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Alright then I believe we can use Gate dimension lacking the concept of Beginning and end which indeed implies infinite size depending on how you view it. Wouldn't that be enough?
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PGR Massive Upgrade
- Thread starter AlipheeseXIV
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AlipheeseXIV
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- #123
Yes, that's the Gate.
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Is Ishamel dimension was accepted to be significant in the previous 1-C upgrade?, did this scan was bring up in that CRT?
AlipheeseXIV
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- #125
Yes, it was accepted to be significant and the scan was brought up in that CRT why?
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The spatial dimension that was used for the Gate has also been applied to Ishmael’s body.
Ishmael’s body consists of countless dimensions and causalities
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Just curious, but anyway the scan is not really direct about countless dimensions have no beginning nor end, and from my conversation with Qaw few months ago he said there is no alternate way other than direct statement such as the Honkai's one, or iirc GoW Yggdrasil have a statement about infinite in all direction
However i do see the implication in the scan, so i'm fine with Possibly/Likely Countless 1-B
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So, do we have three agree votes from the staff members?
Or do we still need more votes?
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From my personal experience with significant structures & justifications, the structure by its very nature should be stated to be infinite rather then just being stated infinite or so. The quality of infinite expanse of the structure should essentially tick all the infinite spatial axis within it's scope as the very last layer of spatial axis that binds them all together is infinite by itself.
The statement there in question is describing the properties of that very dimension. There is no concept of begining (start) or end (finish). It should straight up qualify for 1-B with that alone as that would spill over to all spatial axis it has within it.
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Let ask @LephyrTheRevanchist and @ActuallySpaceMan42 again, since we have different vote
Lephyr vote Solid rating
I vote Possibly/Likely rating
Spaceman vote countless D which in my opiniom is pretty vague, idk if he is referring to countless 1-B or just HDE
AlipheeseXIV
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But having an infinite statement would make it H1B and not 1B would it not? So if there's a statement of the Tower being infinite then what? Would that not go against the countless rating and end up going into the territory of H1B instead of just 1B?
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That why i said there is implication of all dimensions having no beginning nor end, but again you need direct statement, from what Qaw told me. So that is the reason i'm fine with Possibly/Likely rating
AlipheeseXIV
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- #133
Agree this is vague, I was going to ask them for their opinion at the conclusion of the thread anyways.
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Infinite what?, infinite in all direction or dimensions of space is infinite =/= infinite amounts of dimensions, or infinite dimensional, if it is infinite amounts of dimensions, you don't even need to prove spatial dimension being infinite in size, automatically High 1-B
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Not precisely. The Gate dimension by itself houses countless spatial axis but it is still the last point beyond all those dimensions. That's not high 1-B. Not having the concept of start and end would just apply to those dimensions by default.
AlipheeseXIV
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I'm not attempting to argue it's H1B with what I have currently provided, give me a minute.
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This dimension have no concept of beginning nor end obviously not mean there is no beginning nor end to the amounts of dimension. Hell, without that Chinese text, we could argue it is just no end to the amounts of alternate dimension, which is just 2-A
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I know. It's just I'm clarifying how it works.
AlipheeseXIV
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I would be super inclined to take your word for it if I wasn't used to how seemingly evident things on this wiki can be subjugated to heavy scrutinization. So if I have a scan that verbatim states infinite amount of dimensions then I don't have to prove them being infinite in size and they'd thus be automatically H1B? But by the same logic, it's stated that "As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context." Yet, people scrutinize this general rule like...all the time so I'm not sure about that.
Well it's a good thing we have the CN text then.
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Yes, from what i remember, since you already have infinite amounts of dimensions, they being significant or not is irrelevant due to the sheer amount of dimension, which is infinite dwarf everything below already
This is for Low 1-A, not High 1-B, but yeah, it need to be strict, or else every trascending/beyond space-time statement gonna be Low 1-A automatically
AlipheeseXIV
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Hm...then can you humor me a bit? I'm going to send you something in dms as to not derail too hard from this thread. Is that okay with you?
Well yeah of course, I understand the scrutinization for L1A is much more important than H1B but I just meant to use it as a very general and somewhat similar case.
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So, do you disagree with the thread?
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The context of the beginning and end scan is about time, not spatial boundaries. If it really was saying that spatial boundaries straight-up don't exist in the Gate (which can't really even be called "beginning" or "end" anyways since there's no way to tell which end of an object or axis is the "beginning" vs the "end"), how would Lee or Ishmael even be able to see anything? If there were no spatial boundaries in that dimension, everything would just blend into one because there would be no boundaries between things. That's absurd. How could you possibly have a map of lower dimensional space depicting separate versions of Lee if there are no spatial boundaries in the Gate whatsoever?
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Lee and Ishmael didn’t sense or see anything.
This statement comes solely from the game itself.
No specific person said this.
AlipheeseXIV
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Simple it's called fiction, likewise it's absurd that a Tower is able to encompass an entire multiverse. However that doesn't make it untrue, also there is already a scan of the Gate being unrestricted by spatial rules.
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If you’re trying to say with your words that the size of the Gate isn’t infinite, I’m sorry to say you’re wrong.
Even the universes that are insignificant compared to the Gate still have infinite size.
There are over 10 other scans confirming this
AlipheeseXIV
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Not necessary since I don't think he's trying to say that, I believe he's specifically referring to the countless dimensions rather than just the Gate itself in line with his previous argument of seemingly agreeing with the Gate's significance but disagreeing with the countless dimensions also being significant.
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Are you seriously trying to tell me that no one in the Gate sees anything? This scan would beg to differ. How can things become two dimensional if spatial boundaries don't exist in the Gate at all? How can stars "resemble toys, spinning around in their hands like music boxes" if spatial boundaries are entirely absent from the Gate? How can Lee see "clear descriptions of all that happens" if there are no spatial boundaries whatsoever in the Gate? How can Lee see "how young and small Earth is compared to everything else" if there are no spatial boundaries whatsoever in the Gate? How can there be spatial GAPS in the Gate if there are no spatial boundaries whatsoever in the Gate? Why is the Gate described as a "peripheral" dimension and a dimensional "border" (both of which are terms that refer to BOUNDARIES) if the Gate lacks spatial boundaries entirely? It's extremely blatant that, contrary to your interpretation, spatial boundaries do in fact exist in the Gate to delineate separate things and even mark off gaps in the Gate and even the boundary of the Gate itself. This is why you don't take these statements out of context: you end up with absurd, unjustified readings of the text.
That's cope. You can't just handwave every single contradiction with "it's fiction."
Additionally, these contradictions are exclusive to your interpretation of the text. Those contradictions only arise if you interpret "The concepts of 'beginning' and 'end' do not exist in this dimension" as meaning that there literally aren't any spatial boundaries in the Gate. If your interpretation leads to many contradictions, and alternative, equally reasonable interpretations such as mine (ie that "beginning" and "end" simply refer to temporal beginnings and ends as is implied by the context) do not lead to any of those contradictions, we should ditch your contradiction-riddled interpretation in favor of other more preferable ones.
Also, "unrestricted by spatial rules" refers to Lee's perspective, not the Gate itself. That's a blatant misreading on your part. It literally says "his view unrestricted by spatial views,"(which, in context, refers to him being able to see everything despite the fact that spatial rules such as the inverse square law normally make this impossible) not "the Gate is unrestricted by spatial rules."
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In the end though, aside from all these contradictions, you still need to give an actual reason as to why "lacks the concepts of 'beginning' and 'end'" must refer to all kinds of "beginning" and "end" including any and all spatial boundaries whatsoever when the immediate context and quotation marks imply that the text is just talking about temporal boundaries. Interpreting this excerpt as talking about all things that can be considered as "beginning" or "end" whatsoever including spatial limitations is just NLF, and this kind of interpretation just begs to be used to justify endless wanks.
AlipheeseXIV
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I didn't "handwave every single contradiction" this is the first time I have done that, and I stated the obvious, you're more focused on it being illogical by real world standpoints rather than viewing it as it is. You have in fact, done this before in another CRT which I already mentioned previously.
Yeah except you're literally just arguing with a brick wall at this point, because I never made the argument that there weren't any spatial boundaries in the Gate. If you read very carefully I just said it's what we have to argue that the Gate is infinite in size outside of it being referred to as a universe. So I don't even understand where you come off with all this yap.
Like the umpteenth time you failed to properly read a scan, the reason Lee's view is unrestricted by spatial rules is due to the properties of the Gate itself, this is very obvious in the scan because it happens right after he enters the Gate.
AlipheeseXIV
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- #152
I don't have to do anything because you just didn't read what I said and conjured this all up out of thin air.
AlipheeseXIV
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How about you just don't do that at all?
That seems to have been the reasoning that Vietthai used. And it was quite important for me to refute it because it's literally the only thing that even vaguely implies that the Gate's countless dimensions are significant. Still, it is good that you disavow this argument. I hope Vietthai sees that it doesn't make any sense either.
"The Gate causes Lee's view to be unrestricted by spatial laws" =/= "The Gate's countless dimensions are infinite and/or significant" The latter simply doesn't logically follow from the former, that makes no logical sense. If this really is your only argument for the Gate's countless extra dimensions being significant, you really don't have any good case for it at all. Even a "possibly" rating is too much.
AlipheeseXIV
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How about no? That is literally pointless, as I have already stated fiction commonly does what fiction does best and that's make shit up. Are we seriously going to deny that? That's like trying to argue against every character or verse that has TD3, law manip, logic manip or physics manipulation. If you continue to just blatantly deny that fiction is fiction you're never going to get past half the things on this wiki.
It doesn't make any sense because it was never an argument in the first place.
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So…? Okay?
Lee was only trying to say how much superiority and complexity the Gate has compared to the Universe and even the Tower.
I can’t understand what you’re trying to get at with these statements.
What does the non-existence of spatial boundaries have to do with these R>F claims you’re making?
I don’t know why you got into this topic, because it doesn’t make sense at all to say that just because the concept of beginning and end doesn’t exist, it has no spatial boundaries.
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I can look at it when I'm off work
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I agreed with 1-B since the scan refers to Countless-D Spatial Dimensions, but there does need to be evidence that those dimensions have superiority to one another.
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26 Dimensions nearly always refer to Bosonic String Theory, which involves dimensions that are not infinite in size and are instead strings of atoms that are bent to go into higher dimensional space. This would never grant you higher dimensional AP.
For the Gate, it containing countless dimensions while being vaguely large in size can warrant a 1-B rating. But really, the points that @Telomera brought up all seem valid to me. Just because Gate is big and can stretch into extra dimensions, doesn't mean that it does so to an infinite degree.
The quotes for transcending time and space don't pass the hyperbolic test in my view, so I'm against a Low 1-A rating.
So for the OP I'm fine with "possibly 1-B". Not really for a direct upgrade.
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But we do have it:
Having "concept" of neither having "beginning nor end" do not "exist in this dimension" should be more than enough since it’s describing the fundamental quality of the dimension itself. I don’t think this should be limited only to time especially when the Gate is portrayed as the very highest point beyond all countless spatial dimensions and even time itself.
As for the mention of “boundaries,” that’s really just a way to frame the idea in terms humans can grasp. It’s common knowledge in cosmology discussions that dimensions—regardless of how infinite they may be—are still treated as having some form of boundary (and Low 1-A dimensions themselves are no exception). On top of that, the Gate’s dimension is explicitly said to be unrestricted by spatial rules which strongly implies its transcendence quality. So, don’t you think it already checks off all the key points without much issue?
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