Pokemon Profiles Scaling and Composites

[SomebodyData]

It has become apparent that the issue of scaling and the composite profiles of Pokemon have reached a tipping point and has to be discussed. The problem is rather complex, basically we have to set up:

- Canon Scaling Rules:

- Use of Composites

- Organization of Scaling and Calcs

 

[SomebodyData]

Aiden's suggested Rules

"Composite"
I'm just saying that Anime and Manga can scale from Game.

Game does not scale from Anime/Manga.

And Anime doesn't scale from Manga and viceversa.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I thought that we scaled Pokedex/Move feats to all incarnations because its general lore, while we can't scale anime/manga feats to game characters. Meanwhile, the actual Pokemon pages are composites, sans Pokemon used by particularly skillful trainers.

Am I wrong in that assumption?

 

[SomebodyData]

It seems like while the first part of your reply is true, I think the controversy stems from the confusion brought out by the composite profiles, in which it starts to get hard to separate the various canons and their feats.

 

[RadicalMrR]

So when the pokemon profiles were back people made a couple of unofficial scaling rules so I just wrote them down to keep track of them, here they are.

I agree with Aiden's post above.

My proposal is we have 1 key for each piece of media detailing their best feat of said media, for example.

Key: Charmander Game | Charmander Manga | Charmander Anime | Charmeleon Game | Charmeleon Manga | Charmeleon Anime | Charizard Game | Charizard Manga | Charizard Anime

Also the order is completely dependent on which form of media has the best feat.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I thought that we scaled Pokedex/Move feats to all incarnations because its general lore, while we can't scale anime/manga feats to game characters. Meanwhile, the actual Pokemon pages are composites, sans Pokemon used by particularly skillful trainers.
Am I wrong in that assumption?

Not totally.


For example, create profile for Red in the games, logically, it should scale from Game feats. However, someone probably confused (Because of the composite profile without key separation) and added speed stats from Anime only feats.

What I'm try to say is: composite profile are ok, but everything should be clarify to avoid confusion

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I literally have no reason why they aren't scaled between continuities. We say that we take Pokémon at their utmost potential, but then we limit them to a single media. We took out a legitimate speed feat for Charizard (his own feat mind you) for this reason.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I literally have no reason why they aren't scaled between continuities. We say that we take Pokémon at their utmost potential, but then we limit them to a single media. We took out a legitimate speed feat for Charizard (his own feat mind you) for this reason.

For the same reason that Red doesnt scale from Ash or viceversa.

 

[SomebodyData]

I semi-agree with Radical

Some medias only have one or another feat, but are important for the scaling.

I think that most profiles should be composites unless one form of media has several feats (Including stamina, intelligence, etc basically for the more minor sections of the page), this way the profiles can be significantly cleaner and smaller.

That said, I think that if my idea would be accepted, that it should be distinctly stated which form of media a certain feat came from. And under a "Feats" section should be the lesser feats from the various forms of media, in case someone wants to scale with a media that the composite page would normally not show.

 

[RadicalMrR]

@Cal read my post, we would have up to 3 different speeds for charizard and as far as i'm concerned people could use whichever one they want.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Snip

Well, Game, for example, lacks on speed feats if it wasn't from scaling, but we can use the scaling from anime/manga to help there.


While Anime and Manga could be pretty much a really weak verse (Or just unknown tier) if it weren't scale from game.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal, well for example medias / timelines etc, can vary wildly. Ie look at Homura Akemi compared to Homura Akemi (Puella Magi Homura Tamura) for example. The same occurs in Pokemon, ie look at Darkrai.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah. I don't see that at all. Again, were taking Pokémon at their utmost potential on their profiles, and with this, we aren't. We're saying that Charizard is only this fast here, and this strong here, which contradicts our definition. And this happened before we allowed trainers here, and even then, we're assuming that Red, a master trainer, hadn't mastered his Pokémon. We are much more lenient on other verses. For example, the GT verse with everything (scaling from filler and movies). Or when Monaka was first introduced.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yep @Aiden, that's exactly what I'm thinking. This way the profiles wouldn't be either too unnecessarily cluttered or too Unknown in some stats.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal well in GT's case, thats because the movies and filler are actually canon to GT.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@SD. Darkrai is like that because of mystery Dungeon and Pokepark, and we only decided that because he has a lot of tier 2 feats. No different from how we do Mewtwo for Pokken and him, Ray, and Deoxys for SMD

 

[AidenBrooks999]

@SD, yeah, but, In my suggestion, while Game can affect Manga/Anime

nothing is going to affect Game, except game itself.


@Cal, you know, if people want to use them as "they strongest" theu could 1) Clarify that theu want to use it "composite" or 2) Use the strongest and equalize speed.

 

[RadicalMrR]

I think most Pokemon should be at least human level in game, to support this in HG/SS every Pokemon can keep up with the player's running speed.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I think most Pokemon should be at least human level in game, to support this in HG/SS every Pokemon can keep up with the player's running speed.

They are not fighting, so why run at 50 mph?

Also, why trainers have not reactions on their team level? They could track and even react to a pokemon fight even on the lastest second.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Cal well in GT's case, thats because the movies and filler are actually canon to GT.

Well, yes and no. We're assuming them to be because despite contradictions, cameos exist And the contradictions are even greater there than in Pkmn

 

[VileShadows]

I feel as if there's an issue with the Mewtwo page. The 6-B feat comes from the anime, even though the games are the primary canon, and this feat accounts for "base" Mewtwo. On the other hand, Super Mystery Dungeon Mewtwo is at High 5-A, but it's considered only part of "composite" Mewtwo despite the fact that Super Mystery Dungeon and the anime are both equally separate universes from the games. Mewtwo should just be High 5-A period.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Cal. Rad's proposal could possibly clutter the pages.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Aiden my suggestion would not affect the games, as it would be technically a composite that would note the type of canon. Mine basically has the size of Cal's idea, but the organization of yours.

@Cal Either way, unlike GT, these are blatantly different timelines and continuities.

@Shadow isn't the feat from the Pokedex not the anime?

 

[VileShadows]

@Shadow isn't the feat from the Pokedex not the anime?

He technically doesn't have any game Feats. Lugia is the one with the 6-B Pokedex feat.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes, which is the one Mewtwo scales off to begin with

 

[VileShadows]

Yes, which is the one Mewtwo scales off to begin with

And he scales off of this why? He's never encountered Lugia in the games before.

 

[SomebodyData]

Because Moltres, Articuno, Zapdos are almost at Lugia's level to begin with, those three, according to the Pokedex, Mewtwo is superior to.

 

[VileShadows]

Because Moltres, Articuno, Zapdos are almost at Lugia's level to begin with, those three, according to the Pokedex, Mewtwo is superior to.

I don't think the Pokedex has ever explicitly stated that, but it's to be expected that Mewtwo is superior to them anyways. "At Least 6-B" makes more sense since it's not like Mewtwo has a cap set.

I'd argue that if Darkrai gets manga scaling for his base, Mewtwo gets SMD.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with SD's idea.

 

[SomebodyData]

Being superior to pokemon weaker than a 6-B pokemon will not be "At least 6-B", his rating is fine.

Darkrai's scaling for base is for manga only. Mewtwo already has SMD on his page as well.

 

[VileShadows]

Being superior to pokemon weaker than a 6-B pokemon will not be "At least 6-B", his rating is fine.

Darkrai's scaling for base is for manga only. Mewtwo already has SMD on his page as well.

To be fair, he's not just superior to them individually, but likely all of them as a trio, which are equal to Lugia.

 

[LordXcano]

Yeah. I don't see that at all. Again, were taking Pokémon at their utmost potential on their profiles, and with this, we aren't. We're saying that Charizard is only this fast here, and this strong here, which contradicts our definition. And this happened before we allowed trainers here, and even then, we're assuming that Red, a master trainer, hadn't mastered his Pokémon. We are much more lenient on other verses. For example, the GT verse with everything (scaling from filler and movies). Or when Monaka was first introduced.

Here's the problem, these things are completely different continuities. Pokemon can have differing potentials based on which continuity they're in.

For example in the games UB-02 dodging lightning is god-tier speed, yet everyone and their mother can dodge lightning in the anime.

In the games some attacks are literally beams of light, yet in the anime they are just energy beams.

Hell there's even "lightspeed Diglett" from the anime, which is not even remotely implied in the games.

Pyschics in the anime are portrayed to have far more power and hax than in the games, where most of their ability lies in just "energy blast/mind attack."

An even more egregious example of this is Seismic Toss, which in the anime is just throwing someone pretty hard, meanwhile in the games it manipulates gravity to chuck someone into orbit.

 

[SomebodyData]

No and no? Where did you even get any of those ideas? Is there any evidence for all of them?

Actually, can someone bring up the pokedex entry where Mewtwo is stated to be the strongest of all Kanto pokemon to clear this up? I can't seem to find it...

 

[LordXcano]

No and no? Where did you even get any of those ideas? Is there any evidence for all of them?
Actually, can someone bring up the pokedex entry where Mewtwo is stated to be the strongest of all Kanto pokemon to clear this up? I can't seem to find it...

Are you talking to me or SGO because I can provide evidence for every one of these claims.

 

[VileShadows]

Actually, can someone bring up the pokedex entry where Mewtwo is stated to be the strongest of all Kanto pokemon to clear this up? I can't seem to find it...

I've looked, it just says his battle abilities were "raised to the ultimate level" in several of them, it doesn't explicitly mention being the strongest in Kanto, though it's implied.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmm that's interesting, although I seriously doubt it's implied to defeat some of the strongest pokemon in Kanto all together

 

[VileShadows]

Hmm that's interesting, although I seriously doubt it's implied to defeat some of the strongest pokemon in Kanto all together

Considering how Mewtwo has been portrayed in the different canons, it would make sense. I would say he's stronger than Ho-Oh and Lugia, but that's just me. Seems like they didn't try to replace Mewtwo's throne until Gen 4 with the gods.

 

[SomebodyData]

Mewtwo's portrayal in different canons isn't as powerful as you think

Not that it matters, I think I've made my point, now we wait for what others think

 

[AidenBrooks999]

@Aiden my suggestion would not affect the games, as it would be technically a composite that would note the type of canon. Mine basically has the size of Cal's idea, but the organization of yours.

As long as people could understand what scales from what, and what feat is for what media, I'm ok with it.

 

[VileShadows]

Mewtwo's portrayal in different canons isn't as powerful as you think

Not that it matters, I think I've made my point, now we wait for what others think

Well he's been consistently portrayed as the final boss of many different titles even up to some of the more recent games, he's mentioned as being the "strongest Pokémon" (even if it's not true) in many games, which doesn't really get said about most others, and there's SMD, so I'd say Mewtwo is pretty powerful.