Philemon scaling to the Collective Unconscious

[DarkGrath]

This CRT has been made to discuss a contentious point in the Persona franchise, specifically around Persona 2 since let's be honest who here actually knows anything about Persona 2

Philemon states on occasion that he is an "incarnation of the collective unconscious", as shown here:


The important question being asked is how this statement would actually scale Philemon to the CU itself. The CU is fully capable of creating entirely new realities, as shown through statements like this one.

On top of that, statements like these:



seem to suggest that the Collective Unconscious has made many, many different realities before. It's from this, and other similar statements, that the Collective Unconscious is sometimes considered to be 2-B in its entirety.

The problem here is actually somewhat separate; the issue being whether or not Philemon actually scales to this at all. As mentioned before, Philemon is considered to be an "incarnation of the Collective Unconscious". One assumption made with this in mind is that he scales to all of it, or that he's comparable to it, but it's extremely debatable whether this statement would confirm such a thing at all.

As such, this thread has been created to openly discuss and debate the topic as a whole. Given the scaling of P2, the decision of whether Philemon is considered comparable to the CU is extremely impactful and could lead to major tier changes.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with Philemon scaling to the CU. Lets start off with another "translation" of what Philemon says, which was in the same imagur folder. Philemon outright says he is the personification of the Collective Unconscious.

per┬Àson┬Ài┬Àfi┬Àca┬Àtio

nou

1. the attribution of a personal nature or human characteristics to something nonhuman, or the representation of an abstract quality in human form.
2. a figure intended to represent an abstract quality.
3. a perso, animal, or object regarded as representing or embodying a quality, concept, or thing.

Outright saying that he, and the CU are a united existence. If these definitions weren't enough, Philemon says this. Take note of how he says "indivisible" from it. Philemon also takes note of how he has been watching humans for eons, observing Humanity's strong souls, while the Crawling Chaos brings them to the abyss.

In my mind, there shouldn't be any reason for Philemon not to scale to this.

 

[Solacis]

That's all well and good. However, none of that allows him to scale.

Representations of an abstract quality are not assumed to have full control over said abstract quality. A representative of a nation's government does not have unrestricted unilateral control over its actions. The same applies to anything a person can be a representative of.

Feats take priority over statements, and while Philemon and Nyarlathotep have statements about their being incarnations of the CU, they have no feats on the same level as what the latter has been shown to achieve.

A reminder that Nyx Avatar has made the same claims of indivisibility between itself and True Nyx, yet it's abundantly clear that the latter is a literal universe above the former.

I'm against Philemon scaling to the CU.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The collective conscious is the yin and yang. CU is both sides. Nyar is black and phil is white. Phil can't do anything directly because he is simply a guide (the white bearded man archetype from jungian psychology) and should humanity listen to him they will triumph. Nyar is essentially the full embodiment of the shadow side of the CU. Full of desire and traits we wish not to see except he brings it to the forefront and can directly interfere because of his nature. Phil is also implied to be very much stronger than the cast as well as nyar. They would both easily scale to the universal+ stuff, but probably not the full CU. No one would scale to that.
	~ Dr.whitee​

This alome should prove they scale to some degree of 2-B, but definitely not all of it. Philemon states that it's possible for entire realities to be created from the desire of souls, and it's possible within the Collective Unconscious, yet Maki alone created an alternative timeline, and it's proven there are far more out there.

 

[Solacis]

That's not the distinction we're trying to make, though. Yes, Philemon would scale to some extent no matter what, but the distinction here is whether he scales to 2-B or not.

At minimum, he's Low 2-C, or even 2-C, because he can't be inferior to his own creations. But the full extent of the CU, as we know it, is 2-B, and neither Philemon nor Nyarlathotep have feats on that level.

And besides that, Nyarlathotep's already confirmed inferior to True Nyx based solely on the fact that all Shadows originate from True Nyx, and not Nyarlathotep. Though we'll save the whole Nyx discussion for another CRT, since that's a whole load of things to get through.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, think of it like this.

Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta we're both planetary, yes? However, Vegeta had a far larger AP advantage despite being within the same tier. Rough analogy, but overall the point I'm trying to make is that they should indeed scale to 2-B, but on a far weaker scale via scaling.

 

[Solacis]

Saiyan Saga Goku backscaled via his feat of fighting Vegeta, who had a clear Planetary feat. Philemon has no such feats to scale to the CU.

Philemon has no feats, only statements. Indefinite statements, no less. The closest thing Philemon has, according to the given screenshots, is rewriting the timeline at the end of Innocent Sin. But even that feat is contestable, since we can't know whether he did everything under his own power, or he just caused a chain reaction by erasing the P2 cast's first meeting.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm inclined to agree with Solacis on this matter.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He didn't rewrite the timeline. It's not that he can't, it's just his physiology doesn't allow him to, which is what AE Type 1 says lacking a physical form, and even if it had one, they're just avatars. He's merely a guide of human souls, meant to guide, observe, and oversee, like Dr.Whitee said. Unlike Nyarlathotep, who can actually do damage due to his nature. Keep in mind, there's also a boss fight with him, like Dr.Whitee says, which has him far above the normal cast.

Philemon requested the cast to do so because of the fact that it isn't his job to intervene, that's why he only attempts to persuade humanity instead of forcing their actions. And iirc, I believe Kandori was stated to be able to control all dimensions, which likely means universes in this context, but was merely a puppet for Nyar.

Maki was compared to the first humans who created the Collective Unconscious here, and Tatsuya outright uses it here.

Pandora was also attempting to open Pandora's box, which would bring the world to an end, which again, should mean universes as she isn't inferior to Kandori.

Phile and Nyar should easily be far superior to everyone here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And just to quote ShinyMagicalGirl:

So I'll try to make it short: In Tatsuya's Scenario in the Eternal Punishment PSP remake, there's a way to determine this scaling chain, and it's via the Kadath Mandala.

To keep it brief, here's what the translation said about it:

"There may still be a way though: the fragments of Shiori's self are scattered throughout the domain of collective unconscious known as Kadath Mandala, the place where Personae and demons sleep and the uppermost domain of the abyss Philemon and the Crawling Chaos inhabit. Tatsuya's other self, his Persona, also comes from Kadath or, in other words, the place where the image of the gods from legends is born. Persona users of old who understood the power of their dreams and could visit the world of the collective unconscious also called it the domain of visions."

The Kadath Mandala is basically the furthest region of the Collective Unconsciousness, where Philemon and Nyarlathotep truly lie in. Compared to the normal CU, this place is much more dangerous. Igor says that this place was filled with Shadows and Demons thanks to the Faceless God, also known as Nyarly. Why do I assume that the Kadath Mandala is a separate realm that require more power than entering the regular CU? Well remember that way back Innocent Sin, Tatsuya already entered the CU. So this means Kadath is an even further realm.

So what's so important about this place? Well first of all, you cannot just enter this realm, unlike the normal Collective Unconsciousness or the Sea of Souls. Igor explains that while Tatsuya has immense talent as a Persona user, he cannot open a portal to enter Kadath Mandala. Remember, this is already after Innocent Sin, so we know Tatsuya can enter the regular Collective Unconsciousness. But not the Kadath Mandala. So to aid this, Igor calls upon Chandraputra, who is actually the legendary Persona User known as Randolph Carter. He ended up like this after the Faceless God ripped out his mind and soul and placed it on an alien body. Chandraputra is a legendary Persona User who holds the Silver Key that allows passage through the Ultimate Gate to the world of subconscious, Kadath Mandala, and that Silver Key is what helps the P2EP gang to enter Kadath Mandala.

Now, what's interesting here is what Igor said. He said that Tatsuya Suou, being already a massively talented and experienced Persona user since Innocent Sin, couldn't hold a candle to Maki Sonomura. Why? Well with her strong will alone, Igor said that Maki can enter Kadath without using the Silver Key. The only Persona users powerful enough to enter Kadath are Maki and Randolph. Now wait, why are we assuming Maki is stronger than Tatsuya anyways? It's just her mind that allows her to enter Kadath. Well, no not really. You see, Personas are from one's ego and mind, and seeing as how Maki can enter Kadath just by willing it, then this means her will is much stronger than Tatsuya's. And the stronger the will, the stronger the Persona. Here's the line in the translation:

"Nevertheless, how can Tatsuya gain the same power as the Persona users who travelled to the world of the collective unconscious? He already has great talent as a Persona user. If one has enough practise, then through their dreams they'll be able to open the door to the depths of their heart; Sonomura Maki was one of these people."

Maki is the only one in P1-P2 who can do this. And the interesting thing about the Kadath Mandala? It is home to demons and Shadows far more dangerous and powerful than anywhere else. In fact, according to the pastebin translation, "Persona users of old who understood the power of their dreams and could visit the world of the collective unconscious also called it the domain of visions". This is actually the reason why Randolph was mind and soul ripped by Nyarly. "Chandraputra reveals to the party that he is in fact Randolph Carter, who had his emotions stolen by Nyarlathotep in the past because of the work Randolph did in mankind's collective unconsciousness and the Kadath Mandala. Through sheer force of will he has been able to take human form and with the return of his emotions he can become a complete human again." This was taken from the wikia page.

Another reason why the Kadath is so dangerous: Igor warns the Tatsuya that the mental energy of humans is now flowing in the form of shadows and Philemon's power is severely weakened. This was caused by Nyarly himself, to make sure his equal Philemon won't butt in.

So now, we know that the Collective Unconsciousness exists, but no one has ever entered the highest realm where everything is stronger and more dangerous. In fact, the Persona 2 EP team fights gods like Izanami, Angra Mainyu, and eventually The Faceless God in Kadath.

We also know that Philemon, as the creator of Personas, can grant and take away Persona abilities; he did this with Yukino from Persona 1. He is also equal to Nyarlathotep, who can defeat the ancient, more powerful Persona users like Randolph. Therefore, Philemon and Nyar should be stronger than all Persona users. When you defeat Nyarly in the Tatsuya Scenario, he doesn't really die after all. So we can assume that even though Tatsuya fought against those two, he doesn't fully scale to Nyarly and Philemon.

So! With that in mind, we can set a scaling chain for P1 and P2.

Nyarlathotep = Philemon > Maki Sonomura = Ancient Persona users > Gods and Demons inside Kadath > P2 EP team >> Other Persona users (P1, IS, etc.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baseline 2-B.

Apologies for the terrible quote format, goddamn site wouldn't work.

 

[Solacis]

That was horribly long winded, also, not addressing the issue at all.

First of all, what exactly puts the P1 and P2IS Persona users at 2-B, much less that far above baseline?

The only reason any Persona-user is 2-B is via backscaling from Philemon and Nyarlathotep, iirc. You can't use that chain as supporting evidence for those two being in 2-B since it's reliant on them being 2-B in the first place.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Probably because of the fact that multiple people like Kandori and Pandora threatening to destroy all of it.

Then there's the fact that Tatsuya entered and tapped into the CU, Maki was considered a stronger Persona user than even that and can create universes just like Tatsuya, and could enter the KM out of Will alone/comparable to those who made the CU, the Gods and Demons were the strongest there being the furthest in the CU and the strongest, so much so that the P2ES felt they were getting crushed in space by their sheer presence, and Nyar treating Kandori like a puppet.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Multiverse Level.Tatsuya Fought against Nyarlathotep, who controls and embodies the entire Collective Unconsciousness alongside Philemon. Strong enough to leave a bruise on Philemon's cheek, who is equal to Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep has stated that all the souls of humanity return to and come from the Sea of Souls and the CU, and Philemon also stated that since the start, the nature of each human soul and a person's sheer willpower has enough potential to create new realities. Since Philemon and Nyarlathotep have watched over humanity ever since their conception, the souls within the CU must be over 107,602,707,791, and each human soul has the potential create entire realities within the CU. This means Nyarlathotep and Philemon must be maintaining and have absolute dominion over a realm with over 107 billion universes, making them easily Multiverse in power)

 

[Solacis]

That reasoning is incredibly outdated and has already been debunked ages ago. Even Sera disagreed with it.

The potential to create new realities does not necessarily mean that potential can be reached, or that the CU already contains the power needed to create and sustain every possible reality.

Remember that the CU was made by humans. Humans affect the CU, not the other way around. Sure, every human soul has the potential to generate the power needed to create new realities, but that doesn't mean every human soul actually will. The power to create each new reality doesn't exist in the CU until the human making said reality gains sufficient willpower to do so.

Every multiversal argument so far is hinged on assumptions and rash conclusions. It's why the original upgrade to 2-B was such a shitstorm. And again, we need scans/screenshots of these claims by people like Kandori and Pandora.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I linked the ones of Kandori and Pandora earlier.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I also linked the passages where it's said Maki is comparable to the CU.

 

[Solacis]

Kandori's statement needs more context. As for Maki, she was only stated to be comparable to the original Persona-users in that she could access KM. There's no mention of her being comparable in power.

Even then, the original Persona-users didn't create the CU, the CU was developed over time as the minds of Earth's lifeforms evolved, as stated in the P3 Club Book.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

There's no mention of her not being comparable in power, too, though. The KM is the furtherest and most dangerous, meaning the fact that the strength of the shadows there should be superior to the ancient humans.

And can you explain? Kandori and Pandora all threaten to do so, with Nyar being in control of Kandori.

 

[Solacis]

That can't be assumed. A character knowing a technique that stronger characters can perform does not make them comparable. That's like saying Yamcha is comparable to Goku via both knowing the Kamehameha. Also, how does the Shadows in Kadath being the most dangerous make them superior to the ancient humans? Was there a point where they fought?

The DEVA System was a reality-altering machine that creates an alternate space that allows the user of the DEVA System to manipulate matter inside of said space. It linked to Maki for unknown reasons and thus replicated her cognition of Mikage-cho. At best, this is City level Reality Warping and Matter Manip.

Which is why I need context, actual quotes, that prove that the DEVA System was manipulating entire universes.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'll need more evidence, then. So I guess for the time being you win, Philemon is Low 2-C, likely 2-C.

 

[DarkGrath]

Would the question be considered concluded for now then? If so, we need to start evaluating which profiles would be adjusted under the "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C" rating.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, suppose so. But shouldn't it scale to everyone, with P1-2 being higher on the chain than P3-5?

 

[DarkGrath]

I mean, theoretically yes?

I don't remember off the top of my head who is ever compared to Philemon. I know that Nyarlathotep is considered comparable, so he'd scale. Nyx was comparable to the entire collective unconscious, if I remember correctly, so they'd easily make the cut. I think I vaguely remember something a while back on why Yaldabaoth might scale to Philemon? And I think I remember the reasoning, though I don't remember if it was ever accepted. Makoto with the Universe Arcana might be valid due to surviving attacks from Nyx (though Nyx is undeniably far more powerful, the way it's depicted is quantifiable to an extent, so Makoto should be in the same tier; just on a far lower scale). And obviously, the characters comparable to these characters are up for consideration. Who else?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I can't really remember, all I remember is that the P2 cast was just barely able to bruise Philemon, so that says something. I think Yaldabaoth scaled via being an administrator??

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hold on, if Nyx was comparable to the entire thing, isn't she 2-B??

 

[Solacis]

Hold up hold up. Can we get more people looking at this first? This will definitely need staff approval, since this downgrades everything Pre-P3. At least let Dragon have a look first before we move on to anything else.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Wait, it downgrades it? Aren't they already Low 2-C, likely 2-C?

 

[DarkGrath]

Hold up hold up. Can we get more people looking at this first? This will definitely need staff approval, since this downgrades everything Pre-P3. At least let Dragon have a look first before we move on to anything else.

Yeah, good idea. It'd still be good to discuss who this scales to regardless, though. Dragon and Sera would be good to ask for this.

 

[Solacis]

Wait, it downgrades it? Aren't they already Low 2-C, likely 2-C?

Technically, they were 2-C, possibly 2-B. It's just nobody cares about Pre-P3 stuff so the profiles haven't been updated in the months since that CRT was accepted.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm gonna try and get into it, since there's next to no supporters. So now, if this were to be accepted, they would be Low 2-C, likely 2-C like everyone else?

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, good idea. It'd still be good to discuss who this scales to regardless, though. Dragon and Sera would be good to ask for this.

Better to save the actual scaling to a separate CRT. Keeps things concise and easy to understand/reference for later.

 

[DarkGrath]

Yeah, good idea. Should I ask Sera and Dragon to comment here?

Also, I'll see myself if I can get my hands on P1 and 2. Frankly, they could do with way more attention than they get.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I see why you all can't stand AP/scaling stuff. Hax is surprisingly easier to understand.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, good idea. Should I ask Sera and Dragon to comment here?

Asked Sera to join the thread a couple days back, actually.

 

[DarkGrath]

I see why you all can't stand AP/scaling stuff. Hax is surprisingly easier to understand.

Meh, to an extent. I'm fine with handling the scaling stuff at this point; I just don't really know any of the scaling pre-P3 off by heart.

 

[DarkGrath]

Just asked Medeus to take a look at this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'll try to work on learning the first 2 (technically 3) games. Learned a bit more on the Collective Unconscious from this, too. We should definitely make a lore blog, this is quite confusing.

 

[Solacis]

And to think this was an unplanned CRT. We haven't even touched the planned ones yet.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Solacis makes sense.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Solacis seens to make the most sense here.