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Persona Scaling Chain

That was still them fighting as an organized group. The three of them combined can reach that AP rating, but alone? I have doubts. It really isn't different from when their AP goes up due to all fighting together (like in the case of all post Q PTs). I'm just confused by the inconsistency.

If you want to uphold this, the P5 tiering should be adjusted.
 
It's AP, Mattador. Teamwork has no bearing on it since they can still significantly damage Nyx Avatar with their own individual attacks.
 
Then should not all (Solo) Post Q Phantom Thieves scale to the God of Control? That is my point of contention/confusion. I have no problem with your method so long as it is consistant.
 
i always had the impression that velvet room attendant are toying with us when we fight them .

i mean , they could just spam those 9999 megidoloan and call it a day .

even in Q2 if you try fighting them with omnipotent orb , ONE of the twin just rekt your shit instantly for trying such bullshit .

sio i'll always find it iffy to scale characther just because they "won" against velvet attendant when it's very clear we are not on their level at all .
 
Just to clarify on my point about Erebus and the Nyx Avatar, since I realised I didn't elaborate on that as much as I should have.

The End-Game SEES were able to defeat Erebus at the end of the Answer with relative ease. It certainly wasn't a stomp or anything, but it wasn't the most intense battle of their lives.

Whereas in the Nyx Avatar fight, the Nyx Avatar was barely even affected by the entirety of SEES + Makoto Yuki. Technically you win against them from a gameplay standpoint, but as shown in the cutscenes afterwards this is more akin to the Nyx Avatar getting bored with them than anything else.

Whereas SEES without Makoto taken away are about as strong as Erebus all together, SEES with Makoto's help are definitely not comparable to the Nyx Avatar, at least not to the extent that it has been demonstrated.

Also, the events of the Answer did not make them any stronger than before. They explictily state at the beginning of the Answer that they are feeling weaker than they were the last time they entered Mementos, sort of as a way of explaining the need to level up. However, considering their relatively meagre progression in strength in comparison to the base game, they definitely would not be stronger than they were during the Nyx Avatar fight. At best, you could argue that they should be relatively comparable, but that's about it.

Anyway, here's my point in a TL;DR form:

The whole of SEES, excluding Makoto who was the strongest SEES member (and likely weaker as a whole than they were in the Nyx Avatar fight), were able to defeat Erebus with relative ease.

The whole of SEES plus Makoto were barely even able to touch the Nyx Avatar.

As such, the Nyx Avatar should be far higher in AP in Erebus.

As for the Lavenza point, I genuinely don't remember any implication that they lost power when they were split. At best, what I can remember is that their power was split when they were separated, which still means that they'd be just as strong as Lavenza than they would have been as both Caroline and Justine. Even if we were to assume that they lost some power, there's not much indication that it would be large enough for a magnitude change.

As for the third point, it needs to be noted that I was arguing against the individual Phantom Thieves each being stronger than Caroline & Justine. As a collective whole, I'm fully willing to believe that the Phantom Thieves Post-Qliphoth are stronger than the Twins due to having defeated the Holy Grail when it at least appears that the Twins were not capable of it. But as individuals, there is nothing to suggest that they would be comparable.

Admittedly, you do have something more of a point on the 6th one. My thought process was mostly that Igor himself said that the Universe Arcana was a power unlike anything he had ever seen, which implies being a great extent above the major beings that he has seen (such as the Nyx Avatar, who he witnessed in that exact moment). But in hindsight, having him be 2 magnitudes above the Nyx Avatar based on this statement alone seems plausible, but slightly presumptous of me. So I'm fine if the scaling chain didn't include that point.
 
DarkGrath said:
-snip-
Click to expand...
I can accept Erebus being weaker than the combined forces of Post-Game SEES if what you're saying is accurate, but you're either missing or mistaken about a few things:

1. Unlike in the Nyx Avatar fight, all of SEES was fighting Erebus.

2. Nyx Avatar was legitimately defeated. There was no "getting bored" of SEES. It was clear that the Avatar was defeated, what with it falling to the ground and going limp.

Concerning Lavenza, it was already stated that she had lost her extrasensory perception after she was split. We also know that strong enough memory loss is considered a complete reset button for Persona-users, as evidenced by the Q games. It's also a fact that Personas are tied to the soul, and Lavenza's had been literally ripped apart; not just into halves either, since a notable portion of her was also present throughout the game as an incorporeal butterfly, which carefully wrote the challenges given to Ren during the Strength Confidant. With their memories lost, their mind and soul torn into three, and who knows how many abilities sealed away, there's no way that Caroline and Justine were just two halves of Lavenza's full power.

Concerning the Single Phantom Thief vs Caroline/Justine, take this into mind. Lavenza, who I've established by now as superior to the combined power of the Twins, along with the rest of the Velvet Room, all decisively lost to the Holy Grail. Igor was sealed away, Lavenza was literally torn to shreds, Belladonna and Nameless could be enslaved for all we know, and even Margaret would have to have been defeated since she never left the room. Sure, Bella and Nameless are featless, but even so.

What you're telling me is that a weakened fragment of a single one of these defeated combatants can damage the God of Control, a form far stronger than the Holy Grail, more than someone like an empowered Ryuji or Ann can. If anything, instead of just being comparable, the individual Phantom Thieves should be superior to the Twins - comparable instead to Lavenza herself.
 
MattadorProne said:
Then should not all (Solo) Post Q Phantom Thieves scale to the God of Control? That is my point of contention/confusion. I have no problem with your method so long as it is consistant.
Click to expand...
Neither the Phantom Thieves nor SEES scale to the God of Control and Nyx Avatar completely. They can significantly damage, but not tank a full power attack, especially in the case of GoC.
 
There's very little to suggest that the butterfly that Lavenza took the form of has any notable power whatsoever. It is completely featless, and doesn't even directly interact with any of the characters outside of the conversations with Ren. Even though it would technically count as "splitting their power into three different beings", there is nothing to suggest that it was split equally. Given how a magnitude change indicates a notable increase in power, there isn't enough to say that this would be a notable power change. It could literally be as small as a 0.01% increase in power, and even that might be exaggerating considering how powerful Caroline and Justine are.

I don't remember the Q games perfectly, but I can't remember where memory loss was explicitly connected to Persona users losing their powers. At best, I do remember that they can lose their powers through forgetting how to use their personas, and I remember that everyone seemingly get's weaker near the beginning of the Q games, but neither of these are applicable to the Attendants losing their memories. The first example doesn't affect anything since the Twins can still use their Personas, and the second example doesn't affect anything because that's not tied to memory loss. Even so, I'm pretty sure this is just bad memory on my part (funnily enough). Could you clarify what you were referring to in particular here?

Also, none of the Phantom Thieves other than Ren even began to hurt Yaldabaoth. Even after completing the battle, they are all quickly defeated by Yaldabaoth anyway, with Yaldabaoth nearly untouched. They only ever actually harmed the Holy Grail, and even then it took all of them a great deal of effort to do so. No, I'm not claiming that Caroline and Justine could defeat the Holy Grail. But neither could any single Phantom Thief. And when you consider that both the Phantom Thieves and Lavenza were stomped by Yaldabaoth, that doesn't become a good point of reference.
 
In the Q games, the mid-game Investigation Team can go from 7-C to 2-B, before losing their memories once the events are over and go straight back to 7-C as if nothing happened at all.

Also, seriously Grath, we've been over this. The Phantom Thieves literally destroy the thing's arms on several occasions. Capacity for Regenerationn does nothing to diminish feats of AP.

EDIT: Concerning Lavenza. The memories lost by Caroline and Justine resided in the third fragment, as well as the knowledge concerning Persona fusions and the workings of the Velvet Room and Metaverse. The power of a Persona user is directly tied to aspects of the mind and soul. Caroline and Justine together were definitely not as strong as Lavenza at full power.
 
Thank you for clarifying. I forgot about that. Even so, it is ever explicitly stated that them losing their memories was the catalyst for them losing their powers as well? I assumed the two to be independant, that is, both of them were caused by the same event (obviously) but neither of them caused the other. Is there anything that confirms definitively that the memory loss is what made them lose their powers? If not, it'd be a case of correlation over causation.

Also, Yaldabaoth's retractable arms are nowhere near Yaldabaoth in terms of Durability. This should be pretty clear. Also, it takes all of the Phantom Thieves to destroy the arms, not just one of them. Even if Lavenza was not able to defeat Yaldabaoth, there's nothing to suggest that they couldn't destroy the arms. The Phantom Thieves destroyed the arms and still got defeated by Yaldabaoth anyway. So no, this doesn't prove that they have greater AP than Lavenza. We know that the Phantom Thieves can destroy the arms but get easily defeated by Yaldabaoth. We know that the Twins were defeated by Yaldabaoth, with (seemingly) little difficulty in doing so, and there is nothing to suggest one way or the other that the Twins could or could not destroy Yaldabaoth's arms. Neither situation proves that one has an AP advantage over the other.
 
DarkGrath said:
Also, Yaldabaoth's retractable arms are nowhere near Yaldabaoth in terms of Durability.
Click to expand...
This entire argument has been settled and talked about to death in the original Low 2-C upgrade thread. I am NOT talking about this again.

The Velvet Room was defeated by Yaldabaoth, not the Twins. The Twins are a pair of weakened fragments of a fraction of the fighting power that Yaldabaoth decisively dealt with in a form that's far weaker in terms of AP than the one the Phantom Thieves could significantly damage to the point of crippling if it weren't for its Regenerationn. I don't see how any of this could be more clear.
 
Solacis said:
MattadorProne said:
Then should not all (Solo) Post Q Phantom Thieves scale to the God of Control? That is my point of contention/confusion. I have no problem with your method so long as it is consistant.
Click to expand...
Neither the Phantom Thieves nor SEES scale to the God of Control and Nyx Avatar completely. They can significantly damage, but not tank a full power attack, especially in the case of GoC.
Click to expand...
No I don't mean directly scaling. I worded it poorly, I'll just show you.

Is this: (The scaling at the moment)

Ren Amamiya (Satanael) >>>>> God of Control >> (All) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves > Holy Grail >> (Single) Velvet Room Attendant > (Single) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves = Caroline & Justine >> Pre-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baseline 2-B

Should be this:

Ren Amamiya (Satanael) >>>>> God of Control >> (Solo) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thief > Holy Grail >> (Single) Velvet Room Attendant > Caroline & Justine >> (Solo) Pre-Qlipoth Phantom Thief >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baseline 2-B

You have stated that "teamwork has no bearing on it since they can still significantly damage Nyx Avatar with their own individual attacks" Should that not apply here? There is no valid reason to scale the Phantom thieves in this manner and SEES in another. The disignation of (All) Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thieves should be removed. Like I said, all I'm asking for is consistancy.
 
God of Control almost one-shot the Phantom Thieves as soon as it realized it was losing, but even so, the Thieves still endured the attack, albeit injured. The AP of Rays of Control is the same regardless of if it were targeted on one person rather than several. It's just a matter of GoC's durability being notably higher than its AP, in this case, as it could tank several dozens of attacks from the individual Phantom Thieves, who could tank at least a few of said attacks each. I admit to not having completely thought this through when I initially made the chain, but with this current understanding, while taking only AP into account, the scaling would be like so:

God of Control (Rays of Control) >>> God of Control (Standard Attacks) >> Single Post-Qlipoth Phantom Thief (AP/Durability)

If it weren't for healing, the PTs would definitely lose to just GoC's standard attacks, whereas GoC's sheer durability offsets its own lack of healing.

Concerning Nyx Avatar, however, note that it could not one-shot any member of SEES, and if it could, it wasn't shown like it was for GoC. Even assuming that the rest of SEES is each a magnitude lower than Makoto at the time, the fact that he needed their help to beat Nyx Avatar shows that the latter is at least 2 magnitudes above him. Thus, the chain would be like so:

Nyx Avatar >> Makoto Yuki (End-Game) > Single Member of SEES (End-Game)

Then, the Persona 3 scaling would look more like so:

Nyx >>>>> Makoto Yuki (Universe) > Nyx Avatar > Erebus > Makoto Yuki (End-Game) > Single Member of SEES (End-Game) = Makoto Yuki (Late-Game) > P3 Elizabeth

Reminder that these are all only to signify who has more raw AP. I fully believe that Late-Game Makoto and P3 Elizabeth would utterly destroy any one member of End-Game SEES, simply by virtue of their versatility. What I am arguing is that a single member of End-Game SEES should have at least comparable attack potency to Late-Game Makoto, due to fighting all the same enemies as him save for Elizabeth herself.
 
Seems good. I actually still agree about your rational of equating Makoto with his teammates, since AP wise he is no stronger (I was never disagreeing with that, only using it as a point of evidence for the discrepancy in P5). That being said I won't complain if you feel it needs to be altered. I was only wondering about the P5 side of things and why they were rated as a team rathar than individuals AP wise (which you have addressed. Thanks).
 
I honestly still don't understand why everyone is being considered 2-B

I mean, the update was about P1 and P2, there are some P3 / P5 characters that can also scale but not everyone.
 
Honestly I don't even have an idea on where to try and begin to form my opinion on this scaling chain. Nyx automatically scales, so everyone that scales to it is 2-B. Yaldabaoth Solo'ed the Valvet Room and likely scales to Philemon due to him just not doing anything at all to stop Yalda from ******* up with Igor and the Valvet Attendants. Honestly I'd wait The Royal for Persona 5, who knows maybe that new School Counselor is Nyarlathotep after all. I have no idea where Persona 4 fits in and specially where the Spin-Off affects and their characters scales.
 
No one on P3 scales to true Nyx, and the avatar is not feats 2-B.

I very much doubt Igor and his assistants get PS with Philemon and Nyar, there's no proof of that, Igor is just a Philemon's assistant, and Philemon is the UC itself.
 
Not saying that Igor himself scales but the fact that Yalda just messed up with everything and Philemon didn't do nothing makes me believe either Yalda also dealt somehow with Phile or the latter couldn't do much.
 
How about no? Philemon directly states that he will NOT interfere and he resides in Kadath Mandala, the highest dimension of Collective Unconscious. There is no proof that Yaldabaoth affected Kadath Mandala nor statements that he affected Philemon or Nyarlathotep, everything you said is all speculation.
 
I agree, Philemon not intervening being a sign of Yaldy scaling doesn't quite make sense because there's barely any references to P1 and P2 in the newer games, they have completely different writers.
 
Phile interferes quite a lot in EP and IS in spite saying he wouldn't but whatever, if it doesn't matter it doesn't matter.
 
I can't believe there's still confusion, when I'm sure that all of you agreed to the tier revision in the previous CRT.

The 2-B scaling applies to every character in full control of the Collective Unconscious. That is, the Administrators. Thus, anyone that held their own against, or even defeated, said Administrators would also scale to 2-B.
 
Is anything else left to discuss then? Want those revisions applied, 2-B Hitler versus threads are going to be hilarious.
 
We still need a general consensus on the P1-P2 scaling chains. But I can't help with that.

We also need to fit in PQ, but I'm beginning to think that we can treat them separately from the main games, especially since it's even noted that the characters feel weaker at the start of PQ than they were prior to being ripped from their main stories.

Aside from that, I think all the Neo-Persona profiles can be updated. So can Nyarly and Philemon, since they scale directly as Admins of the CU. We would need to gather all the abilities that were missed out in the original profiles, but that's the job of another CRT, or at least a blog post of a knowledgeable member on the WIP revised profiles.
 
Which really isn't appropriate, considering discussions like that is the whole reason this CRT exists in the first place.

At least summarize them here and give your current consensus on this thread, so we can see for ourselves.
 
.... I already spoke about my thoughts for Persona 2 scaling chain and gave my reasonings as well. Did you not see?

I'll just copy paste it from the blog then. If you need the reasoning then you can just backread on what I said and see my explanation.

Philemon = Nyarlathotep > "Ancient humans"/First persona users = Randalph Carter = Maki Sonomura (Statement by Igor) >> P2EP Team/P1 cast in EP/Aged up P1 cast > Faceless God (Nyar Avatar) > Kadath Gods (P2!Izanami, Angra Mainyu, etc.)/Trapezohedron Guardians >>> Kadath demons and residents > Endgame P2IS Team > P2IS Shadow Selves > P2 Joker >>> Other bosses in IS > Endgame P1 cast > *insert Zer00's comment*

And for P1, courtesy of Zer00:

Party> Pandora (Transformed)> Pandora (base but prepared) = God Kandori >>> Kandori (With Nyarlalothep disguised as Persona) >> Pandora (base) >>>>>> Night Queen >>>> Snow Queen >>>> Thanatos = Hypnos = Nemesis >> 2-B

Zer00's comment continues on to mine, so P1-P2 has a very large scaling chain.

In the world of P1-P2, Maki is the strongest Persona user, comparable to the first humans who casually made and altered the CU and its higher realm Kadath Mandala, yet Nyarlathotep easily beat someone on par with Maki.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
So I'll try to make it short: In Tatsuya's Scenario in the Eternal Punishment PSP remake, there's a way to determine this scaling chain, and it's via the Kadath Mandala.

To keep it brief, here's what the translation said about it:

"There may still be a way though: the fragments of Shiori's self are scattered throughout the domain of collective unconscious known as Kadath Mandala, the place where Personae and demons sleep and the uppermost domain of the abyss Philemon and the Crawling Chaos inhabit. Tatsuya's other self, his Persona, also comes from Kadath or, in other words, the place where the image of the gods from legends is born. Persona users of old who understood the power of their dreams and could visit the world of the collective unconscious also called it the domain of visions."

The Kadath Mandala is basically the furthest region of the Collective Unconsciousness, where Philemon and Nyarlathotep truly lie in. Compared to the normal CU, this place is much more dangerous. Igor says that this place was filled with Shadows and Demons thanks to the Faceless God, also known as Nyarly. Why do I assume that the Kadath Mandala is a separate realm that require more power than entering the regular CU? Well remember that way back Innocent Sin, Tatsuya already entered the CU. So this means Kadath is an even further realm.

So what's so important about this place? Well first of all, you cannot just enter this realm, unlike the normal Collective Unconsciousness or the Sea of Souls. Igor explains that while Tatsuya has immense talent as a Persona user, he cannot open a portal to enter Kadath Mandala. Remember, this is already after Innocent Sin, so we know Tatsuya can enter the regular Collective Unconsciousness. But not the Kadath Mandala. So to aid this, Igor calls upon Chandraputra, who is actually the legendary Persona User known as Randolph Carter. He ended up like this after the Faceless God ripped out his mind and soul and placed it on an alien body. Chandraputra is a legendary Persona User who holds the Silver Key that allows passage through the Ultimate Gate to the world of subconscious, Kadath Mandala, and that Silver Key is what helps the P2EP gang to enter Kadath Mandala.

Now, what's interesting here is what Igor said. He said that Tatsuya Suou, being already a massively talented and experienced Persona user since Innocent Sin, couldn't hold a candle to Maki Sonomura. Why? Well with her strong will alone, Igor said that Maki can enter Kadath without using the Silver Key. The only Persona users powerful enough to enter Kadath are Maki and Randolph. Now wait, why are we assuming Maki is stronger than Tatsuya anyways? It's just her mind that allows her to enter Kadath. Well, no not really. You see, Personas are from one's ego and mind, and seeing as how Maki can enter Kadath just by willing it, then this means her will is much stronger than Tatsuya's. And the stronger the will, the stronger the Persona. Here's the line in the translation:

"Nevertheless, how can Tatsuya gain the same power as the Persona users who travelled to the world of the collective unconscious? He already has great talent as a Persona user. If one has enough practise, then through their dreams they'll be able to open the door to the depths of their heart; Sonomura Maki was one of these people."

Maki is the only one in P1-P2 who can do this. And the interesting thing about the Kadath Mandala? It is home to demons and Shadows far more dangerous and powerful than anywhere else. In fact, according to the pastebin translation, "Persona users of old who understood the power of their dreams and could visit the world of the collective unconscious also called it the domain of visions". This is actually the reason why Randolph was mind and soul ripped by Nyarly. "Chandraputra reveals to the party that he is in fact Randolph Carter, who had his emotions stolen by Nyarlathotep in the past because of the work Randolph did in mankind's collective unconsciousness and the Kadath Mandala. Through sheer force of will he has been able to take human form and with the return of his emotions he can become a complete human again." This was taken from the wikia page.

Another reason why the Kadath is so dangerous: Igor warns the Tatsuya that the mental energy of humans is now flowing in the form of shadows and Philemon's power is severely weakened. This was caused by Nyarly himself, to make sure his equal Philemon won't butt in.

So now, we know that the Collective Unconsciousness exists, but no one has ever entered the highest realm where everything is stronger and more dangerous. In fact, the Persona 2 EP team fights gods like Izanami, Angra Mainyu, and eventually The Faceless God in Kadath.

We also know that Philemon, as the creator of Personas, can grant and take away Persona abilities; he did this with Yukino from Persona 1. He is also equal to Nyarlathotep, who can defeat the ancient, more powerful Persona users like Randolph. Therefore, Philemon and Nyar should be stronger than all Persona users. When you defeat Nyarly in the Tatsuya Scenario, he doesn't really die after all. So we can assume that even though Tatsuya fought against those two, he doesn't fully scale to Nyarly and Philemon.

So! With that in mind, we can set a scaling chain for P1 and P2.

Nyarlathotep = Philemon > Maki Sonomura = Ancient Persona users > Gods and Demons inside Kadath > P2 EP team >> Other Persona users (P1, IS, etc.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baseline 2-B

And that's it. To my fellow P1 and P2 experts, I'd like to confirm with you all if there's any errors here.

Links to translations here.
Click to expand...
I would actually put Tatsuya above those gods in Kadath Mandala seeing as he actually defeated them but he should be below Maki, so your scaling is mostly fine.
I'm really happy that you managed to put Maki as the strongest Persona user as I've always had that impression since Persona 1 PSP, it was the first Persona game I played and the focus and foreshadowing on Maki's reality warping is huge not to mention the psychological aspects of her personality also plays an important role and fits in the Persona theme. But sadly all these years she was downplayed to City level due to people's lack of knowledge in the series.

Also, I extremely disagree with some posters here putting Philemon and Nyarlathotep in the same level as other Administrators just solely because of title alone. It's a bad argument which is like putting all Persona users in the same level of power just because of they fall in the same category.

The other Administrators actually has similar concept and purpose as the Trapezohedrons of Kadath Mandala, but we do know that they are still below the likes of Philemon and Nyarlathotep seeing how Tatsuya easily defeated them. Also there is no proof of Yaldabaoth affecting Kadath Mandala, he merely controlled the normal Collective Unconscious while Kadath Mandala is in an even higher plane of existence that is inaccessible even to beings who access the Collective Unconscious and the Sea of Souls.

To make it short people need to stop connecting Persona Q's nonsensical garbage to Persona 1 and 2 just to justify massive power wanking from the modern Persona games as the only thing that can happen are massive contradictions that doesn't make sense. It doesn't help that they have different writers to begin with. That is why Marvel and DC don't get direct scaling these days from different writers.
 
I just realized, now that Joker's 2-B, does that make him the strongest character in smash? There's still some characters that could be some tough competition like Bowser, Mario, Ness maybe and potentially Shulk if his upgrade follows through probably won't happen due to revisions taking forever though
 
>I just realized, now that Joker's 2-B, does that make him the strongest character in smash?

Well technically, Arceus is in Smash...
 
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