Pokemon: Our Non-Legendary Profiles Aren't Good

[The_real_cal_howard]

Let me lead off by saying that I'm sorry if I'm too mean in this. But I'm as...direct as I'm going be to get my point across. As it's a point to be made.

This is something the complete opposite of what was happening before. Instead of being too loose with our profiles, we're being too conservative.

Way too conservative.

For a while, we had Diglett above legendaries because of "lolfeats." That's the problem with how we rate this verse. I'm not counting manga Pokemon like Delibird and Octillery. So disregard them.

But I digress.

Discounting legendaries, if there's not explicit mention of one Pokemon fighting another, or they're not supposed to be very tied together with each other, then we can't scale. And it leads to bullshit. I'm not going to be blunt with this. Because we rank Mega Garchomp and Mega Metagross at the same level as how we rate Diglett and Magnemite, when even their bases should be leagues above them. Even if you want to exclude to generations, Alakazam and Gengar should be stronger than Diglett and Magnemite. And because of our "lolfeats" attitude, we'd have to rank Pokemon such as Salamence and Goodra as 9-B.

But I should be used to it.

We were willing to put "lolfeats" over sensibility for a short while to make Gothitelle the only Pokemon to be 4-A, including legendaries, when any Pokemon in tier 4, legendaries included should be stupid beyond belief, but I'm digressing slightly. If I told someone on the street (that knows Pokemon) that Corsola is hundreds of times stronger than any final form starter after gen 2 combined, I'd be laughed at.

And frankly, I should be. I've already got Azzy's support on the fact that Pseudo's should scale to each other. Can someone legit tell me that it's just a coincidence that Game Freak put no more than 2 Pokemon per generation that have the same stat total, are exclusively used by champions (final E4/totem in Salamence's/Kommo-o's case), are a pain in the ass to evolve, and a pain in the ass to even find in their first forms with an absurdly low catch rate?

And before someone says "It's just speculation", it's not like we haven't used that before. This isn't just pseudo legendaries. There are dozens of Pokemon that should be above these. Altaria, Magmortar, Electivire, the aforementioned Gengar and Alakazam, and all starters after Feraligatr, Golem, Aerodactyl, Haxorus, etc.. Most final form water types are weaker than the energy released from Magikarp's evolution.

And hell, why don't we have Mega's scale to each other (not counting Rayquaza and Mewtwo)? It's not even a matter of stats. Again, I have Azzy's support on this one, so don't think this is just me wanking. And I don't want them deleted. But something has to change. I've kept my mouth shut for too long about that.

 

[Reppuzan]

I still don't think we should be using stats to scale, but given how they're regularly pitted against each other, I can see the Pseudo-Legendaries at least being remotely comparable.

But what about the Legendaries do you want to change? We can't just scale them all to each other haphazardly, especially with what happened to the Alola legendaries,

You're saying that we're being conservative, but what feats have you found that prove this?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not legendaries. I have no problem with legendaries.

 

[Promestein]

I agree, though the specifics of the scaling should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal

Sorry, misread things.

But as we stated, we can't scale haphazardly since power-scaling from the anime and manga would be a nightmare given how inconsistent they are.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Prom.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I put in the OP that manga is an entirely different beast altogether, but so far, all the feats I've listed were from the games. Like scaling to Tyranitar's game feat for pseudos, putting starters and stronger Pokemon above Corsola, Magemite, Diglett and the like (Or scaling to Charizard/Typhlosion, other starters. Whatever's best.), and scaling megas to Abomasnow's feat like the OBD does.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally consider Pokemon as a nearly incomprehensible mess in terms of power-scaling between different continuities, so it is hard for me to be of much help regarding this.

 

[Reppuzan]

Perceptions of what's stronger in Pokemon are generally difficult though.

I understand that the Starters have generally better showings than Corsola, but does that mean we make a well-trained Pikachu stronger than a well-trained Dragonite? Or every Pokemon Massively Hypersonic for tagging Zebstrika?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Why should we scale Pseudos to one another? Why should we scale starters to one another? Why should we scale Megas to one another?

The only thing that links them is that they are a subset of Pokemon, nothing else. The notion of Pokemon like Corsola being weak is pure head canon. Beedrill and Butrefree are considered weak to us but a gym leader uses them they are considered strong in universe.

To give a clear image of whats being proposed ill compare it to the Merged Zamasu situation, plenty of people are confident that the Grand Priest is stronger than him but we dont upgrade him until its explicitly shown. Another example is the GoDs, the sheer fact of them being GoD wasnt good enough to put them at 3-A so I had to prove it.

Can u just imagine someone coming to the site and the explanation for the Pokemon being at that tier is essentially "We think it makes sense" or "They are one of these" despite there not being any evidence that they are equal in power, its like scaling every Captain in Bleach to one another.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not every Pokemon should get a profile. For example, I don't expect Lumineon or Probopass to get Massively Hypersonic and 8-A via scaling to Zebstrika and Corsola respectively. Heck, I don't think anyone should scale to its speed, given that Zebstrika is the same speed as Raikou somehow, and if they, among other Pokemon were the same speed, it would be flawed. But I digress. Starters in general shouldn't be close to Dragonite. Only Pokemon that aren't legendaries that should be close to Dragonite should be Tyranitar, Metagross, Salamence, Garchomp, Hydreigon, Goodra, and Kommo-o. And while someone like Mantine or Suudowuudo shouldn't scale to being superior to fodder Corsola, Pokemon that are quite obviously superior (starters, hyped up 3rd form evolutions like Alakazam or Magmortar, or hyped up normal Pokemon like Spiritomb or Zoroark) should scale. Also, I don't think it's a matter of training. Btw, this is what I think of for scaling:

Mega Pseudos: Scale to Mega Tyranitar

Mega others: Scale to Mega Abomasnow (except maybe Audino)

Starters: Scale to Charizard or Typhlosion (Upgrade/Dowgrade the starters that currently scale depending on which one is chosen)

Hyped up normals (Gengar, Alakazam, Electivire, Magmortar): Scale to the higher powered Earth Power users (i.e. Nidoking and Nidoqueen and Flygon)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Rad. Simple. It's quite possible that Merged Zamasu is stronger, because he's called a "cheat character" in canon, Zamasu is actually a threat, and we know nothing about the GP and how he compares. Corsola gets done in by a Marenie. Corsola can't survive in slightly polluted waters, when even Feebas can. Corsola aren't used by literally any trainer of note, except anime!Misty, in which it is almost always overwhelmed at first, and if it doesn't use Recover, it loses. You talk to anyone outside of this site, and they will tell you that there's no possible way that Salamence is weaker than ******* Magnemite, which doesn't even register on the radar of anyone. And I do mean anyone. Sorry for the language, but this is bugging me. Not you, but the fact that the situation lasted for so long. Imagine someone coming to the site and seeing that. Because again, "lolfeats". Again, even Azzy finds this asinine.

And speculation has never been used on profiles before...

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

I think I actually agree on this one.

 

[Jinx666]

Ok, im starting to think maybe we need the pokemons base stats in game to help decide the real tiers. Not dominately, only loosely

As in if there is a massive difference in attack between Diglett (55) and Garchomp(130), then due to being such a massive difference, it can be stated that Garchomp scales to diglett. I mean come on, we should be able to state the obvious and not have some candy ass pokemon like Corsola above things like Rampardos

Or we can find a feat within an NFE that we know if loads weaker than things like Metagross and Garchomp and scale it, at least.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If I may add to this conversation...

Corsola is 8-A to Low 7-C.

Garchomp is 8-C.

Corsola is in danger of being overhunted by Toxapex, who is never expressed to be a particularly powerful pokemon.

Garchomp has no natural predators and is treated as an obscenely powerful pokemon.

This is why Cal is saying the way we handle this now is objectively pretty stupid. It's not a matter of "Scale random pokemon to each other for no good reason". It's a matter of "There is no in-universe way for this very low-tier pokemon to be orders of magnitude superior to things often considered amongst the most powerful regular pokemon in the world".

 

[Antvasima]

Azathoth seems to make sense to me.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I agree, though the specifics of the scaling should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.

Literally this. There are far less problems than there are being made out to be when you just analyze different pokemon...differently.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All Legendaries scale to the God Trio because the developers say so.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thank you Azzy for saying what I've been meaning to orders of magnitude better than I ever could.

Also, I got a legit laugh out of Matt's latest comment.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Azzy and Cal here. In actuality this is why I haven't really bothered with Pokemon stats like I used to. We were too conservative and honestly I personally felt that having the likes of Metagross weaker than a Diglett or Corsola. It was nonsensical from an in series perspective. I had made multiple threads that tried to have us be less conservative (Like having like 3 keys for certain trainers and such). However, eventually I just gave up honestly.

It isn't because we want to wank pokemon all together. It is simply going by how the series portrays said Pokemon...aside from the all legendaries scaling to each other thing....that wouldn't fly...XD

 

[Reppuzan]

@Cal

I'm not particularly against this logic, but we have to be selective about it to avoid a scaling mess.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

As long as I don't see a Low 7-C Butterfree I'm fine.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

I agree with Azzy and Cal.

For example, just because Corsola can use Earth Power, it doesn't necesserily mean it's on Low 7-C. Try comparing Earth Power used by a Corsola (65 Sp.Atk), a Flygon (80 Sp.Atk) and a Mega-Garchomp (120 Sp.Atk), there's NO WAY they are on the same level. Corsola doesn't even get STAB on it. It's like comparing a punch from a irl martial artist and a punch from Knuckles

 

[Reppuzan]

@Golden

Stats are arbitrary game mechanics. We can't use them to determine rankings.

 

[Kevyn_S._de_Andrade]

Is this a staff thread? Can I comment here?

I agree with Cal.

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Then how are you supposed to make the rankings, if you can use neither the in-game stats nor the anime/manga since they are non-canon?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Pokemon files are composite. Plus look at how our files are done.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Our Garchomp profile is only 8-C?

Anyway, I'd be fine with scaling most fully evolved Pokemon to Corsola. In fact, Corsola is borderline Town level, not even a single Kiloton under the 7-C threshold so I'd be even okay with scaling them to Town level for being stronger.

I'm also okay with scaling Megas to Mega Snowthing whose name I can never spell.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Darkanine

You mean Abomasnow?

But yeah, I suppose the notion of Corsola, which regularly gets bullied, being stronger than a set of the strongest non-Legendaries on each continent is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So let me get this straight.

-Pseudos and legends scale to Tyranitar.

-Starters and notably powerful final evolutions like Haxorus or Flygon can scale to Corsola at least. But of course this will be judged on a case-by-case basis as well.

-Megas scale to Abomasnow.

Is this correct?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Flygon already scales off of Earth Power.

I think most fully evolved Pokemon like Ursaring, Snorlax, Scizor, Alakazam, Gengar etc should scale off of Corsola. The ones who shouldn't are the notably weak ones like Butterfree, Beedrill, Blissey, etc.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Okay then. I can help perform any changes this afternoon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But now here is the question. What would our reasoning be?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I was going to suggest scale the initial starters to Pikachu (Since he looks like a regular substitute in Yellow)

But, since Blue got Eevee w/o problem, Wally used Zangoose to catch a random Ralts and other trainers clearly started they journey without starters: Shouldn't all baseline pokemon (Except very weak pokemon like Magikarp or solo Wishiwashi) be at least Building level+?

About scaling starters to each other: the problem comes with Sun and Moon, where the mid stage starters can battle a 7-B wishiwashi, while other struggle to be "At least Town level, likely City level" in their final stage... (Although, in alola you face a shit-ton of legendaries and things like Mother Beast lusamine so, maybe is just a overpowered game)

 

[Antvasima]

Didn't we write some series-specific regulations for Pokemon? Somebody would likely have to rewrite them according to our new standards.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Let's be honest. Every thing is City level to Mountain level in Sun and Moon..XD

But honestly that stuff would be labelled as well trained Pokemon.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Stronger first form Pokemon being 8-C is okay to me. But I'd like more input on that.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dark Butterfree and Beedrill aren't "notably weak", it's a headcanon produced mostly by their stats (Heck, some gym leaders use them).

@Azzy and Cal I can see how your example of Corsola and Garchomp works, however there are problems with what I see is being suggested (at least, what I get from reading this)

However, assuming what Dragon is suggesting is what you want to be done:

-Outside of game stats, pseudos have literally no connection.

-Mega Pseudos also lack any real connection.

-Say starters from Hoenn, have no connection to any stater from other regions.

Essentially, while I can see how scaling to final evolutions via Corsola and the like can work, the rest is essentially trying to use headcanon to get rid of rather stupid power scaling and feats, which is no better.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with Aiden about baseline Pokémon being 8-C+. Except for stuff like Whishiwashi, Magikarp, Feebas, Caterpie, etc. Which means I agree with Aiden on that too.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with SD.