Persona - Empowerment

[DarkGrath]

Thank you for responding! Here is the summary of all the major information.

In the final battle against Nyx, Empowerment of Durability does not explain how he survived Nyx's attacks for several reasons.

1: Due to this not having any reason for contradicting the law of action and reaction, his durability should scale to his AP, which we know is not possible since that would mean Makoto is far above Nyx.

2: Makoto get's the Durability boost well before actually recieving the motivation and willpower from his teammates.

So, looking through the the game in more detail (through the PCSX2 emulator), I discovered that the reason Makoto is able to survive Nyx's attacks is because of a passive skill called Infinite Endure. This skill, like the name suggests, gives Makoto the effect of Endure (so, surviving with 1 HP) infinitely, rather than once. After some discussion, it was agreed that this should be considered Invulnerability. It activates when he's on the brink of death or beyond, and it prevents him from being killed by any conventional means.

Reactive Evolution was also brought up, due to him being able to nullify Death after being hit twice with it, so essentially, he'd have the ability to gain resistances to attacks he's dealt with before. Pretty clear cut, compared to the last point.

We've also agreed that the slight tweaks in conditions when this was replicated in Persona 4 would mean that Narukami would get a High Resistance to Izanami's attack (though we haven't quite agreed what it would be a resistance to).

So, all of the suggested changes:

Makoto Yuki:

- Invulnerability (Infinite Endure prevents him from dying by conventional means)

- Reactive Evolution (Nullifes attacks he's been hit with after a few attempts)

Yu Narukami:

- High Resistance to *insert ability here* (Drastically reduced the effect of Izanami's attacks)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So what do we mean by "Conventional means" per se?

 

[DarkGrath]

Well... it's a vague way of putting it, I'll admit. "Conventional Means" was meant to refer to:

1: Regular Persona abilities/attacks

2: Pure AP

Nyx has enough AP to one-shot Makoto Yuki several times over, yet it was not enough to negate Infinite Endure. So within reason (and obviously barring dimensionality differences) AP alone should not be able to bypass it. It also works just like the regular Endure ability, just applied an infinite amount of times instead of one, so we know it should work on any ability used by Personas or Shadows.

There are plenty of things that should work, though, considering how Invulnerability is always limited. More unique, powerful abilities like Existence Erasure or really good Conceptual Manipulation would almost certainly bypass it.

That's basically the distinction I was trying to make when I referred to it as "Conventional Means".

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am not exactly sold on this idea to be blunt as this easily leads into NLF territory. It should only work up to the AP it has shown and nothing higher. We should not assume someone above even Nyx, can't kill Makoto. Honestly, not a big fan of this power as personally I find it just a game mechanic, but I am not in the mood to go through text wall after text wall about why it isn't. I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that it is limited to it's best feats.

 

[DarkGrath]

Fair enough. Again, I only said it should work "within reason". I mostly put that point up to say that AP doesn't seem to be the main factor in whether it is bypassed. Still, does everything else seem reasonable to you?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

By "nulled death", what exactly do you mean?

 

[DarkGrath]

The attack that Nyx uses is called Death. It's an incredibly powerful Almighty Attack, to clarify, not Death Manipulation. Makoto got hit by it several times, and then got the ability to nullify it, hence why I suggested Reactive Evolution.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Hmm. I guess that seems fine.

 

[DarkGrath]

Anything else worth a mention?

 

[MattadorProne]

@Dragonmasterxyz

1/ I'm still not convinced that Makoto's durability itself was increased. He has only one feat, vs one attack, to support this and therefore it should not apply to literally every other attack on the wiki. That is about the definition of NLF imo. Whatever we classify Death as, he should resist or be immune to that. I don't know why Death is being treated as too holy to classify by attack type. (Note this is already in place; Makoto is immune to energy projectiles)

2/ Infinite endure is a game mechanic. It is not supported by lore and digging through game code to find it is about as telling as this gets. How the developers achieve the scene through coding is a game mechanic. Many games have parts where dying is simply impossible for plot reasons.

3/ No one has addressed why this instance of last chance hit point is more special that other instances in fiction on the wiki (Hitmonlee for example). As far as I've seen no other verse is touting invincibility due to convieniant plot survival (on their vs wiki pages, obviously).

 

[DarkGrath]

1: There is a very clear distinction between resisting/nullifying an attack and surviving it. Makoto only managed to nullify it after being hit with it several times, but the first few times it was strong enough to one-shot him literally ten times over and yet he still survived. The game makes a clear distinction between outright nullifying an attack and being able to survive it, and this is clearly a case of surviving it where he had to survive it without any resistance to it. This really doesn't need to keep being brought up, it's a clear cut point.

And no, I'm not treating Death like it's "too holy" to classify. It's quite obviously an Almighty attack. What's derived from there is up to you, but the point is that there's a clear distinction made between nullifying and surviving it. He didn't nullify it, he survived it when he shouldn't have been able to, so that's what's being discussed here.

I'm not saying it would "apply to every other ability on the wiki" either. I shouldn't have to address the fact that is a strawman if you look at any of my previous comments.

2: Unless we consider all Persona abilities to be game mechanics, then Infinite Endure is not a game mechanic. The only reason the ability is not visible is because it is a passive skill, so just like all passive skills it doesn't show up on the skill menu. It works exactly like the Endure skill, as we see quite clearly demonstrated in game. And it's an ability used by Makoto's ultimate Persona, just like things like Sinful Shell and the Great Seal. There isn't any reason to discredit it, the only reason "searching through the game's code" is required is because it's not visible on the menu (which I already explained) and it's not usable in regular gameplay (just like the Great Seal, or Sinful Shell. And really, take a guess why it wouldn't be available).

There's nothing here that invalidates Infinite Endure as being a genuine ability used by Makoto. It's rare for something to be considered a game mechanic unless it explicitly contradicts the lore, and there's no contradiction here.

3: We're not touting "Invincibility". Invincibility would mean that they are literally unkillable, which is not even remotely what is being suggested here. "Invulnerability" only works up to an extent, and what we're trying to figure out is the extent to which it works. There is a difference between "convenient plot survival" and "this character got a massive upgrade in power that allowed them to survive this".

 

[MattadorProne]

1/ Its not nullification I'm arguing for. We can justify it as high resistance alongside reactive evolution (he developed a resistance through the fight; possibly to immunity the highest form of resistance). An increasing resistance over time is one of the applications listed on the reactive evolution page. I don't understand this fixation on Invulnerability.

The page for invulnerability requires the nature and specifics to be listed (what it is proven to stop and how), which we simply dont have here, or at least was never discussed. Otherwise it is a NLF as I've mentioned as does the page. They are also commonly lore based, and the characters with them typically carry a weakness (allowing the invulnerability to be verified; Bob can't be hurt ever unless you hit his knees for example. Hitting his knees with the same attacks as before, and causing damage, verifies his invulnerability). There is no verification method here.

It also only applies in certian and proven cases anyways, which are required to be listed, so at best it would be invunerability to energy projectiles (what Death is currently listed as, being the only feat for this), which I fail to see as being vastly different from the current immunity to them. Please double check the page for Invulnerability. I've stated this before but the burden of proof lies on the preson proving, not disproving, and as of now there is very little.

2/ Its a game mechanic because HP is a game mechanic. I know you have not agreed on this point, but HP is the first thing listed under this definition. That and the inconsistencies with other verses as I previously mentioned.

Anyways @Grath, could we wait on DragonMasters input, if they are willing. We are experts at never reaching a conclusion with one another

 

[DarkGrath]

Again, there was no sign of Makoto resisting it at all in the first place until he outright nullifies it. The first hit deals 9999 damage, and sends him to 1 HP. The second hit still deals exactly the same amount of damage, and he survives while at 1 HP. The potency of the attack was not reduced in any way, so it's not simply him gaining the resistance over time. And even if it was purely a resistance, and his resistance got better due to Reactive Evolution, then he still would have been one-shotted ten times over by the first hit. There isn't any indication that he resisted the attack in any way up until the point that he nullifies it, and so he had to survive an attack that would normally one-shot him through some other means. That's why Invulnerability is being suggested, because it's an explanation that fits the criteria.

And again, I'm not saying that this is some godly form of Invulnerability here. It should only work against things that would not bypass a regular Endure, which gives us a lot of demonstrations of how Endure works. While the limits aren't very clearly specified, it's definitely not limitless, and I'm certainly not claiming it is.

Also, again, the reason HP can be used here at all is because of the same reasons why we don't consider SP to be purely game mechanics. It's used as an accurate way of determining quantifiable states that directly affect the characters, and so we can use them as far as it measures these states. If we just consider HP a game mechanic, then so would SP, and that would require a lot of revisions.

Annnnnd now I read the bottom segment. Welp... crap. I don't feel like getting rid of all that I wrote, but you make a good point. We never seem to agree on anything. XD

Let's just wait for Dragonmaster's input from here.

 

[MattadorProne]

Lol sounds good

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump?

 

[DarkGrath]