Ren Amamiya/Persona downgrades?

[Pizzabox492]

People on reddit downplay Joker because:

1. He lost to normal cops but people say it was part of Joker's plan but people say why would Akechi send that many cops to him in the first place and they argue that Akechi thought that many cops were enough for Joker

2. It's that everyone sees a normal gun as a threat hence why its able to shoot bullets as Morgana explained and people downgrade persona because even late game enemies see a normal gun as a threat

3. People say characters barely damage the environment

EDIT:

4. They said Joker doesn't have acausality because Lavenza/ the butterfly helped him out in the dream before 3rd semester. The dream where Joker was in a prison uniform and where he escapes the school. The butterfly leads him out of the school and they say this is a metaphor of Lavenza helping Joker escape Maruki's reality

5. Joker didn't merge him or the phantom thieves back into existence they just respawned in the velvet room and Joker doesn't actually resist EE

Are these actual downgrades for Persona/Joker or have these been addressed yet?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

no, these are silly and would result in below 9-C persona which is utterly comical

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You do realize it's extremely consistent that SMT/Persona characters use magic bullets strong enough to hurt characters like YHVH and Lucifer on a regular basis. They're not regular bullets but magic ones. And even various fodder demons are essentially immune to every firearm known to man.

 

[Pizzabox492]

You do realize it's extremely consistent that SMT/Persona characters use magic bullets strong enough to hurt characters like YHVH and Lucifer on a regular basis. They're not regular bullets but magic ones. And even various fodder demons are essentially immune to every firearm known to man.

No they say the shadows are not powerful because they see a normal gun as a threat, they say if they were strong enough a normal looking gun wouldn't be a threat and would just be a minor inconvenience to them

" And even various fodder demons are essentially immune to every firearm known to man." when does this happen

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I been reading a lot of SMT profiles that mention them and Ultima's blog. Even fodder demons like Aeros or Ethys; the former can create tornados and traverse the expense and the latter shakes the Earth or something like that.

 

[Pizzabox492]

made some additions

 

[Pizzabox492]

I been reading a lot of SMT profiles that mention them and Ultima's blog. Even fodder demons like Aeros or Ethys; the former can create tornados and traverse the expense and the latter shakes the Earth or something like that.

but.... are they actually Aeros or Ethys?

Like how we see Thor or Archangel in Persona are they actually Thor or Archangel? or do we actually fight Azazoth?

People on reddit say they aren't the actual characters

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Maybe most of those people on Reddit are trolls or haven't done their homework. We have had for too many lengthy discussions of the gods and demons appearing in Persona being the same as the ones from SMT.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

1. He lost to normal cops but people say it was part of Joker's plan but people say why would Akechi send that many cops to him in the first place and they argue that Akechi thought that many cops were enough for Joker

Firstly, this argument is already rendered moot by Joker's knowledge of the betrayal beforehand and his intentional willingness to get arrested for a greater plan. Secondly, if Joker were to kill or injure the police officers in the palace, that would attract even more negative attention to the Phantom Thieves are serve only to worsen his legal situation. He never "lost" to the cops when he never fought them in the first place.

2. It's that everyone sees a normal gun as a threat hence why its able to shoot bullets as Morgana explained and people downgrade persona because even late game enemies see a normal gun as a threat

The properties of the Metaverse function off of the collective belies of the entirety of humanity, not just the Observation of a certain few enemies. Morgana explains that he is able to transform into a van because "'cats turning into buses' is an extremely widespread cognition among the general public". In the same vain, guns are obviously viewed as dangerous by humanity as a whole, and are thus given greater strength in the Metaverse.

3. People say characters barely damage the environment

Fiction violates the law of conservation of mass all the time. Plus, there wouldn't be much of a plot if the Phantom Thieves could simply do away with a palace by striking at the walls.

4. They said Joker doesn't have acausality because Lavenza/ the butterfly helped him out in the dream before 3rd semester. The dream where Joker was in a prison uniform and where he escapes the school. The butterfly leads him out of the school and they say this is a metaphor of Lavenza helping Joker escape Maruki's reality

I don't understand this argument. Joker has acausality from his Cognitive Physiology, and his passive fate manipulation isn't reliant on such evidence.

5. Joker didn't merge him or the phantom thieves back into existence they just respawned in the velvet room and Joker doesn't actually resist EE

Lavenza quite explicitly states that the Phantom Thieves reclaimed their existence. That's not the only piece of evidence to suggest Joker has High-Godly either. He also resists EE by sheer virtue of being able to survive against the -Megi line of spells.

" And even various fodder demons are essentially immune to every firearm known to man." when does this happen

From the Cognitive Physiology page, which I have linked for you multiple times in other threads.

• Invulnerability: Demons cannot be harmed by conventional weaponry and usually can only be harmed by something with a similar wavelength matching their own[9][8], a consistent theme that is followed by Shadows, beings that are constructed from a material that operates on alien laws of physics[18], granting immunity to anything that abides by it[19]. Mirages serve as no objection to the rule[17].

but.... are they actually Aeros or Ethys?

Yes, Personas=Demons.

People on reddit say they aren't the actual characters

Do they actually have any evidence to support their claims?

 

[Hasty12345]

I was under the impression things in persona worked off of “belief”, if Joker thinks he can kill a demon with a gun then he can make it happen or something along those lines? I could have sworn that’s explained very early on in P5?

 

[Potemkat]

I was under the impression things in persona worked off of “belief”, if Joker thinks he can kill a demon with a gun then he can make it happen or something along those lines? I could have sworn that’s explained very early on in P5?

It's the opposite. The shadows think Joker has a loaded gun which isn't fake, so his gun is always loaded and do damage.

 

[Hasty12345]

It's the opposite. The shadows think Joker has a loaded gun which isn't fake, so his gun is always loaded and do damage.

That’s right, similar-ish principle though right? They only take damage because they think Joker can hurt them?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

It's all based around Cognition. "I think, therefore, it is", essentially. With that said, with how the verse works, I would assume we would assume that the most Viable conditions for Ren would be in place, aka, in the Metaverse, wherein his foe probably wouldn't think that the gun is just empty/not a threat. And even besides that, as Luke mentioned, it tends to be more reliant on general cognition rather than specific cognition, so if most human's would think that, it doesn't matter if you do or don't..

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean being in the Metaverse inherently makes folks stronger

So like, the cops were Metaverse Amped

Also this is a terrible argument because literally 10 minutes before this happened, Joker fought a giant Leviathan Sae who can fire off nukes… Like if your logic is “Joker’s a normal human”, that’s dumb. If anything, the real guns the cops wield in the Metaverse are more dangerous than the Shadow Killing Guns the Phantom Thieves have, because the cops are wielding real guns that would be amped by cognition

 

[Uuber1]

I mean being in the Metaverse inherently makes folks stronger

So like, the cops were Metaverse Amped

It doesn't?

Also this is a terrible argument because literally 10 minutes before this happened, Joker fought a giant Leviathan Sae who can fire off nukes…

She doesn't fire off nukes?

Like if your logic is “Joker’s a normal human”, that’s dumb. If anything, the real guns the cops wield in the Metaverse are more dangerous than the Shadow Killing Guns the Phantom Thieves have, because the cops are wielding real guns that would be amped by cognition

They are still regular humans

 

[Uuber1]

Secondly, if Joker were to kill or injure the police officers in the palace, that would attract even more negative attention to the Phantom Thieves are serve only to worsen his legal situation.

Is there a source on this or does the game at least acknowledge that would've happened if Joker fought back?

 

[Livinmeme]

You do realize it's extremely consistent that SMT/Persona characters use magic bullets strong enough to hurt characters like YHVH and Lucifer on a regular basis. They're not regular bullets but magic ones. And even various fodder demons are essentially immune to every firearm known to man.

The hell are you talking about? Generic bullets from SMT1 and IF...Were alredy able to kill demons, ******* hell. The bullets from some random old dude are theorically able to kil Thor (1-C bullet BTW)

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Guys this is a necro

 

[Uuber1]

The hell are you talking about? Generic bullets from SMT1 and IF...Were alredy able to kill demons, ******* hell. The bullets from some random old dude are theorically able to kil Thor (1-C bullet BTW)

Yeah but Takaya's bullet can be blocked by a pocket watch during FEMC's route.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah but Takaya's bullet can be blocked by a pocket watch during FEMC's route.

1-A Pocket watch, 1-A nuclear bomb, 1-A Satelite, 1 ******* A thief with knife (stronger than the Great will BTW)

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

If you have issue's with Persona Scaling, please make your own thread instead of commenting on a necro.