Possible revisions to Lloyd Irving?

[Marcman2020]

Lloyd Irving and friends were able to fight Gnome; a creature who supplies/is the source of gravity for both worlds.

http://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Gnome#Tales_of_Symphonia

"Appearing in the Temple of Earth, he is the Summon Spirit of Earth and responsible of generate gravity on both Sylvarant and Tethe'alla."

A creature/entity that can supply gravity to two worlds; I've heard people say such power would make him star level in the very least. Since Lloyd and co were able to defeat him and similar entities, wouldn't they all scale to Gnome by default?

If not, how does one debunk this with out resorting to PIS?

 

[Theglassman12]

Where did you hear that manipulating gravity on two worlds make the user star level. imo, that would just give the user multi planetary range instead of a huge AP upgrade.

 

[Marcman2020]

Where did you hear that manipulating gravity on two worlds make the user star level. imo, that would just give the user multi planetary range instead of a huge AP upgrade.

It's less about manipulating Gravity and more about being the SOURCE of Gravity for two planets and is needed to create balance between the two worlds. He is necessary since his power/presence allows there to be Gravity between the two paralell worlds period.

It could possibly extend to the rest of the solar system as well since that would imply that with out him, there is no gravity period.

"The Sun exerts gravity on all the planets, keeping them in their orbits, but each planet exerts a force of gravity on the Sun, as well as all the other planets, too, all to varying degrees based on the mass and distance between the bodies."

 

[Theglassman12]

The whole solar system thing is really stretching it, especially since there's never a point where the group goes to another planet in their solar system. Also just the fact that a summon spirit is required for gravity to function shows that their world functions differently than our. Even one of the characters say that mana is more important to life than water.

 

[Marcman2020]

The whole solar system thing is really stretching it, especially since there's never a point where the group goes to another planet in their solar system. Also just the fact that a summon spirit is required for gravity to function shows that their world functions differently than our. Even one of the characters say that mana is more important to life than water.

So if such a creature like gnome isn't star level, what would one place it at? Planet level? Planet+ Level? What? Because such a thing HAS to make Lloyd and everyone else Lloyd and the rest of his compansions more than just Town level.

 

[Theglassman12]

I don't know.

 

[Marcman2020]

Well if ANYONE can figure out/calc how powerful a being who gives off gravity to two world is, please let me know.

Other people are saying that Gnome is a star level summon/boss (This came up often when debating Sanji vs Regal) and that literally all the main and more important characters can be scaled to this.

This has to at least be a planet level character/feat in the very least (Especially since it's two entire worlds/planets that are being supplied gravity too)

And if this isn't a valid feat, anyone know how to debunk it? Because I sure can't.

 

[Theglassman12]

All it is is just spreading your influence across two worlds AKA range. I don't see how this counts as AP.

 

[Marcman2020]

All it is is just spreading your influence across two worlds AKA range. I don't see how this counts as AP.

But if one is powerful enough to spread their influence across two entire worlds and provide enough gravity to said worlds to keep them stable. Surely one would need to be strong enough to damage/defeat such a being who has that kind of power/range.

Lloyd and the others were able to damage Gnome despite the fact that he was this powerful. That has to count for something above town level.

He could in the very least be planet level or planet+ level.

 

[Theglassman12]

And that's all that is, spreading your influence. How does spreading your influence automatically makes you stronger?

 

[Marcman2020]

And that's all that is, spreading your influence. How does spreading your influence automatically makes you stronger?

I have a feeling that this is just going to go in a loop at this point...

I ask "But don't you need to be powerful in order to be powerful enough to sustain two worlds with your mere presence?" and then I just get "That's just spreading influence" but it doesn't even answer my question.

I'd like to know just how powerful one must be in order to spread their influence across two completely paralell planets across dimensions; especially a force like Gravity that is responsible for the stability of two worlds that exist in two different dimensions.

That HAS to be more powerful than town level. It's not just "influence", it's being a literal source of gravity.

On that note; what about Lloyd Irving combining his Meterial blades into the Eternal Sword?

http://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Material_Blade

http://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Eternal_Sword

At the end of the game, Lloyd Irving is able to combine his swords aterial Swords into the "Eternal Sword" (A sword that controls time and space) and was able to merge two entire worlds into one.

Again, these two worlds exist in two different dimensions, and Lloyd was able to merge these two worlds into one.

Is this just another instance of "That's just influence" or wouldn't that require actual power to accomplish? Isn't merging two entire planets into one a feat that's above town level?

 

[Theglassman12]

The merging two worlds is more like a feat than the gravity on both worlds imo.

 

[Marcman2020]

The merging two worlds is more like a feat than the gravity on both worlds imo.

Then wouldn't that make Lloyd above town level in the very least? If you're not willing to believe the defeat of Gnome makes Lloyd above town level, then surely him having a pair of swords that combine into a sword that is powerful enough to merge two entire planets that exist in different dimensions would make him above that.

Towards the end of the game those become his primary weapons and they're a huge plot point as well since they are ultimately what is used to defeat the final boss of the game (Yggdrasill) and resolve the conflict at hand.

 

[Theglassman12]

Well it's not necessarily the eternal sword that defeated mithos, just his father's swords. The eternal sword appeared after the fight to grant Lloyd's wish.

 

[Marcman2020]

Well it's not necessarily the eternal sword that defeated mithos, just his father's swords. The eternal sword appeared after the fight to grant Lloyd's wish.

But he was still able to use the swords that can be used to create it, can't he? If the Material Swords can be turned into that kind of sword with that kind of power, then surely Lloyd having them in his posession already makes him at least planet level considering what he can do with them when they're combined.

 

[Theglassman12]

I guess. You should ask the other staff members since I'm not enough to allow this change.

 

[Marcman2020]

I guess. You should ask the other staff members since I'm not enough to allow this change.

Wouldn't know who to ask (I'm new here)

 

[Theglassman12]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/VS_Battles_Staff

Here's a list of the staff members here.

 

[Marcman2020]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/VS_Battles_Staff
Here's a list of the staff members here.

So do I just drop one of them a line or what? How does this work?

 

[Theglassman12]

Go to their message wall, ask them for their input on this thread, and leave them a link to this thread.

 

[Marcman2020]

Sorry to ressurect a Dead Thread, but there are still claims about Lloyd (and by extent the rest of the tails cast) being Star Level due to a user known as "Tsubori" bringing this up:

"Gnome's power provides the gravity for Tethe'alla and Sylvarant. Gnome is also mid tier at best as one of the summons, with Origin, Maxwell, Shadow, Aska/Luna, etc being stronger."

"The entire party is capable of surviving fight against Gnome, higher tier summons, and Kratos, who's strong enough to seal Origin."

So since Lloyd is stong as some one he's helped beat, and someone who's beaten that character as well that he's beaten.

Thus it seems likely he can be scaled to Origin: http://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Origi

What do you guys think?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

We can't use Wikis as sources, so you'll have to find it where it actually says it provides the Gravity for planets in-game.

That said, in this case we'll just use the GBE of the worlds. Standard is 53.7 Zettatons, so baseline Planet level. Doubled since theirs two.

 

[Marcman2020]

We can't use Wikis as sources, so you'll have to find it where it actually says it provides the Gravity for planets in-game.
That said, in this case we'll just use the GBE of the worlds. Standard is 53.7 Zettatons, so baseline Planet level. Doubled since theirs two.

https://youtu.be/jEZjWUjRIW4?t=2m28s

Sorry about the commentary, but it was the best vid I could find on short notice.

But note the dialouge:

Lloyd: Whoa, I'm floating!

Raine: ... So this is weightlessness

LLoyd: What's that?

Genis: Well, on the ground, the mana from Gnome, the summon spirit of earth, gives rise to the effect known as gravity

Raine: The reason we fall to the ground from high places is because Gnome's power pulls at us. But this place is so far away from the ground that Gnome's power doesn't reach.

While this part of the game doesn't say that Gnome gives power to both worlds, it is still something other sources say and it is acknowledged in the story due to the nature of the need to balance both worlds.

Keep in mind that Lloyd and his team were also able to defeat Gnome to get his power for summoning later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGOxwH3yRAw&t=355s (Gnome acknowledges that Lloyd and his team defeated him at 4:42)

 

[Marcman2020]

Bump

 

[Marcman2020]

Bump

 

[GenesisHero12]

I think Lloyd should be at least planet level, possibly even Star level at the highest because there are many reasons for him to be. One reason he should be stronger than he was from the beginning when he was town level in the anime but, in-game he fought Forcystus later. Two, he used the eternal sword to unit the two worlds. Three, Gnome's earth powers of gravity on both Slyvarant and Tethe'alla and Lloyd and team beating Gnome. Four, Yggdrasil is Superior to Gnome and he split the world in two

If we when with in-game Lloyd, he would be Small Town to possibly Town Level do to fight Marble who transform and they struggled by she blew herself up and damage Forcystus but, planet to star level by the end of the game. The anime he would town level at the beginning but, possibly planet to star level due to using the eternal sword for only a wish if I remember. Since we don't have a calc for the feat I would say possibly Planet level for now.

 

[Yakushimi]

In my opinion, Lloyd should be updated to include this in his Key:

With the Eternal Sword

And his Stats with the Eternal Sword should be comparable to Mithos, such as the Planet Level Attack Potency, Striking Strength, Durability, etc.

And he should also have a separate part for his Stats that include:

All previous abilities, plus Reality Warping (The Eternal Sword grants the user any wish.), Space-Time Manipulation (The Eternal Sword warped space and time to separate Aselia and merge Sylvarant and Tethealla.)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Yakushimi I'm currently trying to make a complete Respect blog making a list of abilities for each of the characters in the game, including the villains.

 

[Yakushimi]

@Yakushimi I'm currently trying to make a complete Respect blog making a list of abilities for each of the characters in the game, including the villains.

Speaking of this, how is the Respect Blog going?

 

[Friendlysociopath]

The Summons never fight the party at full power since it's basically a test-combat. Gnome right after you fight him is just as chipper as ever- he even snarks about you guys dog-piling him instead of 1v1ing like Mithos did. Also given that gravity didn't suddenly stop existing for the entire world(s) while you fought him- he clearly was still doing his regular job in addition to fighting you. So you most definitely didn't get his full power and certainly don't deserve to scale off of that. Not to mention he just never does anything related to gravity against you either.


The Eternal Sword is its own monster. Nobody who uses it ever exhibits uber firepower feats- the thing is special for creating/splitting dimensions and messing with time- not making you an undefeateable god. Even people with no reason to hold back and want to destroy things in Tales never show such firepower when they have it.

 

[Marcman2020]

The Summons never fight the party at full power since it's basically a test-combat. Gnome right after you fight him is just as chipper as ever- he even snarks about you guys dog-piling him instead of 1v1ing like Mithos did.
Also given that gravity didn't suddenly stop existing for the entire world(s) while you fought him- he clearly was still doing his regular job in addition to fighting you. So you most definitely didn't get his full power and certainly don't deserve to scale off of that. Not to mention he just never does anything related to gravity against you either.


The Eternal Sword is its own monster. Nobody who uses it ever exhibits uber firepower feats- the thing is special for creating/splitting dimensions and messing with time- not making you an undefeateable god. Even people with no reason to hold back and want to destroy things in Tales never show such firepower when they have it.

This makes the most sense of any arguement I've seen so far... kudos!

 

[GenesisHero12]

@Friendlysociopath I get what your say and I agree that Lloyd won't be planet level with the eternal sword and that the summons were test them so they weren't going all out on that notion but he should be stronger than town level since he fought Yggdrasil/Methos.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

@Friendlysociopath I get what your say and I agree that Lloyd won't be planet level with the eternal sword and that the summons were test them so they weren't going all out on that notion but he should be stronger than town level since he fought Yggdrasil/Methos.

Why would he be town? The wiki says it's based on fighting the blue-hair guy with one arm and... that's just silly. He didn't even properly destroy the town in the first place- everything is still there: buildings, people, trees, etc. He attacked Iselia, he didn't destroy it, and he did it with an army to boot- not only his own power.

 

[GenesisHero12]

@Friendlysociopath I think they scale it to the anime feats than in-game feats. I agree with that since Lloyd and Genis didn't fought Forcystus until near the end of the game. I don't know any feats to scale for him beside the summons and the boss they fought in the game. If we can figure out how powerful they are when Lloyd and group fought them to test them then we could use that to scale him.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

The anime doesn't involve him blasting the town to oblivion either AFAIK. There is simply no reason to scale Lloyd to most of the feat-carrying cast and very few feats to give him his own power. Tales games have never been particularly good at making feats- the cutscenes and showing them in battle outside of gameplay is a relatively recent thing. He stands in a thriving company of fellow Tales protagonists.

 

[GenesisHero12]

@Friendlysociopath The close feats we can use is him tanking magic attack like thunder which is the same as real lightning used for his reaction feat which carries 5 gigajoules Building level.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

@Friendlysociopath The close feats we can use is him tanking magic attack like thunder which is the same as real lightning used for his reaction feat which carries 5 gigajoules Building level.

Er, at no point in the game can Lloyd dodge lightning, natural or otherwise- (magic lightning is not natural) you can go to the lightning temple all you please to test that one out in any case. He does get a few select supersonic attacks as he outright calls them out and they look like they produce a mach cone but it's not everything he does and he certainly can't react to lightning.

He's probably building-level just from the creatures he fights so that's no real stretch. The 4-armed horn-skeleton in the opening cinematic is like 30 feet tall by the looks of it and if Lloyd can be remotely similar in strength he'd probably approach that tier. I don't know of any instance of him "tanking" lightning outside of gameplay mind you but it wouldn't be all that weird.