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Persona 1 and 2 tier revision

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Zer00Negativo

Zer00Negativo

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This serves to update the God Tier of verse and characters from P1 and P2 to 2-B or 2-A.

starting with Persona 2 where Philemon and Nyarlathotep are the embodiments of the Collective Unconscious, the origin and source of power from the human soul. The soul being said as being able to change entire realities and the will power being tha same power that created the universe, and this is not flowery language since right after philemon said that they reseted the timeline.

http://imgur.com/a/xPvNYid

http://imgur.com/a/OrYnwz9

There is an example of this also in Persona 1 where Maki's consciousness created an entirely new reality, at first the characters think that they just went back in time but realize that everything is different, so they find out that they were not in the past but in literally an alternate universe, and according to Nanjo there are countless other universes as well as "Theory of Many Worlds".

http://imgur.com/a/70huYxq

In the final stretch of the game, Kandori had achieved divine status and gained power over all dimensions (universes in context), but after defeat we found that even kandori was just a Nyalathotep puppet and was being manipulated.

http://imgur.com/a/fhcZeJ5

At the end of the game we met Pandora who according to her would open the "pandora's box" and release all the evils of the world and then return all existence to nothingness.

http://imgur.com/a/eM4K8fc
 
The nature of human souls is explained to have the potential to create new realities. It is only because the P2 cast at that point in time possessed the level of inner strength that they did that it would work at all.

"You, who possess strong wills, have a unique energy that can reshape reality."

It isn't to say that just any human soul can reshape reality, but only those with strong enough wills. Maki, as well as the P2 cast, were only able to do so because of their powerful wills. This fits in with the mechanics of Cognition that came up later in P5, just on a larger scale. At most, this would mean that the Collective Unconscious would be theoretically capable of creating an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums, but that's only theoretically.

Based on what we know for sure, we have 3 confirmed 4D space-times:

  1. Pre-Timeline Reset (P1 to P2:IS)
  2. Maki's Alternate Timeline
  3. Post-Timeline Reset (P2:EP to P5 and onwards)
If there are references to other timelines in P1, then it'd be a higher-end of 2-C, but Nanjo's mention of "countless similar worlds" doesn't count, because he doesn't actually know if they exist or not, only that it's possible they do, and even then, he doesn't know how many.

That said, if we do consider the Collective Unconscious to have enough energy to support the creation of any and all potential universes humanity can create, it would be considered 2-B, possibly even 2-A.

However, whether or not the Administrators can use that potential energy is up for serious debate.

On another note...

Speaking of the Administrators, based on the quotes above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are not literally the Collective Unconscious. They are, in Philemon's words, "incarnations". Incarnations are defined as embodiments of something. It only implies Abstract Existence (Type 2) dependent on the Collective Unconscious. It gives them control over it, and allows them to survive as long as it exists, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're literally the same thing.

Semantics, but it might become important to keep this in mind.
 
So a TL:DR, you agree with the upgrade, just not to a ultra high level? I think this is fine, we can leave the discussion lf werther or not the administrators can use all the energy of the Collective Unconscious to another time, since that is a problem of it's own

But, i would like to add, I don't think it would even make sense for the Collective Unconscious to not support the creation of all those umiverses, otherwise it would just collapse itself, plus it was said that they are the origin and source of power of it, even if the soul has just the potential to change reality, and werther or not it can do that is based on the person, they most likely would be able to support at least a lot of people with the potential unlocked
 
I agree with 2-C, though I don't personally like it.

I don't agree with 2-A, but I can see it happening.

I think 2-B is the most likely if we consider the Collective Unconscious as already possessing the energy required to support the unlikely occurrence of every single human in the past, present and future each creating a new universe, possibly more.
 
are ignoring the fact that Nanjo mentions that there are countless universes (2-B or 2-A according to the wiki), and Kandori had powers over them and Pandora to destroy.
 
Nanjo was making a guess. He had no way of knowing whether the situation actually fit into the theory he was relating it to.

Now if someone like Philemon or Nyarly said it, or even Igor, then it would be legitimate. As it is, it can easily be hyperbole.
 
Thats assuming said theory actually applied to the situation at hand. From Nanjo's perspective, it's entirely guesswork. He has no idea whether or not he's correct.
 
But that fits in with the situation, think about it, every person in the collective Inconscious has the potential to create a universe (I would say there are 5 billion people in the world at that time) and in this universe there will be people who can also generate more universe and these universes here will also be a person and so infinitely
 
This is really interesting! How come I didn't take notice of this even as a big Persona 1 fan?

Anyways, the question now is whether or not the modern Persona protagonists scale to 2-C/2-B/2-A? Probably not, but this is still pretty interesting. Now I want P2 and P1 to appear in newer Persona crossovers so they all scale...

Anyways, I'm personally in agreement with 2-B. All the souls of humanity that had ever lived would be a pretty large number, and countless statement makes it even further into the tier. Although I suppose 2-A is a possibility as well.
 
Zer00Negativo said:
But that fits in with the situation, think about it, every person in the collective Inconscious has the potential to create a universe (I would say there are 5 billion people in the world at that time) and in this universe there will be people who can also generate more universe and these universes here will also be a person and so infinitely
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if the assumption fits the situation or not. It's still an assumption. The statement is illegitimate, and it's also the only one supporting infinite worlds that's been pointed out so far.

Your logic also doesn't make sense. Even considering the nigh-impossible scenario of every human being across time suddenly creating universes, it still doesn't make it infinite. Humans came into existence at a certain point in time and will inevitably die out at a much later point in time. There's a finite limit to how many universes can be created in that timeframe, even if humans spent their entire existences doing nothing but creating new universes, which is impossible on its own.

At best, we'd have very powerful 2-B god-tiers. There is zero solid evidence to support 2-A.

And even if we do agree in regards to the upgrade concerning the cosmology of the verse, we still have to wonder whether the administrators can even tap into that power. If Philemon could tap into the full potential of every human soul, why did he need the assistance of the P2 cast to recreate the timeline? One could argue that it's because of his bet with Nyarlathotep, but that reasoning sounds shaky to me, considering Nyarly clearly had no problems breaking the bet's terms for his own purposes, yet didn't do anything remotely on a similar scale.
 
Solacis said:
Speaking of the Administrators, based on the quotes above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are not literally the Collective Unconscious. They are, in Philemon's words, "incarnations". Incarnations are defined as embodiments of something. It only implies Abstract Existence (Type 2) dependent on the Collective Unconscious. It gives them control over it, and allows them to survive as long as it exists, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're literally the same thing.
Click to expand...
Didn't Sera mention before that Philemon and Nyarlathotep are the literal embodiments of the Collective Unconsciousness and are basically two in the same? Unless I'm mistaken and she didn't say that. I think I remember her saying that in the first P3-5 upgrade thread.
 
We'll, 2-B honestly seems fine to me, 2-A might be possible too. Maybe we'll finally have some Persona characters that can fight SMT characters, yay
 
>Persona finally matching SMT

You don't know how happy I am to hear that. And if Joker scales... Phantom Thief VS Detective anyone? Raidou VS Joker!!!

Although let's not get hasty, I am excited but it seems 2-B does seem more likely sadly. But we'll see.
 
"Humans came into existence at a certain point in time and will inevitably die out at a much later point in time."

If we consider that each universe would be a reflection of the real, which not even Maki's universe is, humans would have their own versions of realities (a version in the past, a futurist, a magical world and so on).
 
I don't think you really understand what you're talking about here. That's not how this works.

Alternate worlds in this context is defined in separate timelines. Different timelines still share the same laws of physics at the birth of the universe. For a world to have different laws of physics would mean different universes and at least 8-dimensions. To this point, we have yet to see any evidence to support the idea of different laws of physics between the created universes.

Right now, we only have differing timelines, and only a finite amount of "soul energy" from humans across a 6D multiverse. This is 2-B at best, and even then I'm somewhat doubtful. 2-A is impossible with the evidence given so far.
 
dude you're using M-theory in your argument, but in string theory only 4 dimensions are large, the other 7 are compact and smaller than an atom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

And this does not refute my logic that every created universe will have people who can also create more universes, following this cycle endlessly.
 
Given what's discussed here, 2-B is reasonable. Now, does this scale to anyone outside P1-2 (Nyx, Yalda, God Yuki, etc)?
 
Zer00Negativo said:
dude you're using M-theory in your argument, but in string theory only 4 dimensions are large, the other 7 are compact and smaller than an atom
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

And this does not refute my logic that every created universe will have people who can also create more universes, following this cycle endlessly.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, M-theory is what we use on this wiki in regards to dimensional tiering, due to string theory being outdated. Correct me if I'm wrong; in which case, I'll stop arguing on the topic as I'd know next to nothing about any dimensions higher than the 4th.

On the second point, that would make sense. I didn't take into account that the created universes would have its own humans; which is pretty stupid of me, in hindsight. In which case, then 2-A would be possible. I'd still prefer more evidence, since this comes off as entirely too much wank, but a "possibly 2-A" isn't out of the question now.

With the current arguments, the CU can be rated as "2-B, possibly 2-A".
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
>Persona finally matching SMT

You don't know how happy I am to hear that. And if Joker scales... Phantom Thief VS Detective anyone? Raidou VS Joker!!!

Although let's not get hasty, I am excited but it seems 2-B does seem more likely sadly. But we'll see.
Click to expand...
To be perfectly fair, SMT will still stomp Persona even if they do reach 2-A.
 
Dziga said:
Given what's discussed here, 2-B is reasonable. Now, does this scale to anyone outside P1-2 (Nyx, Yalda, God Yuki, etc)?
Click to expand...
If we consider HG Yaldy to also scale to administering the CU... everyone would scale.

Well, not everyone everyone. Just every single playable character... and the Velvet Room attendants... and Hi-no-Kagutsuchi... and Takaya... and let's not even get started on how the PQ series would affect the scaling...

I'm really not looking forward to when we incorporate the PQ scaling.
 
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