Possible Masadaverse/Shinza Bansho Revisions...Keyword

[CrossverseCrisis]

Note: I am honestly not sure how in the hell am i gonna be feeling once i'm done with this but...let's...get...me....WREKT...with a K and T in there.

Note 2: If you read my note above, that shows you may have an idea of what i'm talking about...if only about 1% of what the hell i'm talking about.

Note 3: Please don't ignore it as you read this thread here...i would appreciate if you understand the first note.

Weirdness aside, here goes this thread.

So i recall a feat of power that two of our main Masadaverse VN readers for the longest time, Trex and EMC, mentioned to me and a couple others...i think, where characters of one of the VN's of this verse such as this one are capable of not only busting whole mountain ranges, but also vaporize small countries. As the setting of KKK (short for Kajiri Kamui Kagura) more than very likely took place in Japan, as Dies Irae was also of that setting place for it's storyline, i requested a calc to be done based on a statement of the vaporizing part on Japan and i got something like this here. From what was resulted, we have a low end and high end that go from Large Country+ to Continent level respectively.

Now for this here, i've been told by another reader of the VN's, ALRF, that our main cast of KKK have indeed fought the Tenma's like Morei and such in their first encounter. Of course to put this to note, this is prior to them utilizing Taikyoku. Without it, the Tenmas are capable of performing both Tier 7 and 6 levels of destruction with their attacks. And our main cast, like Soujirou here, actually took them fine AFAIK of ALRF's words.

To wrap this up simply, the main cast of our heroes like Soujirou to Habaki and Keishirou (aka KajiriKamui!Wilhelm) can get the scaling given that most of them are of comparable power. With the only ones that won't be getting this, if what ALRF said is true, is Sakuya and possibly Rindou. At least, that's about who will get up to this rating.

So that's one part of what i made this thread for...everyone.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Another part for this thread here.

Now this one...is a VERY questionable one. And also something i doubt will actually past if this upgrade is acceptable to others here in the community. But here goes again.

There's actually been some talks i had with a couple of staff in private on whether or not Dies Irae scales to this. Now to those who actually bother with this kind of thing, you might ask "Cross, doesn't DI mostly possess City to Mountain level feats/statements?".

Well to be honest, that's actually pretty true. The thing about it is that most of their cast outside of Reinhard and Sensory Mercury (Mercurius but aite) possess feats and statements that range mainly from City level to all the way to Mountain. Another thing that supports them in that range is that there's an explicit statement of Keishirou Kyougetsu being far weaker than his past incarnation as Wilhelm Ehrenburg. While i cannot find the quote for it anywhere sadly, i've often been told of this a couple or so times in the past by Trex and EMC. And they pretty much mean it quite a lot. Which is something to say considering Keishi's best feat, from what i can gather, is able to pierce through whole mountain ranges on top of some other Tier 7 stuff. And Wilhelm is, again, supposed to be stated as far stronger than his KKK incarnation.

Only problem i have with this kind of scaling is that it works fine for DI in terms of their Tier 7 feats. But i have no idea of how to scale it along with everyone if every single person in DI...or the ones that truly relevant, suddenly get boosted to Tier 6 via just this one statement. So the only options that i was talked about with is if we ignore the statement and just have Wilhelm and Keishi be of their own feats, or have Wilhelm scale which in turn would scale everyone comparable to or stronger than him to Tier 6.

Speaking of that, there is yet another issue i have with DI's Three Commanders: Eleonore, Machina, and Wolfgang. Apparently, we scaled them based on one lone statement describing them as being a million times stronger than the normal LDO member like Kei or even Wilhelm again. I didn't think about this at first but after a long while time did i realize how inconsistent this kind of scaling is. Not only was it mentioned once, but the three commanders are only ever said to possess Tier 7 feats just like the rest of their members. Just of a higher degree. Like Machina OHKO'ing Tubal Cai while not anywhere near his fullpower or with the use of his Briah. Wolfgang being a stronger Wilhelm and one who has a casual city level feat for nuking Berlin back in DI's proluge during the final hours of WW2. And Eleonore has i guess another city level feat of her own while only being a third of her fullpower or something going by some scans that a user provided in one of the Masadaverse discussion threads on our site here.

Given this, and if DI (most likely to happen TBH) don't get that Tier 6 scaling, i propose having the Three Commanders get scaled down to Tier 7 as there's literally scenes of them being combatted by some people that they normally would have beaten just by sheer power alone if they were truly a million times stronger (i.e Eleonore being combatted by Beatrice, Wilhelm taking on and even managing to harm(???) Wolfgang, and Re evenly trading blows with Machina despite the latters superior physical prowess).

And that is the second and possibly last part of the purpose of this thread here. There is likely to be more that could be proposed (by that i mean those whose into the series and has either done things like read it or otherwise), but these are the main ones that i wanted to address here finally.

 

[ALRF]

So as i've said before,Eastern Expedition will obviously scale to the calc (if it gets accepted that is) and honestly anything that i could have said , Cross already beat me to it, so i agree with his first post(again if the calc GETS accepted).

Now for the second post...i can't do nothing but agree with Cross too,sadly there isn't much evidence for a Tier 6 Commanders, i could have made the argument that Beatrice was only fighting a 90% non serious Eleonore, but the other two fight scenes completely contradicts that,seeing as Wilhelm was fighting Wolfgang evenly (despite him being pressured at first) and Ren going toe to toe with Machina, who too hasn't really any feat apart from stomping Tubal Cain.

So yeah Commanders gets downgraded to Tier 7 is something completely understandable, remember though this downgrade only happens if the calc doesn't get accepted if it does on the other hand, then i guess our commanders would still be Tier 6

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@ALRF: Lina accepted it so that kind of has something towards it at least (apparently, our standards of accepting calcs via our calc group is pretty...loose, i think...idek). Thing is, i probably would like more input on the validly of that calc above.

As for the second part, yeah i HAD to point that out. I literally have pics of it on my profile (aside from...you know, among other things) that showcase it.

I do, however, have a document on Google Drive that i made to use for the new changes to their stats once this is done. Though i just realized that we may have to downgrade Ren's Eine Finale stats too since he's scaled to them in that form so...

 

[ALRF]

Well more input is always nice and yeah i was kinda bothered by the ratings of the commanders, but i guess i never tried to look too deep into it.

Forgot Ren AKA guy who i really never saw that much in VS Threads lol, but yeah sadly he gets his Eine Faust Finale down too.

 

[VenomElite]

Stuff looks fine to me.

 

[ZERO7772]

Look fine to me and i agree on downgrading the Commanders to tier 7 because they were fought by other normal LDO members such as beatrice\kei\bey and Ren

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah just to note: I'm pretty sure the main support i'm getting on this is those that are practically into this series.

If i can get some other people's input here...then i can safely do the changes. The Commanders and Ren's Eine Finale is fine enough. The one that needs input here or something of that nature is the Tier 6 upgrade for the main cast of KKK.

 

[SchroKatze]

But doesn't Eleonore burn a Country, and Machina being compsrable to her? And Schreiber is above both of them. Amd, as far as I remember from DI, they don't focuses on Destruction, right?

For the Ren vs Machina and Albedo vs Bey, it can be just a PIS, right?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Unless i am mistaken, based on scimming through , It seems alright to me as well Cross.

 

[ALRF]

PIS? No i don't see it, Eleonore has never burned a country (she doesn't have such feat...), while Machina is superior to her and Wolfgang is superior to both of them due to soul count.

 

[Extreme123dz]

I agree about the downgrade of the Commanders

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Its not really PIS. But then again, Both Beatrice vs Eleonore and Bey vs Schreiber is a "the non commander battling a losing fight"

 

[Aridwolverine]

I'm not so knowledgeable on Dies Irae but I would like to say this.

You propose that characters such as Elenore should be downgraded to Tier 7 for being combated by the likes of Beatrice. However, is there any proof that Elenore was fighting at 100% full power and has Beatrice inflict any damage to her. Otherwise it wouldn't be inconsistent if she was holding back the entire time.

Not saying that I doubt you or anything. If there is any such evidence, than I agree with the downgrades.

 

[Extreme123dz]

^i remember if all 8 Swastikas are Open, they will use all of tei tru power, the exmaple are Kei Route when Eleonore face Riza

 

[SchroKatze]

But in the verse, the Spiritual Armor/Soul Mamipulation just neutralizes damage if the difference between soul stocks is too high.

So... Since the Commanders are explicit above the regular members in Soul Stock, both of the fights ended with PIS.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

It doesn't really completely render something useless. Unless an Apostle have a really massive soul stock, as in, Reinhard massive (which they don't have). Normally it just made them very durable and resistant towards something. But you could say that the fights end with plot convenience, but the whole fight wasn't

 

[Reppuzan]

If the stats are currently inconsistent with the profiles, then I have no problems with this downgrade.

It does make sense given that members of the LDO have clashed with the Commanders without being instantly one-shotted by a "million times power difference". In addition, it widens the gap between the Commanders and Rein further, which makes sense given that his power is bottomless compared to theirs.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Well now~

Looks like i got enough supports for something here at least~

While idk what everyones thoughts are on the Tier 6 upgrade for Kajiri Kamui, i at least got something for the Commanders and thus i can handle that one later when i get back online.

And from the looks of things, it seems as though the idea of back scaling KKK to DI (if the calc is alright to everyone) doesn't seem to fly much here.

 

[ZERO7772]

The three commanders are inferior to Kemono-dono even back in IWKB when he was much weaker than he is in DI

 

[ALRF]

Pretty sure though if the calc is agreed, the Commanders keep their rating , since the Commanders will scale from Wilhelm who is stated to be much stronger then Keishirou.

 

[ZERO7772]

I dunno about KKK but going by DI alone the commanders should be tier 7 is my point

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

First part I agree that the cast obviously scales to this calc and well DI could scale due to wilhelm>>>>Keishirou but that's just me thinking on that

Well the commanders while superior to a lot of the regular members they are not OVERWHELMINGLY just strong to either one-shot ppl like cain not really 1 million cause well they wouldn't be damaged even (Beatrice managed to make a neck wound to Eleonore while wilhelm managed to keep hurting and draining wolfgang and not get one shotted so easily) like ppl said the ending is plot but the fight isn't due to them not getting wholely destroyed in seconds so in other words yeah the commanders would be on the higher spectrum in scale comparing to the regular members but not THAT different from them in raw power

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I must note that - not in all cases - but most of the fights between commanders VS. "average joes" (Ren, Wilhelm, etc.) had them on their Assiah which even with 5 Swastikas open, the bare minimum for a commander to appear, was more than enough to overpower the average character. From what I've seen, Assiah Commanders are way inferior, and somewhat on the same tier as average characters, to Yetzirah Commanders.

It is also directly stated through narration that, with careful and precise Soul Manipulation, it is possible for a lower-tiered character to hurt one of a larger tier and way higher soul quantity. From what I've understood when playing the novel, the souls within one's body aren't just a "layer of armor", it is an actual army. You can focus their spiritual power much like how a commander would control his army. Kei managed to harm Eleonore through that, by assembling her souls on a spearhead formation.

Also, I agree with you, Cross. These two points are true (Sadly, even the last one...), although there are still plenty of statements that the commanders are tens, if not hundreds or thousands times stronger than the average LDO member, so there's that. I can try to upload and show all the statements on that that I have seen so far.

 

[ZERO7772]

^The things with commanders is that their scaling is shaky because we only had one statements and it does lack feats to support it, eleanor being one million times stronger than regular LDO member can easily be exaggeration for the sake of it and you can't take every word on how it comes, we had plenty of statements for DI character to move at the speed of light but we didn't accpet any of them because they are not reliable and here we place the comanders at tier 6 because of one line that lack the feat to support it

Yes Eleonore stomped Ren using only her Assiah but just because they can stop Regular LDO members doesn't justify their ratings and in many other cases the LDO members can hold thier own againts them

-Beatrice can fight Eleonore

-Ren can fight machina

-Bey can fight Schreiber

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Both Beatrice and Bey were fighting a losing fight. And Ren managed to fight off Machina by abusing his Briah which gave him massive speed boost, Ren himself stated that Machina is indeed stronger than him. Ultimately all of that say that the Commanders are still above pretty much everyone else by a significant margin

 

[ZERO7772]

^Mean nothing again and no one said LDO members could fight the commander's equaly at thier peak but they can hold their own, it's not like Braih can make you million time stronger it just activat your ability, Ren could withstand attacks and trad attacks with machina and Ren himself is weaker than Cain physically

if we follow the one million time thing then any Commander should bitch slap the LDO and done but that wasn't the case

 

[EliminatorVenom]

@ZERO

The statement of the millions is shaky, yes, but we have plenty (About three) of statements that say that they are at least 20x stronger than the average LDO member.

And again, I didn't say they should have Large Country rating. I just said that they could be of a higher rating than 7-A in Yetzirah, by other statements and feats.

Again, it is directly stated that through precise Soul Manipulation, you can wound people of a higher tier.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

It should be worth noting that Eleonore vaporised Tubal Cain with just a spark of her cigar. And she has to go all-out in order to have the flames affect Schreiber and Machina. Well, Schreiber is a special case since his body automatically self-destructs on contact so his durability is kinda wacky in his Berserker form. It hinges entirely on his Regenerationn being capable of outlasting the opponent.

It should also be noted that Beatrice could give Eleonore a fight because of how her speed vastly outstrips Eleonore. But I do agree with the nerf. Commanders being at 6-A is iffy. Hell, if I am not wrong the million times was more referring to the difference in heat between Samiel and Leonhart.

You know, the difference between the centre of a nuclear explosion and the sword which melts steel.

Edit: Also, Bey was only capable of "hurting" Schreiber due to how his Ber'iah works: It plunders the energy/life force of the opponent. Not so much a DC as it is hax. He could never hit him with a stake. Although to be fair he did stake Schreiber's mouth at the very end when he got a surprise attack in.

 

[ZERO7772]

Thing is there nothing supports the Low 6-B for the commanders yes they are much stronger than LDO members but we don't know exactly by how much

Heck i never saw the line that says eleanor is million times stronger than LDO members in the first place

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

I never supported it in the first place as far as I remember. Or maybe I did and changed my mind after.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alright i'm back.

Yeah given these points and such, while i still haven't gotten any much input of the Tier 6 upgrade for KKK (They get that scaling from what ALRF said to me a few days back), it seems that the Commanders being of a lower tier makes sense.

Now as the thing about them being at least city to mountain level was said when they weren't near their full power (Going by Extreme's scans he gave out in the last or current Masadaverse discussion thread), perhaps something like "at least Mountain level" can work? I just don't see the mil times statement ever working no matter what tbh. Especially with what EMC clarified here of what it may have been referring to.

Though idk if it may affect the other characters ratings of "likely mountain level" or not, but one thing is clear and that is the Commanders are superior to them for the most part. To what degree, we don't know. But they should definitely be solid mountain or at least mountain as Eleonore in one route vaporized Cain and Machina has OHKO'd him while not near his full power. And Schreiber of course is stronger than both of them and likely would have wrecked Cain in a similar manner like them.

So what do anyone here say of this?

 

[ALRF]

I'm ok with the commanders being At least 7-A or even just solid 7-A , they are after all logically superior to the normal LDO members and...there isn't much to say about that really.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alrighty.

As for KKK's upgrade, as noted, Lina at the time found it be pretty alright to him. Though there was that point of Donttalk's comments about "sizing", i'm gonna assume it's alright to add it anyways as i doubt there would be any more comments about that one.

Thing is idk if the statement from the calc'd feat may be referring to vaporizing just the surface of Japan or the entire country so...perhaps just go with the low-end of it? The context of the feat sounds really confusing tbh now that i think of it...

 

[Extreme123dz]

question, all the battles of the commanders were not in their states "nerfed" because all the Swastikas were not opened? because Eleonore mention this (4/8 Swastikas opened/half power):




i remember fight about 4-7 Swasticas, im not on the final Chapter of Rea so, i dont know if all are opened.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I can't understand the question enough but i assume you mean they were not in their nerfed states due to all the swastikas being not opened?

Well even then, there was the fights they had in Kei's route in Rein's castle after only 7/8 Swastikas were opened. Even then, i'm pretty sure once all 8 are opened do they end up getting the "Atziluth" boost with Reinhard as that's what the ritual thing is supposed to do...IIRC.

Though then again at just 7 or maybe 5-6, the Commanders can use their Briahs so they're right about at their fullpower by that point...maybe, idk. I can't really answer/or understand your question enough, Extreme.

@All: Anyways, does anyone not mind if i start downgrading the Commanders here? We still have the matter of dealing with KKK's upgrade. Though on that one, idk which end is accepted other than reading that the calc is fine from at least one of our former calc members here so...

 

[Extreme123dz]

I can't understand the question enough but i assume you mean they were not in their nerfed states due to all the swastikas being not opened?
Well even then, there was the fights they had in Kei's route in Rein's castle after only 7/8 Swastikas were opened. Even then, i'm pretty sure once all 8 are opened do they end up getting the "Atziluth" boost with Reinhard as that's what the ritual thing is supposed to do...IIRC.

Though then again at just 7 or maybe 5-6, the Commanders can use their Briahs so they're right about at their fullpower by that point...maybe, idk. I can't really answer/or understand your question enough, Extreme.

NP, its my problem when English is not my native language/idiom e.e

the point is, all Commanders are "nerfed" because all of Swastikas are not open, this is why (i believe) the others (like Beatrice) can "match" against them (even in briah whitout the Hax??? and PIS?? :v), if all Swastikas are open, its a brutal stomp i think.

i dont know if in Rea Route, the Commanders are in his full power/ all Swastikas are open...

an opinion.

 

[ALRF]

@Cross, i guess it's safe to just use the low end for the scaling, as it seems accepted by Lina.

@Extreme, if i'm not mistaken about you're question, the Commanders aren't at their full power with that amount of Swatiskas opened.

 

[Extreme123dz]

@ALRF yes

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alright. Actually, i'll just wait another day then for the KKK scaling as i want to edit all of the profiles at one time.

If there's no more other opinions on it, i'll just go ahead and add it to the KKK profiles (of the ones that truly scale) and of the DI downgrade.