Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

[Pikaman]

I appreciate the effort, but I think we should handle the replacement tier if and after enough agreement that 3-C should be removed is garnered.

Oh yeah of course just laying groundwork in the circumstance of 3-C being removed

 

[Pikaman]

Granted, I gotta ask doesn't Paper Mario have some pretty crazy feats? And didn’t Mario have like a whole game teaming up with him, seems reliable enough for scaling

 

[Armorchompy]

Granted, I gotta ask doesn't Paper Mario have some pretty crazy feats? And didn’t Mario have like a whole game teaming up with him, seems reliable enough for scaling

We consider Mario and Paper Mario to be the same individual, minus the one in Paper Jam being considered different. Either way, they do scale to each other, yes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, ideally those should be downgraded too, but I'm sure you'd agree.

Well, you mentioned the "Superheroes holding back" which not going to be verse specific for reasons in your blog. But a lot of those only apply to fight scenes and not so much things like attempting to stop an airplane from crashing.

I'm not sure I understand. Is this the censored name of a verse you dislike/disagree with the ratings of?

It's a verse I like overall, and actually a verse where tiers hold up IMO, but the reason I censored the name is due to being officially the most overused whataboutism. And my key word is that I agree with you we should absolutely avoid that one especially. Personally, I think it sounded obvious with the number of censored letters.

But my next dayoff is Monday, though even that's a busy day. But I may weigh in some more elaborate input at a better time.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's a verse I like overall, and actually a verse where tiers hold up IMO, but the reason I censored the name is due to being officially the most overused whataboutism.

Oh of course, It Which Should Not Be Named.

Personally, I think it sounded obvious with the number of censored letters.

in hindsight it was, thought it was guilty gear for some reason

But my next dayoff is Monday, though even that's a busy day. But I may weigh in some more elaborate input at a better time.

That's fine, do take care.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Based on the sandbox’s premise finding a more consistent estimate of the cast’s tier seems fine to me. No clue what that’d be or if a Varies would work.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I disagree, and that is why. The majority of the feats listed in that sandbox are like tier 9-8. Unless we're actually putting Mario this low (god no), they are gonna remain outliers, and pretty strong ones too. A tier 9 feat is just as much of an outlier to large star as it is to galaxy. Just putting it as PIS solves far more problems than it creates

 

[Pikaman]

It

I disagree, and that is why. The majority of the feats listed in that sandbox are like tier 9-8. Unless we're actually putting Mario this low (god no), they are gonna remain outliers, and pretty strong ones too. A tier 9 feat is just as much of an outlier to large star as it is to galaxy. Just putting it as PIS solves far more problems than it creates

It’s a lot of PIS for not a lot of Galaxy Level feats, Galaxy level being outliers is probably a far more reasonable conclusion

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

It

It’s a lot of PIS for not a lot of Galaxy Level feats, Galaxy level being outliers is probably a far more reasonable conclusion

Also, yes, majority of those feats are still very game mechanics. Lava, for instance. It has consistently been very unrealistic there. For instance, IRL Lava is too dense to drown in like Bowser does. Why can't it be galaxy level there? Being scripted doesn't excuse something from being game mechanics

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Yes, I looked through it, and a very good part of it are just unreasonable as anti feats. "Mario gets hurt by cannonballs" well of course, those are cannonballs on Bowser's own ship, why wouldn't they be galaxy? And yes, I'm willing to say that every character with as much content as Mario suffers from something like this

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree, and that is why. The majority of the feats listed in that sandbox are like tier 9-8. Unless we're actually putting Mario this low (god no), they are gonna remain outliers, and pretty strong ones too. A tier 9 feat is just as much of an outlier to large star as it is to galaxy.

Well then we better find a tier that actually holds up. Either find enough counterarguments or drop this, PIS it ain't when it's the default power level of the verse and "god no" ain't holding up as an argument no matter what.

Also, yes, majority of those feats are still very game mechanics. Lava, for instance. It has consistently been very unrealistic there. For instance, IRL Lava is too dense to drown in like Bowser does. Why can't it be galaxy level there? Being scripted doesn't excuse something from being game mechanics

Familiarize yourself with the blog again, I address this, and while you're at it read the game mechanics page again, this doesn't even begin to fit them. Sure, Mario lava is just more liquid than the real deal, that doesn't mean it's galaxy level. Realize how monumental of a claim that is and what the sheer consequences of something so mundane as lava being so insanely hot would be, and that there is absolutely no evidence to show this.

Yes, I looked through it, and a very good part of it are just unreasonable as anti feats. "Mario gets hurt by cannonballs" well of course, those are cannonballs on Bowser's own ship, why wouldn't they be galaxy?

Why would they be? No evidence that they're amped by magic, or built in any particular ways to be that strong. You're literally just pointing at random, mundane things and going "yeah, that's 3-C".

And yes, I'm willing to say that every character with as much content as Mario suffers from something like this

And you'd be wrong, moving on.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Why would they be? No evidence that they're amped by magic, or built in any particular ways to be that strong. You're literally just pointing at random, mundane things and going "yeah, that's 3-C".

Because why would Bowser use something 9-B against Mario? Note that as long as you don't drop Mario all the way down to tier 9, this wouldn't make any sense for him to do.

Familiarize yourself with the blog again, I address this, and while you're at it read the game mechanics page again, this doesn't even begin to fit them. Sure, Mario lava is just more liquid than the real deal, that doesn't mean it's galaxy level. Realize how monumental of a claim that is and what the sheer consequences of something so mundane as lava being so insanely hot would be, and that there is absolutely no evidence to show this.

It being more liquid automatically means it's just not the way it is IRL. Which just immediately blacklists it from being an actual anti-feat due to it just working differently. Much differently

 

[Pikaman]

There are plenty of fodder enemies Bowser uses as security measures in his own castle, the idea that canons on a ship would be Galaxy level because they are intended to stop Mario makes no sense

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

There are plenty of fodder enemies Bowser uses as security measures in his own castle, the idea that canons on a ship would be Galaxy level because they are intended to stop Mario makes no sense

Well, the ship actually makes Mario run away from it and fall down. Fodder enemies never do. There's a clear difference between the two

 

[Armorchompy]

Because why would Bowser use something 9-B against Mario? Note that as long as you don't drop Mario all the way down to tier 9, this wouldn't make any sense for him to do.

I dunno, why would he put a big button that destroys a bridge near the very same bridge he plans to challenge Mario on? Why would he fill his castles with fodder enemies that literally cannot scratch Mario?

It being more liquid automatically means it's just not the way it is IRL. Which just immediately blacklists it from being an actual anti-feat due to it just working differently. Much differently

Ok, then consider that 3-C lava would immediately incinerate the entire planet were any relevant quantity of it exist on it, and re-evaluate the validity of your claim. Just because its portrayal isn't fully accurate (with liquid lava being a very common trope in fiction) isn't enough grounds to make such insane assumptions.

I would also ask you to consider the sheer amount of anti-feats I'm bringing to the table and realize just tackling one or two isn't going to do you much favor.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You know, honestly, I don't think I'm gonna keep arguing, do as you will. I just want all people here to consider what kind of a can of worms you're opening, and what other verses you need to change if you want to remain ever remotely fair

 

[Armorchompy]

You know, honestly, I don't think I'm gonna keep arguing, do as you will. I just want all people here to consider what kind of a can of worms you're opening, and what other verses you need to change if you want to remain ever remotely fair

I mean, I would thing other verses that deserve downgrades should receive them, if that is ultimately the correct way to treat them. Obviously I cannot handle them though, it was one heck of an effort just to gather anti-feats here.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, between "literally everything in the world is the tier it should be" and "everything is 3-C scaling from tiers we made up", I guess the most reasonable assumption is the first.

 

[thetechmaster36]

"Mario gets hurt by cannonballs" well of course, those are cannonballs on Bowser's own ship, why wouldn't they be galaxy?

I don't see why they would be. It looks like you're assuming that Bowser somehow manages to create 3-C cannonballs from normal technology, even though the 3-C rating comes from Power Stars/Grand Stars? Are you assuming that he's making the cannonballs from Power Stars?

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

This may be a bit nitpicky but

" if these characters had cosmic-level durability these events would not even bother them in the slightest"
...We are so superior compared to ants and yet their bites can really hurt. Various insects can make us wince in pain despite us being much stronger.

 

[The_Impress]

y'know, slight derail, why don't we just, split Mario by game?

Them having fuckall canon is acknowledged by Miyamoto, they're more akin to Bugs and Mickey in that regard, currently, the more impressive games feats-wise are getting by consistency bogged down shit like Mario Party. This isn't Marvel or DC or even Sonic, where there is an active attempt to have a cohesive narrative across the games, really.

Default assumption should never be for this kinda shit, "oh everything is canon unless stated otherwise", quite the opposite I feel.

 

[Armorchompy]

y'know, slight derail, why don't we just, split Mario by game?

Them having fuckall canon is acknowledged by Miyamoto, they're more akin to Bugs and Mickey in that regard, currently, the more impressive games feats-wise are getting by consistency bogged down shit like Mario Party. This isn't Marvel or DC or even Sonic, where there is an active attempt to have a cohesive narrative across the games, really.

Default assumption should never be for this kinda shit, "oh everything is canon unless stated otherwise", quite the opposite I feel.

I think there's an argument to be made either way, but this is a pretty huge thing that I think would require its own CRT, or Q&A thread.

 

[Pikaman]

I think the idea of splitting Mario by games makes sense, he’s inconsistent and issues arise game by game as a continuity with shared canon, but that’s not really what Mario is

 

[Armorchompy]

This may be a bit nitpicky but

" if these characters had cosmic-level durability these events would not even bother them in the slightest"
...We are so superior compared to ants and yet their bites can really hurt. Various insects can make us wince in pain despite us being much stronger.

That's true, but not only is the gap between an ant and a human much smaller than between tier 8 and 3, and they use "piercing damage" to hurt us, but all they can do without venom is cause a bit of ache, never actual serious pain or injury.

 

[The_Impress]

I think there's an argument to be made either way, but this is a pretty huge thing that I think would require its own CRT, or Q&A thread.

I mean not particularly more massive than a 3-C to 9-B suggested downgrade for Mario, this proposal shakes that up immensely, so it needs to be acknowledged before going on with your revision.

Don't think you can dismiss it by "too much work" when it IS functionally an argument against your proposal.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Also, "this thread is not downgrade Mario to any specific tier, but to just prove galaxy is an outlier"
That's.... not how it works. We need to know what level Mario gets bumped down to, cause any individual level could make just as little sense as galaxy. We need to know our destination to evaluate it, otherwise it will come off as an excuse to make Mario weaker

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean not particularly more massive than a 3-C to 9-B suggested downgrade for Mario

Literally not what I'm doing, but more importantly, my intention is the actual point of the thread, this is just a tertiary thing.

Don't think you can dismiss it by "too much work" when it IS functionally an argument against your proposal.

No, it's an entire rework of the verse's treatment to its very core and would have to be applied regardless of this thread's success. So as such, keep it outta here.

 

[Pikaman]

No, it's an entire rework of the verse's treatment to its very core and would have to be applied regardless of this thread's success. So as such, keep it outta here.

We do need to find an alternate tier for Mario if we are going through with this, and Impress’ idea makes perfect sense to me as said alternative. No reason to keep this very much related idea on how to rework the verse out of discussion

 

[The_Impress]

Literally not what I'm doing, but more importantly, my intention is the actual point of the thread, this is just a tertiary thing.

Then what is the point of your thread? ******* up the grounds of the verse's ratings and leaving?

No, it's an entire rework of the verse's treatment to its very core and would have to be applied regardless of this thread's success. So as such, keep it outta here.

Good, the entire rework completely wrecks your proposals of "63 antifeats" off Mario Party and the like. It's immensely relevant.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, "this thread is not downgrade Mario to any specific tier, but to just prove galaxy is an outlier"
That's.... not how it works. We need to know what level Mario gets bumped down to, cause any individual level could make just as little sense as galaxy. We need to know our destination to evaluate it

Too bad, evaluating your "destination" isn't related to proving 3-C is an outlier, and nitpicking any given tier into being unusable won't make it any less of that.

otherwise it will come off as an excuse to make Mario weaker

bad faith argument, thanks.

Then what is the point of your thread? ******* up the grounds of the verse's ratings and leaving?

No, it's "******* up the grounds of the verse's ratings" (thanks for bad faith btw), or rather just proving the current AP rating as unusable, and then finding a solid replacement, as is explicitly stated in the OP and in the sandbox, thanks.

Good, the entire rework completely wrecks your proposals of "63 antifeats" off Mario Party and the like

Cool, I will welcome the separate CRT that gathers specific evidence for this rework with warm expectations. You can't just go "lol why don't we completely redo the treatment of the verse" halfway through a thread, you have no evidence for it and you haven't gathered together a coherent argument.

 

[Pikaman]

and then finding a solid replacement

Which is what Impress is doing…

 

[The_Impress]

No, it's "******* up the grounds of the verse's ratings" (thanks for bad faith btw)

...you're literally doing that why are you acting like it's otherwise

and then finding a solid replacement, as is explicitly stated in the OP and in the sandbox, thanks.

And said "solid rating" gets turned completely over its head if the verse split happens, so it's relevant to the thread.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think the canon issue has been argued and people are defensive about it before so it definitely needs its own thread

 

[KLOL506]

Calm down guys, lighting up the thread like this does no one any favors.

 

[Armorchompy]

...you're literally doing that why are you acting like it's otherwise

I am proving something is an outlier. In absolutely no way is that what you described.

And said "solid rating" gets turned completely over its head if the verse split happens, so it's relevant to the thread.

Cool, better be quick with your research then, because counters to that are completely different from counters to my CRT and two debates cannot be had at once in the same thread. It's definitely not the open and shut case you seem to think it is.

 

[The_Impress]

I am proving something is an outlier. In absolutely no way is that what you described.

Also known as ******* up the grounds for the ratings being on file.

Cool, better be quick with the gathering then, because counters to that are completely different from counters to my CRT and two debates cannot be had at once in the same thread. It's definitely not the open and shut case you seem to think it is.

You're LITERALLY 2xing the amount of work needed to be done here in application, man.

I'll make the thread but if this isn't put on hold until that thread's conclusion, you're just doing application with a decent potential ot be up-turned.

 

[Pikaman]

I think making a separate thread is a horrible idea, debating the validity of a current rating and possible replacements of said rating if the current rating is discarded should be kept together in one thread. This shouldn’t be difficult

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

A canon split was a really contentious topic in past CRTs. That proposal always ended up being rejected based on Miyamoto‘s “It’s always the same Mario across all games” statement

 

[Armorchompy]

Also known as ******* up the grounds for the ratings being on file.

If you're trying to portray me in the most demonic way possible it could be vaguely described like that, not that it matters since you so conveniently excluded the part where I would obviously help with finding the new ratings.

You're LITERALLY 2xing the amount of work needed to be done here in application, man.

If it gets approved. Realize that there is a ****-ton of references, callbacks and half-continuity in Mario games, not to mention there straight-up is continuity in some series. I don't think you realize how nebulous this whole deal is. I don't even disagree it's just a mess.

I'll make the thread but if this isn't put on hold until that thread's conclusion, you're just doing application with a decent potential ot be up-turned.

I'm fine with waiting once and if the thread is made, application won't be coming until a long while anyway though since we're still in the debunking phase.

 

[Pikaman]

A canon split was a really contentious topic in past CRTs. That proposal always ended up being rejected based on Miyamoto‘s “It’s always the same Mario across all games” statement

Same Mario doesn’t equal same power, he can decrease and increase power in between games for a multitude of reasons, I don’t think anyone is arguing different Marios, just that his power level is clearly different across games, but consistent within them, which means that making separate keys is probs best