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Persona Overhaul: Part 2

KnightOfSunlight

KnightOfSunlight

2,486
872
Hello. This is Part 2 of the Persona revisions made by me and DarkGrath. Part 1 can be found here.

Like before, the issues are split into Minor and Major issues. For the full list of reasons and in-depth arguments, check Grath's blog here, in which he transfered the reasoning from our shared gdoc, while I was kept busy with life and finals. Infinite thanks to him for doing that, and helping this entire project.

In summary of the Blog:

  • Ren Amamiya - Remove "No longer requires SP" from abilities/weaknesses sections, Remove Immortality Negation, Add Limited Invulnerability
  • Phantom Thieves (All) - Remove Mid-Godly regen, Remove resistances to Yaldabaoth's Distortions
  • Makoto Yuki - Add Invulnerability, Add Reactive Evolution
  • Many, many characters: Replace "Invulnerabilities/Immunities" towards abilities with "High Resistance", Remove resistance to Death Manipulation (only for characters without any level of curse/bless resistance)
 
ah yes, my magnum opus

Yeah, obviously, I support this CRT.
 
I'm gonna just give one minor comment as I generally try to seay out of verse wide revision threads. Ren also full heals his entire party upon awakening satanael without any SP consumption.

oh also can I bring up problems with a feat for the Persona 4 cast here or... make it it's own thread. (Curious because this is a more or less verse wide CRT.)
 
You're free to mention the Persona 4 cast thing, we might as well handle it on this thread while we're here. And the Satanael thing is... eh, fair, but there's still not enough evidence to say that he would never use SP for any move ever again.
 
On I know I was just bringing it up since you said it was only for sinful shell.

As for the issue.it's a problem with pre arena P4 stats. Namely why is Adachi's Magatsu Inaba counted as a town level feat. Adachi didn't create Magatsu Inaba the very nature of the midnight channel/tv world did. It's more or less implied by teddie that the tv world becomes what the person who enters sees as reality.

Unlike say the palaces in Persona 5 where the shadow's create the palace themselves with there treasure due to there distorted reality.

And as for controlling Magatsu Inaba... he really doesn't display any feats of actually manipulating it from what I recall. He was simply blocking entrances.
 
Bump. I've asked Dragonmaster to take a look at this thread, haven't yet gotten a response.
 
You know thinking about it... I disagree somewhat with the Hama and Mudo point. Mostly because In persona 4 arena ultimax Ken and Kiromaru's instant kills are Hama and mudo's stronger version. And It always works, no chance based anything. I mean I agree with removing resistance to death manipulation it's easy to see the characters just avoid it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMSH9fz19zs See here for ken and korumaro's instant kill.


But I disagree with it not being a big deal in vs March ups.
 
I disagree with Invulnerabilities being removed. In game when they're nulled or blocked, that's generally the consensus with Persona question. It's never really been contradicted ever, unless Almighty Attacks are included.

I also disagree with Ren losing Type 8 Immortality Neg. They still wished for freedom, and still acknowledged his existence, but alone shouldn't strip him of his immortality.

I believe Ren should get a possibly Mid-Godly Regen.

Neutral on Makoto.
 
Invulnerabilities are not really about whether it is contradicted. For a character to have full invulnerability to an ability, they need to demonstrate resistance to that ability on a level that it'd be outright unreasonable to assume that they could ever be harmed by it in any form. Again, soulless characters being immune to soul manip is a good example, and a pretty typical one too. Being immune to the abilities that Personas/Shadows/whoever can use by no means even comes close to the burden of proof such a statement would require. Again, it's just absolutely amazing resistance, but no proof of it being beyond that from what's shown in the franchise.

I suppose I see your point on the Type 8 Immortality point. Even so, it is quite clearly shown in the cutscenes that quite literally the entire public was rooting for the Phantom Thieves against Yaldabaoth. Given that his immortality was largely based around the humans being subservient to him and giving in to his temptations, the entire public resisting his control would be more than enough to negate it.

Eh... I suppose possibly Mid-Godly regen is a good compromise. I still find it quite dubious, given that it is never stated to be Ren's own innate ability, there are plenty of other sources that could have brought him to the Velvet Room instead, and it's an inconsistent one-time feat that borders on PIS. But if other people agree with it, I suppose "Possibly Mid-Godly regen" is a good compromise.
 
I remember Solacis said the PTs had Low 2-C resistance to elemental resistances iirc, regardless of key. I don't remember if it was elemental or not though, do not quote me. I still believe it's invulnerability, it's only been bypassed by things designed to do so. But I guess I can settle for high resistance, I just prefer invulnerability.

I'm aware, but still, they still wished for freedom, the very same thing Yaldabaoth seeks to control. How about a possibly?

I can agree with possibly.
 
Well, even Low 2-C levels of resistance aren't really "invulnerabilities". So it should still just be resistance.

Eh, again, I can settle for a Possibly on that one too.
 
Well, for resistances, that's not really how it works. The actual "Invulnerability" ability does work like that (like, a character can have Invulnerability that works up to a Low 2-C level). But invulnerability/immunity to a specific ability is more about not being able to get affected by the ability in any capacity.
 
I have no idea how their invulnerability ability works, since it's not specified on the profile and I don't know the character itself.
 
Gotcha. Note that the character only has the "Invulnerability" ability, and not immunity to any abilities, so it's not the same as resistances.
 
Um sorry if I'm interrupting, but uh Dark mind giving your opinion on my comment about hama and mudo? If it's not to much of a bother.
 
Ah, sorry mate, I skipped over that one. :p

Unfortunately, I haven't actually played Arena Ultimax, so I can't really comment on that reply. KoS has though, so feel free to ask him about it.
 
Of what using instant kills without chance? I mean to be fair who else uses hama and mudo in arena? (There could be others and I just missed them,) Like I said I'm not arguing to keep Death resistance for everyone. Just Hama and mudo being alright as justifications for match ups.
 
Bump. I've contacted Dragonmaster a couple of times, but he hasn't responded. I can only assume he's got stuff to do over the holidays, which is perfectly understandable. Is there anyone else who could be contacted for this?
 
I was always doubtful about "Mid-Godly regen" and the whole Immortality negation thing. So I agree with this.

Just one thing though. Was it directly stated that the PT were erased from existence and resisted? I forgot the context, but I think they survived the Existence erasure and ended up in the Velvet Room? So I dunno if the resistance to Existence erasure should stay as a "possibly". Would like more details in this part.
 
They were stated to be erased from existence, that part is for certain. The problem I have is that there is 0 indication at all that they survived by their own power. They spawned back in the Velvet Room after being erased, and by the looks of things either Yaldabaoth, The Twins, or even the Velvet Room itself might have brought them there. I think it's just too presumptuous without further statements to assume that it was Joker's innate ability.

There's also the fact that it is pretty inconsistent. Not necessarily an outlier, mind you, since it's a pretty unique circumstance. But it is pretty inconsistent since there isn't any indication given whatsoever that he should be capable of regenerating from anything at the magnitude of EE on his own.

Though again, I'm willing to settle for "Possibly" on these things since it's not explicitly stated it was done by anyone else either. So there's still a chance that it was his innate ability, though it's still dubious and comparatively unlikely.
 
Hmmm, possibly is weird then. How will we take it with debates in the threads then?

Like, say Joker's opponent has existence erasure as their wincon. But he has resistance to it; only possibly. So how will that be determined?
 
If a statistic is "possibly" or "likely", then it's usually decided in the OP if the statistic is allowed. If it's not specified, then I think SBA doesn't allow the ability to be used.
 
Yeah, I'm fine with that.

Again though, none of this can be implemented without further staff support. Admins would be preferred, I think a Content Mod might be able to help, but I'm definitely not in a position to validate the changes on my own. Is there anyone other than Dragonmaster who could be contacted?
 
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