Pokemon speed revision...screw it, might as well.

[Arceus0x]

Alright boys, big bad wigglytuff is here with another big revision and today i am gonna bring up sth that has been bothering me for a while. Idc if it goes through or not but i need to do this.

My main issue today is...
WHY THE HECK DO THE EVOLUTIONS SCALE TO DIFFERENT SPEED?

The current difference between the speed of the different stage pokemon is in the thousands...but why? Why has it always been like that? Like i get legendary pokemon blitzing normal mons but i don't see the 10000x times difference between 1st stages and 3rd stages?
Like idk a single good example where a pokemon is legitimately blitzed by someone who isn't already a speedy pokemon.
We have




we also have the manga where in chapter 110 of pkmn adventures we have a Murkrow fighting against a piloswine and a polited.

In games the final evos are mostly faster, yes...or not? Slowbro is quite literally slower than a magikarp.
Magikarp has 80 base speed and Slowbro has 30...wow.
Also the fact that pre-evos can hit anyone at all is proof that they're not so much slower compared to final evos.

Also there's the mystery dungeon games where pokemon can enter direct combat even if it is pre-evo vs final evo.

If we use the trainer levels as reference to determine the canon pokemon level of the main character in Pokemon sun and moon then the Normal trial trainer should have pokemon on 1st or 2nd stage, aka lvl 13 is the average. Meanwhile they have to fight a fully evolved totem Gumshoos.

Basically the most evidence that the speed is different for each evolution is the fact that final evos are somewhat faster sometimes.

I get that the argument could be used to argue about the tier of the pokemon, but i've seen low level pokemon get one shot many times but i haven't seen them get blitzed much.

Conclusions:

This should be the speed:

At most FTL | FTL | FTL

First evos are indeed rather slower so they scale to "at most", secondary evos are constantly going toe to toe with final evos like that one time ash's average charmeleon massacred a bunch of eggsecutors.

anyways im going to go nap. see ya.

 

[theultimate5105]

First off just covering the game mechanics portion
In Game stats are not used for scaling because of how stupid they can be (Dialga, Palkia and Giratina having some stats higher then Arceus's or Groudon and Kyogre having some higher stats then Rayquaza I could go on about this with In game stats being mainly for balancing)
Mystery dungeons the main cast are outliers to the species normally as well as it being in game balancing
Trainer levels should not be thought of as being relevent when Trainers have higher levels then Gym leaders as well as being Higher then Elite Four Members, Champions and Finals Bosses sometimes. These trainers who are just random people with jobs are strong enough to stomp gym leaders so their levels should not be relevent

 

[Arceus0x]

First off just covering the game mechanics portion
In Game stats are not used for scaling because of how stupid they can be (Dialga, Palkia and Giratina having some stats higher then Arceus's or Groudon and Kyogre having some higher stats then Rayquaza I could go on about this with In game stats being mainly for balancing)
Mystery dungeons the main cast are outliers to the species normally as well as it being in game balancing
Trainer levels should not be thought of as being relevent when Trainers have higher levels then Gym leaders as well as being Higher then Elite Four Members, Champions and Finals Bosses sometimes. These trainers who are just random people with jobs are strong enough to stomp gym leaders so their levels should not be relevent

That whole thing was just supporting evidence to show in the case someone brings it up. Main evidence is the lack of evidence for the speed keys being lower.

 

[theultimate5105]

That whole thing was just supporting evidence to show in the case someone brings it up. Main evidence is the lack of evidence for the speed keys being lower.

Its terrible as supporting evidence when Game mechanics cause extremely messed up stuff for balance

 

[Arceus0x]

Its terrible as supporting evidence when Game mechanics cause extremely messed up stuff for balance

Like i said, i used it in case someone were to decide to use it as a counter argument

 

[LordGriffin1000]

"I get that the argument could be used to argue about the tier of the pokemon, but i've seen low level pokemon get one shot many times but i haven't seen them get blitzed much."

This is true but the difference in AP wouldn't just allow them too one shot them, they'd be splattering just from casual back hands alone... but they don't. So I wouldn't say this argument is sound.

I'm natural on this since my lack of knowledge regarding Pokémon and it's scaling.

 

[Arceus0x]

"I get that the argument could be used to argue about the tier of the pokemon, but i've seen low level pokemon get one shot many times but i haven't seen them get blitzed much."

This is true but the difference in AP wouldn't just allow them too one shot them, they'd be splattering just from casual back hands alone... but they don't. So I wouldn't say this argument is sound.

I'm natural on this since my lack of knowledge regarding Pokémon and it's scaling.

Look man if it was my will I'd scale every pokemon to mountain level and lml+ but best i can do rn is this.
There's just no example of such a speed difference.
Lower level mons get blasted away by final evos rather casually and it is quite the consistent thing as well. Meanwhile when it comes to speed there are times when mid tier mons end up besting final evos in speed. There's just no example of such crazy blitzes as suggested.

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I agree with first and second stage scale to FTL

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with second stages scaling, neutral on first stages.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

forgot about this for a while due to school, but anyways, bump. This is a big revision but screw it, i might as well push through

 

[Arceus0x]

we already have 1 mod approval, ill request more people to give it a look.

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think this is probably fine?

No reason why lower mon can't scale. Like, do first stages have anything to scale to by themselves anyways? Or was it always just scaling being their justification?

 

[Arceus0x]

I think this is probably fine?

No reason why lower mon can't scale. Like, do first stages have anything to scale to by themselves anyways? Or was it always just scaling being their justification?

They scales to MHS+ via dodging lightning... When they can dodge attacks from FTL mons...

 

[QuasiYuri]

Disagree unless we do the same for AP or durability. No reason to only use this argument for a single stat.

 

[Arceus0x]

Disagree unless we do the same for AP or durability. No reason to only use this argument for a single stat.

i would really like that actually
ahem
you are saying that despite my very clear presentation of the problem.
There is no reason to scale them down. At least to scale them THAT much down.
At least the AP is somewhat reasonable, lower stage pokemon often getting rolled by the higher stages is very common throughout the series. However speed... It just has no reason to be lower. Lower stages have been often shown to be slower than lower stages such as how slowbro is a slowbro or snorlax being the way he is whilst there are mons like pikachu and the flying types who outspeed them on occasions.
Ash's torracat was outspeeding Incineroar is another example, funny thing being Ash had it for a good 20 years shorter than Kukui.

There is absolutely no reason not to scale them to each other in speed as there are NO examples of fully evolved pokemon being 1000s of times slower than lower stage pokemon.

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh this issue with species being able to consistently fight each other despite the place in the Evolution line, because of many factors such as training or level of affection with the trainer.

So I'd suggest something like this for each evolution line from Baby to 2nd stage.

AP/Dura: Varies from {Insert tiering for wild species} to High 7-A+

Speed: Varies from {Insert tiering for wild species} to FTL

This also reminds me to also remove all the calcs that are used from trained mons to wild ones (like Dawn's Piplup one).

 

[Arceus0x]

Tbh this issue with species being able to consistently fight each other despite the place in the Evolution line, because of many factors such as training or level of affection with the trainer.

So I'd suggest something like this for each evolution line from Baby to 2nd stage.

AP/Dura: Varies from {Insert tiering for wild species} to High 7-A+

Speed: Varies from {Insert tiering for wild species} to FTL

This also reminds me to also remove all the calcs that are used from trained mons to wild ones (like Dawn's Piplup one).

I think that that would be a very different and controversial revision.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, they go hand in hand for the purposes of scaling in here, but in any case the speed is what's being talked about right now in here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes for now I'd like to at least make speed the same as there are literally no reasons to scale them to different speeds

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think that that would be a very different and controversial revision.

The basis is the same tho.

 

[Arceus0x]

The basis is the same tho.

ik, but it is also different. I want to make sure that everything goes smoothly. If you want to make all stages of pokemon the same tier then i won't stop you but i recommend actually discussing it with, you know, all of our big shots?
Either way i wanna do the speed for now

 

[GyroNutz]

Eh, I kinda agree with Strym here, in the sense that if we accept first and second stages (down)scaling to final evolutions in terms of speed then we should consider scaling them in terms of AP too. That'd be hiding the outlier otherwise.

In a vacuum, speed scaling is less controversial since the FTL feats are based on dodging light-based moves which all forms, in theory, can use. However all of the Relativistic to FTL calced feats that we have are performed by fully evolved Pokemon. Not to mention, there's usually a notable increase in speed when a Pokemon first evolves (e.g. when Ash's Noibat evolves into Noivern) - perhaps not enough for a blitz, but definitely significant. It is also worth pointing out that the examples shown above are performed by well-trained Pokemon, and that stat-scaling even as supporting evidence is a hard no.

That being said, I don't really have a strong opinion against this, and would like to hear what others think.

 

[Bobsican]

There's also cases of species becoming slower upon evolving, BTW, such as Staryu into Starmie.

 

[StrymULTRA]

However all of the Relativistic to FTL calced feats that we have are performed by fully evolved Pokemon.

Tbh we can find across the manga and anime eps feats about dodging Solar Beam/Signal Beam from 1st/2nd stage mons.

 

[Arceus0x]

Either way the minimum you can scale unevolved pokemon is Relativistic, at most FTL. The rest should be plain FTL

 

[QuasiYuri]

ik, but it is also different. I want to make sure that everything goes smoothly. If you want to make all stages of pokemon the same tier then i won't stop you but i recommend actually discussing it with, you know, all of our big shots?
Either way i wanna do the speed for now

You either do it all at once or do not. It's all the same idea after all.

 

[Arceus0x]

You either do it all at once or do not. It's all the same idea after all.

If i get some people on board then yeah I'll do it, but the AP is way more controversial than Speed. For now i wanna add speed.

Another reason is if i decided to do it all at once we'd have to do the thing we did last time, you know, having to fully upgrade hundreds of profiles in like every category.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If i get some people on board then yeah I'll do it, but the AP is way more controversial than Speed. For now i wanna add speed.

If it's controversial despite being the exact same then it means the entire thing's controversial.
Slowpoke going at Dragonite speed is p controversial.

Another reason is if i decided to do it all at once we'd have to do the thing we did last time, you know, having to fully upgrade hundreds of profiles in like every category.

Which is better to do in one go than two.

 

[Arceus0x]

If it's controversial despite being the exact same then it means the entire thing's controversial.
Slowpoke going at Dragonite speed is p controversial.

Which is better to do in one go than two.

Slowpoke line js the only one that is truly controversial, however we can just make their travel speed below average human and a FTL attack speed which would make more sense.

There are examples of a notable AP difference in the case of the current difference between evolutions and there are people who would simply disagree with that for the sake of disagreeing.

Either way this is my CRT and it is mainly i who'll be doing the upgrades.
If you wish to make an ap upgrade right now then i ain't stopping you.

 

[GyroNutz]

There's also cases of species becoming slower upon evolving, BTW, such as Staryu into Starmie.

To be fair, mobility isn't really what we mean by speed

 

[QuasiYuri]

Slowpoke line js the only one that is truly controversial, however we can just make their travel speed below average human and a FTL attack speed which would make more sense.

I likely could find more examples just by checking a bit I think.

 

[Arceus0x]

I likely could find more examples just by checking a bit I think.

Alright. Do it. Give me evidence of the 1000x+ gap between pre-evolutions and final evolutions

 

[QuasiYuri]

Alright. Do it. Give me evidence of the 1000x+ gap between pre-evolutions and final evolutions

You know there's no precision such as "100x+ gap" when the games consider supersonic as 3rd stage speed. That's just being dishonest here.

Might as well ask to scale all Pokemon to the legendaries because they didn't get an infinite blitz difference.