Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[Omegabronic]

I am fine with Otherworld Chaos being 1-C and all as a hypothetical modern form, but this thread isn't about that.

as the story makes it clear that this is NOT a "Modern Perfect Chaos", yes

I disagree with Chaos in general being 1-C and the nightmare that would produce.

this makes it look like you are only disagreeing because of some.....unknown consequence? even tho there is no way base forms can scale, as i have shown that Chaos can one shot base Sonic no problem

True, however the Japanese version has Shadow state Sonic is stronger than Metal Overlord, and the amps are also seemingly treated as passive in the game which would mean Sonic would arguably still scale regardless. Shadow also treats Metal Overlord as generally pathetic, which seems weird if he was significantly weaker than Metal prior to his very recent amps and also contradicts his respect for Sonic’s strength.

yeah, i agree that this is a sign of scalling........but it is still an outlier here, again, Metal Overlord is literally 1-C currently, with a very solid reasoning at that, unless you are seriously arguing 1-C base forms, this doesn't work

Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord are in the exact same situation here.

nope, no one EVER tried to make Perfect Chaos a full power Super Sonic opponent before with the reasonings i am showing, he isn't in the same situation as Metal Overlord, his tier 2 ratting was never contested as being higher until now, hence why he is 2-C, it isn't because he fought base Modern Sonic at all

As far as I’m concerned PC and MO’s tiers should’ve been covered in the same thread from the start, as the legitimacy of one directly affects the legitimacy of the other.

i mean......no? MO is significantly superior to PC, PC's tier doesn't affect MO's at all

???

show me where, in either Gens, its Guide or the Encyclospeedia does it say that Perfect Chaos didn't fought a full powered Super Sonic, cuz none of them contest that notion

Why does them saying this or not saying this matter?

because that is the entire point? Sonic and co fighting them is irrelevant to weather or not they were using the Full Powers of the Emeralds in verse, things like "outliers" only exist outside of the verse as is something made up for VS Scalling, so the scans in the encyclopeedia and the guide of gens do not contradict Adventure's guide or Sonic Channel's statements at all

I agree, which is why I’m disagreeing with 1-C PC

and why can't that be an outlier for base Sonic? why is that such an impossibility for you?

So the bios for different characters and games aren’t considered primary canon? I’m confused

they are

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, it's hardly a buff, to be honest. The only visible/significant amp Shadow got was Doom Blast for physicals and Doom Wing (it's built different). I hardly consider most stuff in Shadow Gens an actual amp and more of utility that he can utilize in a pinch, to be honest. Considering it's been stated that Shadow is equal to Sonic base to base in the game and if Sonic is stated to be stronger than Metal Overlord, I just think it's safe to assume Shadow's taking the fight even without Doom Powers. Just Doom Surf giving terrain advantage and reflection move.

again, can we focus on the OP and its proposals? i am not covering a MO's tier change here

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I think an important distinction is that robotic isn't actually changing history as light man, he's just making the world and the recorded past as it would be if he had won at those times or something of the like, for example wisps in space wouldn't have memorys change of sonic even if Eggman had won.

 

[Omegabronic]

I think an important distinction is that robotic isn't actually changing history as light man, he's just making history as it would be if he had won at those times or something of the like, for example wisps in space wouldn't have memorys change of sonic even if Eggman had won.

......so he is changing history?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

......so he is changing history?

In a literal sense no he is not only metaphorically.

 

[Omegabronic]

In a literal sense no he is not only metaphorically.

it is in a literal sense.......they are even in the exact same Station Square Chaos had just destroyed in Adventure

 

[Darkmon_cns]

it is in a literal sense.......they are even in the exact same Station Square Chaos had just destroyed in Adventure

Eggman's recreation is just detailed unless you can prove memories changing outside the egg field from the past altering, it's just the creations of the past.

 

[Starsprite53]

True, however the Japanese version has Shadow state Sonic is stronger than Metal Overlord, and the amps are also seemingly treated as passive in the game which would mean Sonic would arguably still scale regardless. Shadow also treats Metal Overlord as generally pathetic, which seems weird if he was significantly weaker than Metal prior to his very recent amps and also contradicts his respect for Sonic’s strength

Tbf Shadow outright implied that his Doom powers surpass Sonic's, and it doesn’t help when you consider Shadow going all out against Metal Overlord, Shadow’s line, “You will never reach his level,” sticking solely to base Sonic is nonsensical from a narrative perspective. Metal Sonic consistently sbows he keeps up with the modern cast in Rivals and other appearances so are we really going to believe that Shadow is saying Metal will stuck as some fodder from the Adventure era? That’s absurd(especially when we’ve been blessed with Battle for Angel Island arc in IDW before ShGens)
It could also makes sense that Shadow’s comment refers to Super Sonic or how it's a nod to Metal gets his power by stealing from others meanwhile Sonic’s power is natural, always evolving, and constantly breaking new limits, that's a fundamental difference between the Sonics (Or maybe I'm leaning too deep into it so I should Shut up about it)

 

[Starsprite53]

Why THE FARK I linked Sonic 3!?

 

[Theuser789]

Tbf Shadow outright implied that his Doom powers surpass Sonic's, and it doesn’t help when you consider Shadow going all out against Metal Overlord, Shadow’s line, “You will never reach his level,” sticking solely to base Sonic is nonsensical from a narrative perspective. Metal Sonic consistently sbows he keeps up with the modern cast in Rivals and other appearances so are we really going to believe that Shadow is saying Metal will stuck as some fodder from the Adventure era? That’s absurd(especially when we’ve been blessed with Battle for Angel Island arc in IDW before ShGens)
It could also makes sense that Shadow’s comment refers to Super Sonic or how it's a nod to Metal gets his power by stealing from others meanwhile Sonic’s power is natural, always evolving, and constantly breaking new limits, that's a fundamental difference between the Sonics (Or maybe I'm leaning too deep into it so I should Shut up about it)

Because that's literally a Metal stuck as Adventure fodder? Metal Overlord is taken from Heroes, he's literally Adventure level fodder here.

 

[Starsprite53]

Because that's literally a Metal stuck as Adventure fodder? Metal Overlord is taken from Heroes, he's literally Adventure level fodder here.

Shadow said he WILL never reach his level, which is, wrong?

 

[Theuser789]

Shadow said he WILL never reach his level, which is, wrong?

Shadow is mocking Metal here. It's banter.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Shadow is mocking Metal here. It's banter.

Beyond that he could also mean he's advancing faster then metal and he could never catch up to his power

 

[Starsprite53]

Shadow is mocking Metal here. It's banter.

So why are we taking it seriously then?

 

[Omegabronic]

Shadow is mocking Metal here. It's banter.

.....which either makes it non reliable as he is just mocking him, or is still wrong as Metal indeed caught up to Sonic after the Adventure era multiple times, or is Shadow talking about his method, which is inefficient and "fake" in Shadow's view

like what Star has said

 

[Ghengiroo115]

nope, no one EVER tried to make Perfect Chaos a full power Super Sonic opponent before with the reasonings i am showing, he isn't in the same situation as Metal Overlord, his tier 2 ratting was never contested as being higher until now, hence why he is 2-C, it isn't because he fought base Modern Sonic at all

Just because no-one made this thread beforehand doesn’t change the fact that they use very similar reasonings. In fact I’d argue PC’s reasonings for being 1-C are slightly better than MO’s, but I still disagree with them.

Metal Overlord’s Gens fight is a very important argument on my side, so not being able to use that because of an outdated profile saying he’s 1-C isn’t exactly fair. Shadow beating MO isn’t accepted as an outlier here, it’s just that no-one has made a thread covering the Gens fight yet.

i mean......no? MO is significantly superior to PC, PC's tier doesn't affect MO's at all

Like I said, I think PC has better arguments. The only thing MO has that makes him specifically 1-C is emotional amps for Team Sonic. If PC isn’t 1-C with both that and other arguments, then MO can’t keep that justification and he should be Low 1-C at best (via arguably upscaling from Maginaryworld stuff).

show me where, in either Gens, its Guide or the Encyclospeedia does it say that Perfect Chaos didn't fought a full powered Super Sonic, cuz none of them contest that notion

They contest that notion by simply existing, the same way Sonic Channel and that one guidebook statement seemingly contest the idea that base Sonic can beat Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord. I can’t see what your point is here.

As an aside, are you saying one of those scans User showed is from the Generations guide? What about the Adventure guide makes it more legitimate?

and why can't that be an outlier for base Sonic? why is that such an impossibility for you?

Because I think ignoring everything shown in the actual games (the main selling point of the franchise) is extremely silly, especially when there’s outside sources that support it.

they are

OK cool. Still silly but I’ll play around that

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Just because no-one made this thread beforehand doesn’t change the fact that they use very similar reasonings. In fact I’d argue PC’s reasonings for being 1-C are slightly better than MO’s, but I still disagree with them.

Metal Overlord’s Gens fight is a very important argument on my side, so not being able to use that because of an outdated profile saying he’s 1-C isn’t exactly fair. Shadow beating MO isn’t accepted as an outlier here, it’s just that no-one has made a thread covering the Gens fight yet.

A Metal Overlord downgrade should obviously be in its own CRT tho

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbf Shadow outright implied that his Doom powers surpass Sonic's, and it doesn’t help when you consider Shadow going all out against Metal Overlord, Shadow’s line, “You will never reach his level,” sticking solely to base Sonic is nonsensical from a narrative perspective. Metal Sonic consistently sbows he keeps up with the modern cast in Rivals and other appearances so are we really going to believe that Shadow is saying Metal will stuck as some fodder from the Adventure era? That’s absurd(especially when we’ve been blessed with Battle for Angel Island arc in IDW before ShGens)
It could also makes sense that Shadow’s comment refers to Super Sonic or how it's a nod to Metal gets his power by stealing from others meanwhile Sonic’s power is natural, always evolving, and constantly breaking new limits, that's a fundamental difference between the Sonics (Or maybe I'm leaning too deep into it so I should Shut up about it)

.....which either makes it non reliable as he is just mocking him, or is still wrong as Metal indeed caught up to Sonic after the Adventure era multiple times, or is Shadow talking about his method, which is inefficient and "fake" in Shadow's view

like what Star has said

The context of the statement is that Metal’s performance is pathetic in Shadow’s eyes. Sure he’s insulting Metal with a hyperbolic statement of him “never” reaching Sonic’s level, but the banter only makes sense in the first place if Metal Overlord is weaker than Sonic. What’s the point of saying “you’ll never reach his level” if he’s stronger?

I also doubt it’s referring to Super Sonic. Not only does Shadow not know how powerful Super Sonic currently is, but the respect he shows to base Sonic’s strength compared to Metal Overlord’s points towards it being base Sonic he’s referring to. It only applying to Super Sonic also misses the point of the insult, as it isn’t much of a flex to say “yeah you’ll never surpass your rival (as long as he has seven coloured rocks)”. Remember this is the same guy that refused to use his own amps against Sonic.

A Metal Overlord downgrade should obviously be in its own CRT tho

Tbh yeah, I guess it’d be better to say that Metal Overlord should’ve gone first? Then again you could use the same logic against Omega by saying he can’t use any of his Perfect Chaos arguments, which I think is equally silly.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I also think I’m gonna tap out from debating now, idk if temporary or permanent. I’m getting a bit burnt out and I’ve said pretty much all I’ve wanted to say.

 

[Omegabronic]

Just because no-one made this thread beforehand doesn’t change the fact that they use very similar reasonings. In fact I’d argue PC’s reasonings for being 1-C are slightly better than MO’s, but I still disagree with them.

their reasonings......have nothing to do with eachother's, PC being 1-C or not is not going to downgrade MO's rating

Metal Overlord’s Gens fight is a very important argument on my side, so not being able to use that because of an outdated profile saying he’s 1-C isn’t exactly fair. Shadow beating MO isn’t accepted as an outlier here, it’s just that no-one has made a thread covering the Gens fight yet.

it isn't outdated, again, Metal's reasoning is solid, the Shadow Gens fight is just an outlier, that's it

Like I said, I think PC has better arguments. The only thing MO has that makes him specifically 1-C is emotional amps for Team Sonic.

no? that isn't even said in the profile, what is said is that Sonic needed time to charge up the Emeralds to fight him, which he rarely is ever shown to do, and the few times he did was with tier 1 foes like Solaris or the Time Eater, therefore MO is that high, as well as Eggman's statements putting him at minimum above tier 1 beings like Void and Illumina

If PC isn’t 1-C with both that and other arguments, then MO can’t keep that justification and he should be Low 1-C at best (via arguably upscaling from Maginaryworld stuff).

nope, as MO has......a completely different reasoning, i sincerely don't know why you keep hammering this point

They contest that notion by simply existing,

nope, they do not, Sonic beating Chaos, IN VERSE no outside VS Battle definitions or terms, does not prove nor disprove Chaos using the Full Power of the Emeralds or him fighting a Full Powered Super Sonic, aka the Guide and Sonic Channel statement are factually non contradicted

the same way Sonic Channel and that one guidebook statement seemingly contest the idea that base Sonic can beat Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord. I can’t see what your point is here.

1 the guidebook didn't said "modern sonic in base can't beat chaos"

2 i was referencing specifically the Sonic Adventure manual and Sonic channel description about PC being a Full Power Emerald opponent, not the Otherworldly comedy storyline about PC one shotting Base Sonic

As an aside, are you saying one of those scans User showed is from the Generations guide? What about the Adventure guide makes it more legitimate?

.....wdym "more legitimate"? i never made such a claim, they just factually do not contradict the notion that Chaos fought a Full Powered Super Sonic

Because I think ignoring everything shown in the actual games (the main selling point of the franchise) is extremely silly, especially when there’s outside sources that support it.

you......do you understand you are doing this right now by ignoring the Game manual for Sonic adventure right? also......my notion has far more sources supporting it

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Agree with the OP. I think the only reason people are against it is because of the consequences this could have down the line. I hate it too, but the evidence doesn't lie and the best counter-argument to this is the fact that base Sonic and Shadow beat PC and MO. That's just not a good point though in the grand scheme of things

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Eggman's recreation is just detailed unless you can prove memories changing outside the egg field from the past altering, it's just the creations of the past.

Do you concede that there isn't enough evidence to say actual time manipulation was involved?

 

[Omegabronic]

The context of the statement is that Metal’s performance is pathetic in Shadow’s eyes. Sure he’s insulting Metal with a hyperbolic statement of him “never” reaching Sonic’s level, but the banter only makes sense in the first place if Metal Overlord is weaker than Sonic. What’s the point of saying “you’ll never reach his level” if he’s stronger?

mocking his method as Metal is equally mocking Shadow about being "the true ultimate lifeform"?

I also doubt it’s referring to Super Sonic. Not only does Shadow not know how powerful Super Sonic currently is

......yes he does? he is = to Sonic, so his Super Form is as strong as Sonic's, so he knows

, but the respect he shows to base Sonic’s strength compared to Metal Overlord’s points towards it being base Sonic he’s referring to. It only applying to Super Sonic also misses the point of the insult, as it isn’t much of a flex to say “yeah you’ll never surpass your rival (as long as he has seven coloured rocks)”. Remember this is the same guy that refused to use his own amps against Sonic.

.....which either makes it non reliable as he is just mocking him, or is still wrong as Metal indeed caught up to Sonic after the Adventure era multiple times, or is Shadow talking about his method, which is inefficient and "fake" in Shadow's view

like what Star has said

Tbh yeah, I guess it’d be better to say that Metal Overlord should’ve gone first? Then again you could use the same logic against Omega by saying he can’t use any of his Perfect Chaos arguments, which I think is equally silly.

.......what? no, you absolutely can't say "he can’t use any of his Perfect Chaos arguments", what are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense

 

[Theuser789]

Agree with the OP. I think the only reason people are against it is because of the consequences this could have down the line. I hate it too, but the evidence doesn't lie and the best counter-argument to this is the fact that base Sonic and Shadow beat PC and MO. That's just not a good point though in the grand scheme of things

I will change this by making Sonic follow the Dragon Ball route of forms getting stronger overtime.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Agree with the OP. I think the only reason people are against it is because of the consequences this could have down the line. I hate it too, but the evidence doesn't lie and the best counter-argument to this is the fact that base Sonic and Shadow beat PC and MO. That's just not a good point though in the grand scheme of things

Lol, I love the consequences of that. It's hilarious to imagine the entire verse just getting a huge boost in CRACK power.

 

[Omegabronic]

Do you concede that there isn't enough evidence to say actual time manipulation was involved?

history being changed was the entire point of the Altered Phantom Ruby, it altered their histories at large, that is the entire point of why Otherworldly comedy even happened

 

[JJSliderman]

Either that or Eggman just making super illusions involving characters from history.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Either that or Eggman just making super illusions involving characters from history.

That seems like the most logical assumption, if he had truly changed history it should be effected outside the eggfield, so unless there's indication of that, Eggman making the world as if he hasn't failed fits his motive all the same.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I wanted my 1-C Sonic...

same

 

[Alexander]

same

We are two

 

[Monsters_fight]

Anyways, I am currently neutral

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

I'm mostly agree, just not with the outlier stuff.

 

[Omegabronic]

That seems like the most logical assumption, if he had truly changed history it should be effected outside the eggfield, so unless there's indication of that, Eggman making the world as if he hasn't failed fits his motive all the same.

he doesn't have the range to alter history that far, he altered the Planet's perception itself, thus only the planet was affected

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Apologies, but as I said before I won’t be responding anymore. I don’t think there’s anything else I can add so I’m gonna start lurking now.

Snip

 

[Darkmon_cns]

he doesn't have the range to alter history that far, he altered the Planet's perception itself, thus only the planet was affected

He didn't change history at all then. If he had opened a portal back in time and had altered history the whole universe would he affected dispite his power being limited to earth.

Instead he's "metaphorically" changing history by using his powers to make it "as if" he had won all those times, so the illusions of them are exactly as powerful as Eggman is capable of making them(as he has no reason to create enforcers to fight sonic and make them weaker then he could) and no weaker or stronger

 

[Omegabronic]

He didn't change history at all then. If he had opened a portal back in time and had altered history the whole universe would he affected dispite his power being limited to earth.

Instead he's "metaphorically" changing history by using his powers to make it "as if" he had won all those times, so the illusions of them are exactly as powerful as Eggman is capable of making them(as he has no reason to create enforcers to fight sonic and make them weaker then he could) and no weaker or stronger

no, as he is specifically creating alternate worlds/other universes withing the planet's range, with altered events where he had won, he IS changing history, just not on the entire universe as he limited the Eggfield's range to only affect Earth, the whole point is him changing Earth's perception of how the events that happened on it occured, hence why one's memories are also altered, because their histories are actually chaging

this is already accepted, hence why Lightman Eggman has Causality manip, he is specifically chaging the "world line"

 

[Theuser789]

Otherworld Ruby was actually warping reality, so his illusions would've become the actual reality once the process was done.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

no, as he is specifically creating alternate worlds/other universes withing the planet's range, with altered events where he had won, he IS changing history, just not on the entire universe as he limited the Eggfield's range to only affect Earth, the whole point is him changing Earth's perception of how the events that happened on it occured, hence why one's memories are also altered, because their histories are actually chaging

this is already accepted, hence why Lightman Eggman has Causality manip, he is specifically chaging the "world line"

Even if this is the case, it dosen't change the core point, when Eggman created these worlds with in the Planet's range he "made them" he again could have empowered all the relevant characters to fight super sonic, I find that to be a more senseable interpretation of events then chaos was many many degrees of infinte stronger then we thought.

 

[Omegabronic]

Even if this is the case, it dosen't change the core point, when Eggman created these worlds with in the Planet's range he "made them" he again could have empowered all the relevant characters to fight super sonic, I find that to be a more senseable interpretation of events then chaos was many many degrees of infinte stronger then we thought.

Sure he "could", but as far as we are told, he didn't, he merely changed history, empowerment is never stated and is as such headcanon, since we don't even know if Lightman Eggman has such hax

Also, this is a deal breaker at all, all other statements and reasoning are still there in the OP, this point being wrong or not doesn't change the fact that Perfect Chaos fought a Full Powered Super Sonic as.......literally everything screams at us that he did

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Sure he "could", but as far as we are told, he didn't, he merely changed history, empowerment is never stated and is as such headcanon, since we don't even know if Lightman Eggman has such hax

Also, this is a deal breaker at all, all other statements and reasoning are still there in the OP, this point being wrong or not doesn't change the fact that Perfect Chaos fought a Full Powered Super Sonic as.......literally everything screams at us that he did

I admit I just wanted to confront the part that particularly bothered me. If you don't believe it's important enough to change anything then so be it. I'll just wait for mods