Pokemon speed revision...screw it, might as well.

[Arceus0x]

I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you get better soon.
Don't push yourself too hard.

thanks

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I have to disagree here, at that point may as well just scale them all to Massively FTL+ for say Ash or some other random Pokémon not getting blitzed by base Mewtwo in the first/second movies. It just opens up too many gaps in scaling for my taste.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

1. Fully Evolved and Trained
2. 2nd Stage and Trained
3. 2nd Stage and Trained
4. Fully Evolved and Trained
5. Equivalent to 2nd Stage and Trained
6. Fully Evolved and Trained

I know, not saying it scales to non trained pokemon. Almost nothing does

 

[FinePoint]

I know, not saying it scales to non trained pokemon. Almost nothing does

Well, I believe the OP is claiming something to that effect.
We already make some exceptions for, eh, exceptional trained Pokémon.
Ash's Pikachu is the prime example.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah I have to disagree here, at that point may as well just scale them all to Massively FTL+ for say Ash or some other random Pokémon not getting blitzed by base Mewtwo in the first/second movies. It just opens up too many gaps in scaling for my taste.

I think thats a false equivalence

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah I have to disagree here, at that point may as well just scale them all to Massively FTL+ for say Ash or some other random Pokémon not getting blitzed by base Mewtwo in the first/second movies. It just opens up too many gaps in scaling for my taste.

then prove that they have a 1000x to 800000x times gap
Mewtwo wasn't serious when he fought the fully evolved pokemon in the first movie, he only got serious against mew.

 

[Imaginym]

I kinda agree that it's often unclear how much evolution, training, or protecting a trainer amplifies a Pokemon.
Though we do have a scan that @XXKINGXX69 linked earlier in this thread:

Anyway, if I understand right, what we need for this is evidence of untrained (Or very untrained.), lower stage Pokemon matching or doing better in speed than higher stage Pokemon?
Especially wild Pokemon matching trained Pokemon?

I wouldn't be surprised if such feats exist, but I don't know if they do or not.

 

[FinePoint]

I kinda agree that it's often unclear how much evolution, training, or protecting a trainer amplifies a Pokemon.
Though we do have a scan that @XXKINGXX69 linked earlier in this thread:

Well I believe it's been a theme in the series for a long time, it especially ramped up with stuff like Mega Evolution and Z-Moves.

Anyway, if I understand right, what we need for this is evidence of untrained (Or very untrained.), lower stage Pokemon matching or doing better in speed than higher stage Pokemon?
Especially wild Pokemon matching trained Pokemon?

Yes, basically.

 

[Arceus0x]

i already provided one so, anyone remember any other examples? I am not in a state to think properly at the very moment

 

[Imaginym]

One means of finding instances of trained Pokemon battling wild Pokemon may be to check their entries on Bulbapedia; Specific Pokemon owned by some individuals have their own pages, which list some of the battles they've done.

Beyond that, it may be a matter of combing through episodes summaries.

I also recall MatPat doing a theory about how much EXP Ash's Pikachu should have gained in its battles up to Gen 5. IIRC, he published his documentation, so this may provide reference for Wild Pokemon vs Ash's Pikachu, however, many of these may be considered outliers.

By using their or Wikipedia's episode lists, you could comb through their short summaries & check what episodes have relevant Pokemon.
Their species pages also list what episodes that species appears in, & what it did.
Bulbapedia, in their episode pages, notes what species of Pokemon appeared, as well as noting who those Pokemon belong to, if anyone.
They also provide galleries via Filb.de for every episode.

Unfortunately, beyond that, it's still a lot of work to check, but at least this way we can go through the episodes easily to see, for example, what Baby Pokemon appear in which, then check the long summaries to see which Pokemon battled what.

Should we begin with Baby Pokemon?

 

[Arceus0x]

One means of finding instances of trained Pokemon battling wild Pokemon may be to check their entries on Bulbapedia; Specific Pokemon owned by some individuals have their own pages, which list some of the battles they've done.

Beyond that, it may be a matter of combing through episodes summaries.

I also recall MatPat doing a theory about how much EXP Ash's Pikachu should have gained in its battles up to Gen 5. IIRC, he published his documentation, so this may provide reference for Wild Pokemon vs Ash's Pikachu, however, many of these may be considered outliers.

By using their or Wikipedia's episode lists, you could comb through their short summaries & check what episodes have relevant Pokemon.
Their species pages also list what episodes that species appears in, & what it did.
Bulbapedia, in their episode pages, notes what species of Pokemon appeared, as well as noting who those Pokemon belong to, if anyone.
They also provide galleries via Filb.de for every episode.

Unfortunately, beyond that, it's still a lot of work to check, but at least this way we can go through the episodes easily to see, for example, what Baby Pokemon appear in which, then check the long summaries to see which Pokemon battled what.

i remember blue and red fighting some wild pokemon in chapter 116 of the manga

 

[Imaginym]

i remember blue and red fighting some wild pokemon in chapter 116 of the manga

That may be good to check.

Any opinion on what species of Wild Pokemon battles should be sought out first?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Just saying that trainers tend to hold back against wild Pokemon. Ash for example, does not like hurting pokemon, going so far as to taking a hits to prevent pokemon from getting injured

 

[Imaginym]

Just saying that trainers tend to hold back against wild Pokemon. Ash for example, does not like hurting pokemon, going so far as to taking a hits to prevent pokemon from getting injured

Good to keep in mind, but not all trainers does so, & even Ash doesn't always hold back, nor do his Pokemon always hold back.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Good to keep in mind, but not all trainers does so, & even Ash doesn't always hold back, nor do his Pokemon always hold back.

His Pokemon listen to him and can read his mind, Ash almost always does, except for when he's fighting a trainer. You can tell this when you realise he has Z crystals but only recently went back to get them against Volkner

A lot of trainers also don't like using full power on wild Pokemon. Unless its a tsundere rival like Trip or Gary who don't really care

They also hold back for obvious reasons when wanting to capture Pokemon.

 

[Imaginym]

His Pokemon listen to him and can read his mind, Ash almost always does, except for when he's fighting a trainer. You can tell this when you realise he has Z crystals but only recently went back to get them against Volkner

A lot of trainers also don't like using full power on wild Pokemon. Unless its a tsundere rival like Trip or Gary who don't really care

They also hold back for obvious reasons when wanting to capture Pokemon.

Since we are seeking scans of trainers battling Pokemon, it may be useful to provide your evidence as anyway, since those might be useful.

 

[Arceus0x]

His Pokemon listen to him and can read his mind

wrong, at best Pikachu and Greninja can. The rest can't unless i am missing some individual cases

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Since we are seeking scans of trainers battling Pokemon, it may be useful to provide your evidence as anyway, since those might be useful.

Ok

wrong, at best Pikachu and Greninja can. The rest can't unless i am missing some individual cases

I'm not saying they literally read his mind, I thought that was obvious

 

[GyroNutz]

How do we treat solar beam being used by them?

SoL attack speed

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

SoL attack speed

And when they are able to dodge and keep fighting?

 

[GyroNutz]

And when they are able to dodge and keep fighting?

I mean, that's basically what I've been asking for throughout the thread. Final stage evos have several lightspeed dodging feats in the anime, hence their ratings. Where's the feats for first/second stages?

 

[StekFence]

Those are trained Pokemon, you can't use them to scale to regular wild Pokemon. Especially if its Ash Ketchum himself

I wouldn’t say a newborn is well trained

 

[FinePoint]

Read my next messages or Ill break your kneecaps

This is not acceptable conduct.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

This is not acceptable conduct.

It was a joke but if you think its serious then ok

 

[Arceus0x]

bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Le bump

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.