Persona 5 Scaling to other games

[Sumguyonvswiki2]

I like how the scaling for the persona characters are but i highly doubt that it's accurate to make claims such as Izanami should be stronger than the end game phantom thieves and stuff like that wbich how do you prove that when the phantom thieves never fought izanami but they did fight yaldabaoth who could reality warp on a universal+ level. You also put for izanami that she is stronger than the velvet room attendants who can stomp people that can harm the holy grail; my problem is comparing characters who weren't even in the same game and situations and tryna make it sound accurate. I don't believe that velvet room attendants would stomp the phantom thieves especially right after they left the room to fignt the angels than yaldy. Plus joker waa able to survive a 2v1 from caroline and justine without any help plus it waa before he awakened to his full power, also don't sleep on lavenza just because she one pf tbe youngest attendants caroline and Justine obviously prove to be quite formidable even im their unfused forms

 

[Jesterofgames]

Alright to explain.


door-kun canonically fought and beat Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is around equal to or stronger then Caroline and Justine.

margret (who Yu fought) is canonically stronger then Elizabeth.


hence the scaling chain.


Velvet attendents > Pre World arcana Fools.

final bosses > Velvet attendents.

And non fools can fight the final bosses.


And >Joker survived a 2 on 1.

barely because Caroline and Justine didn't want to kill him.

Plus post leaving the velvet room theives are considered stronger then velvet attendents.

 

[Sumguyonvswiki2]

Alright to explain.


door-kun canonically fought and beat Elizabeth.

Elizabeth is around equal to or stronger then Caroline and Justine.

margret (who Yu fought) is canonically stronger then Elizabeth.


hence the scaling chain.


Velvet attendents > Pre World arcana Fools.

final bosses > Velvet attendents.

And non fools can fight the final bosses.


And >Joker survived a 2 on 1.

barely because Caroline and Justine didn't want to kill him.

Plus post leaving the velvet room theives are considered stronger then velvet attendents.

Thats about right but i expect to see joker on some low multiverse level after his royal feats

 

[Xantospoc]

Final Bosses > Velvet attendents? WHAT?

If anything, it's pretty clear Velvet attendants stomp final bosses

 

[Jesterofgames]

Nope.

Minato/Makoto fights and beats Elizabeth canonically.

Nyx's avatar proceeds to fight on even terms with Minato after that.

 

[Xantospoc]

Nyx is the only exception, but she is above Nyarlathotep and Philemon in canon soooooo

 

[Jesterofgames]

The above nyar and Phile has been debated but... No nyx is not the only exception. That's bullcrap Yaldaboth blatantly curb stomped Lavenza tore her being into two separate other entities and sealed her memories. Yaldaboth is so blatantly above velvet attendants it's not funny.

And Reread what I said I said NYX'S AVATAR the person who fought SEES and Minato/Makoto. Ie Ryoji not Nyx herself.

Nyx's avatar (ryoji) is above Pre Wild card Elizabeth Erebus is around Ryoji's level, The investigation team can fight sees who can kill erebus. Thus the scaling chain.

 

[Xantospoc]

Yaldabaoth is not above them. He simply sealed Igor (who while stronger is not a fighter) then likely tricked them.

If anything, Yalbadaoth shows he is vastly below them, given Ren pre Saitan Hel could give fight to Yal, while he was completely powerless

Nyx Avatar is also DEFINITIVELY not on the same level as Elizabeth.

 

[Jesterofgames]

That is not at all what is told to us, Lavenza outright said he tore her into caroline and justine. "I was torn in two by a malevolent will, and took the form of those two twins." I doubt he tricked them in order to do that. Nothing suggests he did. And before you bring up Lavenza's line about Yaldy no longer lying to her and her sight has been restored. It's clear from context she's talking about him faking being igor and tricking her as the twins.

"If anything Yaldaboth shows he is vastly below them? Given ren pre Satanael could give a fight to yal while je was completely powerless."

Never happened he got his powers back and then fought Yaldaboth. Ren also fights Caroline and Justine canonically and withstands hits from them even if they lost the will to fight before they could kill him. Meanwhile when yaldaboth goes all out he puts Ren and the others on deaths door in a single all out Rays of control. (Compare he takes forever to charge it when fighting but when he gets serious he fires it off without warning.)

"Nyx avatar is also definitvely not on the same level as Elizabeth.@

Based on what? Because I can tell you there's more evidence to suggest Ryoji is then isn't.

Ie, Minato canonically fights Elizabeth alone and wins. But it takes all SEES to fight Ryoji.

Post Wild card Elizabeth is above Erebus and ryoji to a hilarous degree. But even Pre Wild card elizabeth are comparable to the twins.

 

[Xantospoc]

Nothing shows it was raw power to do so. And given how literally all of Yalbadaoth does is to manipulate others, I can't see how it's not the case

"Withstands hits", a good words to say he was gettin stomped. Also, he was literally going slowly unleashing every attack against that. Also the twins werre hesitating a lot throughout the fight. Nothing scales Erebus to Ryoiji either. it's pretty clear he was much weaker. Elizabeth one shot him with Thanatos. Thanatos is a part of Nyx Avatar.

And that doesn't make them scale one above the other.

Pre Wild Card Elizabeth iss VASTLY SUPERIOR to the twins. Just look at the Perrsona they use in battle (freaking Jack Frost) VS all the high level Personas Elizabeth and Margareth use.

 

[Jesterofgames]

The way lavenza describes it makes it easier to say it was with raw power then with trickery.

Nah he was withstanding hits. If he was getting stomped he'd be brought down to 1 hp by one attack. The twins where also still hitting Joker with the strongest elementals skills in the game.

Meanwhile one rays of control knocked Joker flat on his butt.

Also Sees fought both ryoji and Erebus and had trouble with both. Makes it pretty clear they scale.

"Elizabeth one shots him with thanatos." After unlocking the ability to be a wild card and a 2 year time skip between P3 the answer and Arena when that happened. And thanatos the persona is an impression of Ryoji from the time he spent in Minato's head. Not the actual Thanatos.

How everything is described from what I know it paints all the velvet siblings in roughly equal power with Margaret only being slightly stronger then Elizabeth well post wild card elizabeth.

 

[Solacis]

@Xantospoc

It was raw power. Igor was stated to have created Morgana from the last shreds of his power as a last ditch effort. If he was taken by surprise, then he wouldn't have managed even that much. Lavenza was tor in two, not simply split. And if you went with the bad ending by agreeing to Yaldy's deal, Lavenza didn't fight back at all, implying she couldn't have hoped to defeat him if she tried. The only way she could know this is by having lost to him before.

Elizabeth in Arena is stronger than Elizabeth in Persona 3. She was canonically defeated by Makoto during the late-game events of Persona 3. Even assuming he doesn't get any stronger by the end-game, the fact that he needed SEES to take on Nyx Avatar is proof that Nyx Avatar is superior to Elizabeth in Persona 3. Regarding Erebus, Aigis in The Answer literally gains Makoto's abilities, including his Personas. She then grew stronger over the course of the extended story. The fact that she needed SEES to combat Erebus is another indicator that Erebus is at least comparable to Nyx Avatar, if not superior.

All of the Velvet Room siblings, barring Margaret who's never lost, Caroline & Justine who are explicitly weaker than Lavenza, and Elizabeth in Persona 4 Arena, are approximately at the same level of strength. The Personas they use are of no relevance, because in case you forgot, Elizabeth's Pixie is what casts her "Super" Megidolaon in Persona 3.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Thank you solacis for explaining what I've been trying too far better then me.

Still sucks Margaret's fight isn't canon.