so it takes him 5 mins to increase his power by 100% in a yellow main sequence star (faster for a blue one). However, even in this case there are a couple of things Goku could do. Firstly, given his durability, he should theoretically be able to dive in after Superman and punch him out of it. I know that Goku can't survive in the vacuum of space indefintely, however, he has shown the ability to fight in space for prolonged periods of time, like against Beerus. It's feasible that Goku could fight Superman in space for a while and when the time comes he could move to a planet with Instant Transmission. Also another thing to consider is his ability to sense ki. He can sense the energy of all natural life forms, meaning that it's highly likely he'd be able to figure out Superman's connection to the Sun (he'd be able to feel Superman's power increasing as he got closer to the Sun). If Goku managed to figure it out before Superman dived into the Sun he could use instant transmission to move Superman to an area without sunlight. In this case where Superman entered the Sun then Goku still has a counter for that, namely the Spirit bomb. In the time that it takes Superman to power up from the Sundip Goku could use instant transmission to move somewhere across the universe and gather enough energy to match Superman's increase in power. Now I've heard many people claim that the Spirit Bomb is ineffective against those who are good, but even then there are still some problems with that. Recall that in the Saiyan Saga that Goku had to tell Gohan to deflect the spirit bomb, if the bomb doesn't effect those with no evil then why did Goku bother telling Gohan to deflect it? Most likely that someone with no evil ki could deflect the blast, but they would have to know to bounce it back. But even then Goku could potentially use the energy in another way, recall in the Super Android 13 film that he absorbed the Spirit Bomb's energy to increase his power. Granted, this only happened in a film and should therefore be considered non-canon, however, there are several instances of such events occurring in Dragon Ball. In Battle of Gods, for instance, not only did Goku stop Beerus' strongest attack, he also absorbed the energy from it. Plus consider in the Frieza fight Piccolo successfully absorbed ki from both Krillan and Gohan

http://mangayou.com/*********/dragon-ball-1/reader?page=328

Meaning it's likely that Goku can absorb the energy from the bomb. Oh and before anyone mentions it, instant transmission does NOT require concentrated focus to work, it requires a ki signature to lock on to, once the person senses the signature they can move to said source instantly. The reason it failed in the Buu saga was because the massive ki blast of Buu's was blotting out Goku's ability to sense a ki signature. In fact Goku has used instant transmission under pressure quite a few times, against Cell

http://mangamoon.com/dragonball/chapter-400/7/Against

Kid Buu

http://www.***********.net/dragon-ball/511/6

And against Beerus (he spammed it in that case) This grants his a huge range of options in combat, it allows Goku to take Superman away from the Sun, and it allows him to bypass Superman's speed With regards to Superman's superior intellect, indeed he is academically smarter, but Goku is a genius when it comes to fighting. Goku has the ability to analyse an opponent's fighting style and is extremely adept at finding an opponent's weakness, consider for instance this fight with Tien

http://mangayou.com/*********/dragon-ball-1/reader?page=185

or during his fight against Tao

http://mangayou.com/*********/dragon-ball-1/reader?page=97

These are a few examples among many others. When comparing the two I'm inclined to say that Goku's combat experience and combat intelligence, give him the edge over Superman's academic intelligence. Put it this way, who would you trust to come up with a winning strategy, a university professor or a battle-hardened general? Now in the case of going up against each other in a fight where neither has any prior knowledge of one another then we have to look at fighting styles and how both of them typically deal with unknowns and new opposition. Superman's fighting skill again tends to fluctuate wildly depending on the writer's interpretation of him. On the average he tends to be skilled as a fighter, however, no where near as much as Goku. When comparing how both would do in a straight up fight the advantage again goes to Goku. Goku's fighting style is unlike anything that Superman has fought before. His style of fighting is based on Kamisenin-Ryu which is not strictly a martial art at all. It is the outward expression of his physical prowess and ability to react to his opponent, with each fight specifically honed to his opponent's skill set.

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v03/c032/8.html

What makes Goku such an amazing martial artist is his ability to perceive his opponent and learn their strategies and moves instantly even after just a single viewing. Here are some examples

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/3.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/4.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/6.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v04/c048/7.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c132/6.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c132/7.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v11/c132/10.html

Among many others He's also used the environment in combat to defeat his opponents before further evidence that he'd take Superman away from the Sun

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v06/c065/7.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v06/c065/8.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v06/c065/9.html http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v06/c065/10.html

Now I've heard people claim that Goku would allow Superman to dive into the Sun and increase his power, due to his supposed tendency to avoid unfair advantages, well the only time Goku has ever really done that is when he's sure he can win. In the case of Frieza prior to going Super Saiyan Goku knew that Frieza was still at 50% power but still tried to destroy him with the spirit bomb. After going Super Saiyan Goku did indeed let Frieza reach 100%, partly for wanting to see Frieza's full power, but it was more to do with wanting to avenge Krillin, he wanted to humiliate Frieza by beating him at his best (at the time Goku didn't know that Krillin could be revived)

http://www.*************/manga/dragon_ball/v22/c321/4.html http://www.*************/manga/dragon_ball/v22/c325/9.html

In the case of his fight against Superman here's what I see happening, after fighting for a while Superman ends up in the Sun. Goku realises the connection between Supes and the Sun and absorbs ki from a spirit bomb to counter it. As Superman's about to clash with Goku, he uses instant transmission to take Superman somewhere without sunlight (like a place in the afterlife) Goku then says something like "I figured out your connection to the Sun, here there's no sunlight to charge you. We're about even so now it's just a fight to the finish to see who's better" One other note to mention is Goku's use of ki, an alternate spelling of the word is chi. Superman has no experience in dealing with chi. In fact as people probably already know Lex Luthor in one story had a theory that chi could cripple or kill the Man of Steel

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385959-4428086238-wk7sl.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385960-7313068894-2rp9t.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385961-6913372998-vo6ek.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385962-3650973209-727xx.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385963-3146575479-x0u03.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385964-5672824589-ivz43.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385965-0175811982-yi0b6.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385966-4503433335-vginn.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385967-3095700491-30vls.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385968-7552694078-2aflk.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385976-2515368493-kecfh.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385977-5685574274-33kre.jpg http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111213729/4385978-7926660970-29d7n.jpg

Now a crucial point in this point is the very definition of chi. Chi in this manner is said to be an Earth energy, similar to the way that ki is described in the Dragon Ball universe, as a natural energy possessed by all living things

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki

Meaning that the two are very similar. Even if one assumes that it's only speculation if Lex was right or not there's no doubt that Superman would at least be vulnerable to ki in the same way he's vulnerable to magic (he not weak to magic, just vulnerable). One also needs to take into account the sheer overwhelming diversity of the ki attacks. He can create beams that change direction in mid-flight, fire off multiple blasts in every direction, produce invisible ki blasts (kiai blasts from his eyes and body), create energy discs like Krillin, and release his ki from every point on his body in omni-directional explosions etc. Compared to Superman's abilities, he primarily relies on his punches and heat vision in combat. He also has the Super Breath (likely not going to be a factor in this fight given Goku's resilience and adaptivity/speed etc) X-Ray vision, super senses, the infinite mass punch and the Super Flare. The X-ray vision is unlikely to come into play due to Goku having note showed any pressure point weaknesses in the past (the only one was tail, which he overcame). In his fight against Tien for instance he tanked multiple blows that should have been pressure points

http://mangayou.com/*********/dragon-ball-1/reader?page=135

However, there are multiple times when Pressure point attacks have worked, like when Vegeta knocked out Goku, Goten and Trunks in the Buu saga, also Beerus knocked out SS3 Goku with a simple chop to the back of the neck. PIS maybe? There is a more feasible explanation, which is based on how ki works. By focusing their ki the Dragon Ball characters can increase their durability (same principle applies to strength and speed as well), in a manner similar to Superman's bio-matrix, if the characters of Dragon Ball drop their guard by lowering their ki, then they are vulnerable (like what happened with Goku), or if the opposing character is stronger than the defender, they can supply a force that can overwhelm the defender's ki. In the case of Superman his punches are on average large planet level, which Goku should be durable enough to endure, if Goku were to drop his guard then they would work, but it a one-on-one confrontation that's not likely to be an issue. The infinite mass punch is infeasible due to three reasons

1 - He wouldn't use it close to Earth since it would destroy the Earth, he'd first have to take Goku out of the solar system (which he wouldn't be able to do thanks to the instant transmission). Even assuming he managed that it still wouldn't work due to 2 and 3

2 - He needs to travel constantly under the speed of light for it to work. Goku always comes out FTL and could therefore easily dodge it

3 - The punch has been shown to knock Superman out before, meaning if he used it and missed or it didn't kill Goku, he'd be finished

Overall Goku has the superior combat skills, is more adaptable in battle, has higher AP and durability, has the reaction time to deal with any raw speed advantage that Superman has and has a counter for everything that Superman can do

 

[FanofRPGs]

woah that is a mouthfull

I read it, and I agree

In my eyes, the only problem Superman will give Goku is his speed and his phasing

But here is a thing, Superman is faster than Goku. That is a fact, but he cannot maintain his combat speed as well as Goku can. Goku can on the fly dodge Death Beams, Superman usually in fights does not go to hundreds of times c in combat speed and flubs up

But for phasing, IDK what can stop that

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

keep in mind tho that the speed diff is not likely that big

and the power gap is huge

goku can blindly fire punches and ki blasts around him when superman approaches

 

[AnimeFanboy2916]

It'lol be a close fight with Supes speed, but ultimately, Goku is superior in everyway.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

keep in mind tho that the speed diff is not likely that big
and the power gap is huge

goku can blindly fire punches and ki blasts around him when superman approaches

That too, but like I said he could flee to the Sun and get a power up, but Goku can still counter that

 

[Yojimbo1989]

woah that is a mouthfull
I read it, and I agree

In my eyes, the only problem Superman will give Goku is his speed and his phasing

But here is a thing, Superman is faster than Goku. That is a fact, but he cannot maintain his combat speed as well as Goku can. Goku can on the fly dodge Death Beams, Superman usually in fights does not go to hundreds of times c in combat speed and flubs up

But for phasing, IDK what can stop that

Well for phasing, I can see two ways around that. Firstly Goku has fought with severe wounds of a similar form before when he fought against Piccolo Jr in the finals of the World Marital Arts Tournament

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v16/c191/14.html

however Goku still managed to win because Piccolo didn't hit any vital organs

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v16/c192/6.html

so then unless Superman managed to score a good clean hit on Goku (which would be difficult in a fight) it wouldn't affect the outcome of the fight. If he did then it would be a potential instant win move.... if not for a few vital factors.

One, Superman has only used this move once against Cyborg Superman, which would mean he's inexperienced using it. Even if he weren't, he used all his best moves against an Imperiex Probe and Impereix Prime himself, except the phase punch. This could potentially mean that Superman doesn't like using it, which leads into point number two. He likely wouldn't use it against Goku, due to his morals. Even if we assume both were bloodlusted, then Goku would win due to Superman having to get in close to Goku to use it. where Goku's AP would win out

 

[ShutUp123]

Goku- 8 votes

Superman- 0 votes

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

This is why DBZ doesn't get taken seriously anymore. Why must you people ruin my childhood?

Either way, Supes wins both rounds.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Playing devil's advocate, how does Goku effectively counter phasing in round 2?

 

[ShutUp123]

woah that is a mouthfull
I read it, and I agree

In my eyes, the only problem Superman will give Goku is his speed and his phasing

But here is a thing, Superman is faster than Goku. That is a fact, but he cannot maintain his combat speed as well as Goku can. Goku can on the fly dodge Death Beams, Superman usually in fights does not go to hundreds of times c in combat speed and flubs up

But for phasing, IDK what can stop that

Well for phasing, I can see two ways around that. Firstly Goku has fought with severe wounds of a similar form before when he fought against Piccolo Jr in the finals of the World Marital Arts Tournament
http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v16/c191/14.html

however Goku still managed to win because Piccolo didn't hit any vital organs

http://********.me/manga/dragon_ball/v16/c192/6.html

so then unless Superman managed to score a good clean hit on Goku (which would be difficult in a fight) it wouldn't affect the outcome of the fight. If he did then it would be a potential instant win move.... if not for a few vital factors.

One, Superman has only used this move once against Cyborg Superman, which would mean he's inexperienced using it. Even if he weren't, he used all his best moves against an Imperiex Probe and Impereix Prime himself, except the phase punch. This could potentially mean that Superman doesn't like using it, which leads into point number two. He likely wouldn't use it against Goku, due to his morals. Even if we assume both were bloodlusted, then Goku would win due to Superman having to get in close to Goku to use it. where Goku's AP would win out

That dude explains it

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That dude explains it

Since standard battle assumptions mean they should both be bloodlusted, I don't see why he wouldn't use the technique against a foe he otherwise couldn't hurt. I also don't really see where the comment brought up a counter point to said phasing. Superman's not suicidal, so I think he'd rather use the move than face certain death.

 

[ShutUp123]

That dude explains it

Since standard battle assumptions mean they should both be bloodlusted, I don't see why he wouldn't use the technique against a foe he otherwise couldn't hurt. I also don't really see where the comment brought up a counter point to said phasing. Superman's not suicidal, so I think he'd rather use the move than face certain death.

The answer to your question is there if you read carefully and i quote.

"Even if we assume both were bloodlusted, then Goku would win due to Superman having to get in close to Goku to use it. where Goku's AP would win out"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The answer to your question is there if you read carefully and i quote.

"Even if we assume both were bloodlusted, then Goku would win due to Superman having to get in close to Goku to use it. where Goku's AP would win out"

That doesn't answer the question, at all. If Superman makes himself intangible, Goku firing basic ki blasts or punching wouldn't work.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I completely forgot about intangibility. Originally, I was going to say Goku due to speed close enough to land a lucky hit, but...that really changes things.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Well Round 1 goes to Goku due to various martial skills, techniques, Ap and durability.

Round 2 its abit difficult as Superman has a MFTL combat speed Feat while Goku doesn't, Superman has ability that can ignore Goku durability as well so its a blitz and kill imo even if Goku has the AP advantage.

 

[ShutUp123]

The answer to your question is there if you read carefully and i quote.

"Even if we assume both were bloodlusted, then Goku would win due to Superman having to get in close to Goku to use it. where Goku's AP would win out"

That doesn't answer the question, at all. If Superman makes himself intangible, Goku firing basic ki blasts or punching wouldn't work.

So at the end superman had to rely on hax which he only used once and he never used that again despite getting beaten by other superior characters so now just because he can't get a win against Goku that hax somehow suddenly returns and that was the point of his whole argument that superman don't rely on his technique even in his fight against impreix probe and impreix where superman gave his all and in probablistic terms the chance of superman using that technique would be less than 1% and it can be proven mathematically if someone can count his number of fights.

 

[Promestein]

"never used that again" Inconsistency. Not a logical or usable argument.

A bloodlusted character within a vs thread uses every technique they have at their disposal.

 

[ShutUp123]

"never used that again" Inconsistency. Not a logical or usable argument.
A bloodlusted character within a vs thread uses every technique they have at their disposal.

That doesn't even make any sense as each characters behaves differently even when they are bloodlusted.If you change characters nature then you are not using a canon character

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

Person 1: A character can use the moves that they have shown the ability to use.

Person 2: How? Quit lying! That's NOT CANON!

Do you see the problem here?

 

[AllanSaiyan]

"never used that again" Inconsistency. Not a logical or usable argument.
A bloodlusted character within a vs thread uses every technique they have at their disposal.

Yep that like saying Goku can't mind read because he only did it once.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just going to point out that vibrating his molecules to become intangible isn't something Superman did only once. He did it against Doomsday, he used it to also become invisible one time, he used it to match the exact vibrations of a planet from another reality, and other kryptonians, such as Supergirl, have also shown to possess the ability.

 

[ShutUp123]

No one is denying that Superman cannot use his move.The only problem here is that it is not his character to rely on that move.It is not in superman's fighting style can't you see my point?

 

[Antoniofer]

ˆIsn't like he wanted to use that in battle or at least is very useful... isn't his best technic and may take some time

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No one is denying that Superman cannot use his move.The only problem here is that it is not his character to rely on that move.It is not in superman's fighting style can't you see my point?

And it's not Goku's style to blindly fire away at a fast moving target. He's not Vegeta.

That said, Superman used said technique in battle before, so it's not really out of character.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

No one is denying that Superman cannot use his move.The only problem here is that it is not his character to rely on that move.It is not in superman's fighting style can't you see my point?

It is a part of his fighting style. The fact he has used it so many times shows that. Also, unless you believe Goku can one-shot, Supes only needs to take 1 hit before just deciding to phase through the rest. Remember, Supes is a super-genius. Even though that part of him gets forgotten, he is extremely intellegent.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

at this point, goku shud be well over 100 x the power of superman


possibly hundreds of times stronger


also, whats the phasing asrguement, wont supes need to pull out his organs, but goku's organs have survived shock and damage of mahnitudes which are well over 100 x what superman dishes out

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, Goku would one-shot given the chance. However, he might not get it. I'm going to read the rest of the comments to make a decision.

 

[Antoniofer]

ˆdo you mean in Buu saga or in DBS?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

also, whats the phasing asrguement, wont supes need to pull out his organs, but goku's organs have survived shock and damage of mahnitudes which are well over 100 x what superman dishes out

That doesn't really matter if they're outside of him, though.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ˆdo you mean in Buu saga or in DBS?

buu saga


using the superman calc, we can determine that spc was at minimum ~75 x post crisis superman level

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

also, whats the phasing asrguement, wont supes need to pull out his organs, but goku's organs have survived shock and damage of mahnitudes which are well over 100 x what superman dishes out

That doesn't really matter if they're outside of him, though.

but they need to be pulled out dont they?