Possibly Azrael Upgrade (Low 1-A to solid 1-A)

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay, so it's established the Discworld multiverse is Low 1-A in size right?

Because after someone became the "new time"

"It's just the sugar," she said. "That's all. It's fuel. And do stop going on about it! Look, we can't just let you die to get—" Yes, we can, said Lobsang. "Why?" said Susan, shocked. Because I have seen everything. "Would you like to tell everyone?" said Susan, reverting to Classroom Sarcasm. "We'd all like to know how this ends!" You misunderstand the meaning of "everything."

"Think like this," he said at last. "Think of everything. It's an everyday word. But 'everything' means…everything. It's a much bigger word than 'universe.' And everything contains all possible things that can happen at all possible times in all possible worlds. Don't look for complete solutions in any one of them. Sooner or later, everything causes everything else."

-Thief of time

All other clocks, even the handless clock of Death, were reflections of the Clock. Exactly reflections of the Clock; they told the universe what the time was, but the Clock told Time what time is. It was the mainspring from which all time poured

- Reaper Man

So Azrael fully transcends time, who would be Low 1-A, and as such would be 1-A himself

Azrael should also have void manipulation because of The Auditors of Reality

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Ultima Reality and Sera EX to comment here if you wish.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Lobsang/Time was stated to be 16D in the story irrc, so I'm not sure if his statement helps.

However I agree for The Clock.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Actually time being 16-D would be a disadvantage since that would be explicitly only 1-B. But Discworld doesent use dimensional tiering.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If I remember it was implied that Lubsang wasn't on the same scale as his "mom"; but yeah I don't remember Discworld using DT so I still agree I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the active members listed in the Discworld verse page to comment here as well.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Aaaaaaactually...

Doesent this blatantly say there's stuff beyond a type 4 multiverse?

 

[Threemagi]

Aaaaaaactually...

Doesent this blatantly say there's stuff beyond a type 4 multiverse?

That Level N Multiverse? Possibly

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That's what I meant

 

[Threemagi]

That's what I meant

The description just looks to be plain Level IV Multiverse to me. But its probably beyond Level IV too, yes.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Yeah, so should it be 1-A?

 

[Threemagi]

Ask Ultima lol . I'm not sure anymore if having Level IV multiverse qualifies for Solid 1-A or not.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

A type 4 multiverse is, on its own, Low 1-A.

 

[Threemagi]

A type 4 multiverse is, on its own, Low 1-A.

Okay, which nwans Level N Multiverse = 1-A, and transcending Level N Multiverse is = futher into 1-A.

Sure, if you put it like that.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Okay, sure

 

[Antvasima]

Have you asked Ultima Reality to comment here?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Don't we consider the Discworld Multiverse to actually be High 1-B in size? Last I've heard, Azrael and the Old High Ones transcending it with vague context is pretty much the basis for them being Low 1-A in the first place. Although, if he fully transcends spacetime in relation to a High 1-B Multiverse, then he'd be 1-A anyways, I suppose.

Regarding the Type IV Multiverse stuff: I am fairly sure the "Level N Multiverse" described there is literally just referring to the Type IV Multiverse itself, considering the paragraph that refers to it is basically quoting an article that Tegmark did about his Multiverse Types. So, yeah, it's clearly talking about the same thing.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait, so are type 4 multiverses Low 1-A or High 1-B?

And for what it's worth regarding transcending space-time, the concept of time on all levels of existence was created and is sustained through Azrael's beliefs. Not sure about space tho.

Tho, Azrael might only be baseline 1-A if level j just means thpe 4.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It depends on how you interpret them, I suppose, and how willing you are to take a description of one at face value when it comes to individual verses. Lowballing them to the max, they would be pretty solidly 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Well, it DOES describe them in verse as they actually are

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here?

@Ultima

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Well, frankly, I am starting to think these proposals are pretty contradictory after piecing some of that stuff together: The Discworld Multiverse being Low 1-A in the first place apparently comes from the fact a Type IV Multiverse is mentioned in The Science of Discworld, and Time would apparently be Low 1-A as well due to encompassing this whole structure, according to Zach's claims.

The issue with this is that the Discworld Multiverse being governed by the concept of time in the first place already contradicts the notion that it is an Ultimate Ensemble in any way, shape or form, considering that the whole proposal of the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis is that all logically-possible mathematical structures are instantiated in the form of a universe somewhere in the multiverse; said structures being themselves aspatial and atemporal in nature. It's a platonic multiverse, if you will, and Time having any domain over its structure goes against that.

Time being 1618-dimensional in nature would then just add salt to the injury, considering that Type IV Multiverses obviously encompass far more than such a limited number of dimensions, and that's basically why they are placed so high in the Tiering System (At least in their "unbounded" version, that is.)

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

To be fair, "time" as a concept can be the type 1 concept of time, rather than physical time. Aka and Father Time (Vertigo) are 1-A.

As for time being explicitly 16-D, I couldn't find a quote on this, all I could find was

"He broke history and repaired it," said Susan. "Cause and cure. That makes no sense!" "Not in four dimensions," said Unity. "In eighteen, it's all perfectly clear."

Which doesent really imply time is "only" 18-D. It just means he could do an 18-D thing. Unless I missed a statement.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What suggests this? Especially considering that it seems to be contradicted by how Time here appears to be referring to a physical constant that functions across the Multiverse. The Platonic Form of Time would be more akin to a singular, static object that provides the basis for physical time to exist in the first place, while not necessarily partaking in it. Father Time and Aka are more akin to this than the Discworld character, from what I see.

Embodiments of Time can be also 1-A if they show feats of significantly affecting phenomena on this scale, regardless of what their namesake or existential scale actually encompasses. Time in Discworld seems to have its AP scaled in terms of the latter only, so that point is sort of moot anyways.

That quote does imply that history is 18-dimensional, or at least that it can be perfectly comprehended from this perspective. It contradicts Time encompassing an 1-A Multiverse, either way.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Wouldn't The Clock being something akin to the Platonic Form of Time now that I think of it?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

"What suggests this? Especially considering that it seems to be contradicted by how Time here appears to be referring to a physical constant that functions across the Multiverse. The Platonic Form of Time would be more akin to a singular, static object that provides the basis for physical time to exist in the first place, while not necessarily partaking in it. Father Time and Aka are more akin to this than the Discworld character, from what I see"

Time says "Yes…even trying to think in a mere four dimensions is a terrible effort. I'm sorry. Even to hold in my mind the concept of something called 'now' is hard. You thought I was mostly human. I'm mostly not." He sighed. "If only I could tell you what everything looks like to me…it's so beautiful."

"That quotes does imply that history is 18-dimensional, or at least that it can be perfectly comprehended from this perspective."

Not necessarily? It means history includes 18-D stuff, not that it's limited to it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wouldn't The Clock being something akin to the Platonic Form of Time now that I think of it?

I guess you could associate Azrael's Clock with this based on its description, yeah, but definitely not the physical Time which springs from it.

Time says "Yes…even trying to think in a mere four dimensions is a terrible effort. I'm sorry. Even to hold in my mind the concept of something called 'now' is hard. You thought I was mostly human. I'm mostly not." He sighed. "If only I could tell you what everything looks like to me…it's so beautiful."

That just implies that Time exists in, and perceives reality in more than four dimensions, which does not at all imply that it is a Type 1 Concept or whatever, nor does it preclude it from being an 18-dimensional entity.

Not necessarily? It means history includes 18-D stuff, not that it's limited to it.

"He broke history and repaired it," said Susan. "Cause and cure. That makes no sense!" "Not in four dimensions," said Unity. "In eighteen, it's all perfectly clear."

It is very clearly stating that the process of breaking and repairing history is something that makes no sense from a 4-dimensional perspective, but that can be fully comprehended in terms of 18-dimensional thought, something which obviously doesn't work if Time is 1-A, as you seem to propose.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hmmm

I mean even if time can't be 1-A, could "time" as a character be weaker than the full extent of the multiverse, but Azrael scale to it?

I mean there's like a billion "Death's" all of whom are weaker than Azrael who is actually death

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait, hold on, I noticed something about Azrael's realm

"And then, below, a plain. Distance was as meaningless here as time. but there was a sense of hugeness. The plain could have been a mile away, or a million miles; it was marked by long valleys or rills which flowed away to either side as he got closer. And landed. He dismounted, and stood in the silence. Then he went down on one knee.

Change the perspective. The furrowed landscape falls away into immense distances, curves at the edges, becomes a fingertip. Azrael raised his finger to a face that filled the sky, lit by the faint glow of dying galaxies. There are a billion Deaths, but they are all aspects of the one Death: Azrael, the Great Attractor, the Death of Universes, the beginning and end of time."

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

1-A Azrael is stillpossible, but I'll admit time can't be 1-A

Although, since the auditors of reality think in 18-Dimensions and stuff, the mid tiers, including Death (Discworld) would logically be 1-B

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised conclusions regarding how we should tier these characters?

 

[QuasiYuri]

1-A Azrael seems possible since The Clock would be the "higher" form of time, but it's unlikely with what we have.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We need to reach some form of decision though.