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Pennywise vs Rimuru (LN)

...Is the Conceptual Intelligence a separate being or consciousness of its own, or?
 
Yes, but is this Conceptual Intelligence thing a separate entity, or just a weird conceptual thing that each of the characters have?

This actually has some bearing on the result of the match, so I'd like to know.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
...Is the Conceptual Intelligence a separate being or consciousness of its own, or?
Click to expand...
"Great Sage" is part of Rimuru's soul, but Rimuru is able to converse with it and they can switch places in regards to who controls the body if neccessary. They also do NOT share their thoughts automatically. Furthermore Great Sage possesses a database of all of Rimuru's memories, with everything perfectly preserved, even retroactively, to the point that all memories are photographic.

It's like an AI, basically, but it's not synthethic in the sense that it can be hacked, and it's not organic either, more like Non-Corporeal since it doesn't really have any sort of corporeal vessel, though it's part of Rimuru's soul. And technically speaking it is a "Skill".

It's also able to hide Rimuru's thoughts (except the "surface thoughts", but it's unclear whether Great Sage shows them on purpose or just can't hide them) from an expert mind-reader whithout being detected.
 
Ehh, somewhat, yes. Something that exists in Rimuru's soul to cope with the loneliness of lasting in a cave for over 90+ days, which grew sentience.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Yes, but is this Conceptual Intelligence thing a separate entity, or just a weird conceptual thing that each of the characters have?

This actually has some bearing on the result of the match, so I'd like to know.
Click to expand...
It's unique to Rimuru, or more specifically it's a "Unique Skill", moreover a Skill that basically "mutated" to what it is because Rimuru was reinarcarnated without any sensual organs into a gigantic cave, felt lonely, and wished for a conversation partner. Newly formed Unique Skills usually reflect the mind of the user at the time so it changed into something that Rimuru can converse with. No other characters have shown to have anything similar as of yet.

There ARE characters with utility-based Skills in Slimeverse, but these only give the user increased direct calculation ability or are simple I/O abilities. But they all don't communicate with the user, so yes, it's a unique phenomenom for Rimuru.
 
EmperorDoom25 said:
Wasn't already discussed that Coercion wouldn't work well on Penny? Why it does now?
Click to expand...
Why not? There are no resistances. So pretty much EVERY hax should work on Penny.
And please don't tell me that this is another case of "everyone was either too lazy or forgot to add them, but they actually exist." I am sick and tired of that, escpacially for characters with Tier 1 hax.
 
NeoSuperior said:
EmperorDoom25 said:
Wasn't already discussed that Coercion wouldn't work well on Penny? Why it does now?
Click to expand...
Why not? There are no resistances. So pretty much EVERY hax should work on Penny.
And please don't tell me that this is another case of "everyone was either too lazy or forgot to add them, but they actually exist." I am sick and tired of that, escpacially for characters with Tier 1 hax.
Click to expand...
It wont work. Coercion's abilities are all subsets of Mindhax

Penny's avatar has 1-A mind, so good luck trying to affect to that
 
No, Coercion in Slimeverse is an (active) Aura-based ability. While it has mental effects, it has physical effects too, the knock-out seems to be BOTH.

Also "1-A mind" sounds great and all, but there is no resistance listed. If it has mindhax resistance up until 11D or something due to being mentally a higher dimensional existence, then I think it should be mentioned in the resistance page for the tier 7 key and only if there is proof that the "mind" is the true self and not a "downgraded avatar version" as well.
 
Hang on now.

>"which grew sentience"

That seems like what I was looking for. This is going to be a long post, so bear with me.

For starters, that "expert mind reader" had better have some really good feats, because Pennywise not only has "33,000+ people" levels of telepathic potency, but is also a much more powerful telepath than the likes of Roland Deschain and Randall Flagg. The former can "see what's in (a person's) mind" before said person realizes they're thinking it, and the latter can accurately assume the form of something from a person's long-time past after only a few moments of being within passive mind-reading range of them. (Which Pennywise has also done, in the form of transforming into something based upon a character's old and near-forgotten fear of crows)

As for the Intelligence being a separate entity, I'm going to need to explain some things that are established in the book, the first being that Pennywise's avatar follows the rules of the shape it inhabits:

When It had burst up into the house on Neibolt Street, meaning to kill them all, vaguely uneasy that It had not been able to do so already (and surely that unease had been the first new thing), something had happened which was totally unexpected, utterly unthought of, and there had been pain, pain, great roaring pain all through the shape it had taken, and for one moment there had also been fear, because the only thing It had in common with the stupid old Turtle and the cosmology of the macroverse outside the puny egg of this universe was just this: all living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit. For the first time It realized that perhaps Its ability to change Its shapes might work against It as well as for It.
~ IT​
This causes dumb moments like the werewolf form getting badly hurt by silver, among other things, but that's not what's important.

The second thing established is that it can cause multiple beings to perceive it as multiple different shapes at once:

Richie chanced a glance behind him as he flung himself onto the package carrier and saw the Werewolf crossing the lawn toward them, less than twenty feet away now. Blood and slobber mixed on its high-school jacket. White bone gleamed through its pelt about the right temple. There were white smudges of sneezing powder on the sides of its nose. And Richie saw two other things which seemed to complete the horror. There was no zipper on the thing's jacket; instead there were big fluffy orange buttons, like pompoms.
~ IT​
So once again Bill Denbrough found himself racing to beat the devil, only now the devil was a hideously grinning clown whose face sweated white greasepaint, whose mouth curved up in a leering red vampire smile, whose eyes were bright silver coins. A clown who was, for some lunatic reason, wearing a Derry High School jacket over its silvery suit with the orange ruff and the orange pompom buttons.
~ IT​
These two characters were telepathically linked, so each of them started seeing bits of what the other was perceiving. We'll get back to that in a moment.

Not only can it appear as multiple things to multiple beings, it can also cause multiple beings to perceive it doing multiple different things at once, effectively allowing it to perform multiple actions at the same time:


Chris Unwin went to the railing and looked over. He saw Hagarty first, sliding and clawing his way down the weedy, trash-littered embankment to the water. Then he saw the clown. The clown was dragging Adrian out on the far side with one arm; its balloons were in its other hand. Adrian was dripping wet, choking, moaning. The clown twisted its head and grinned up at Chris. Chris said he saw its shining silver eyes and its bared teeth—great big teeth, he said.

"Like the lion in the circus, man," he said. "I mean, they were that big."

Then, he said, he saw the clown shove one of Adrian Mellon's arms back so it lay over his head.

"Then what, Chris?" Boutillier said. He was bored with this part. Fairytales had bored him since the age of eight on.

"I dunno," Chris said. "That was when Steve grabbed me and hauled me into the car. But . . . I think it bit into his armpit." He looked up at them again, uncertain now. "I think that's what it did. Bit into his armpit.

"Like it wanted to eat him, man. Like it wanted to eat his heart."
~ IT​

No, Hagarty said when he was presented with Chris Unwin's story in the form of questions. The clown did not drag Ade up on the far bank, at least not that he saw—and he would grant that he had been something less than a disinterested observer by that point; by that point he had been out of his ******* mind.
The clown, he said, was standing near the far bank with Adrian's dripping body clutched in its arms. Ade's right arm was stuck stiffly out behind the clown's head, and the clown's face was indeed in Ade's right armpit, but it was not biting: it was smiling. Hagarty could see it looking out from beneath Ade's arm and smiling.

The clown's arms tightened, and Hagarty heard ribs splinter.

Ade shrieked.

"Float with us, Don," the clown said out of its grinning red mouth, and then pointed with one of its white-gloved hands under the bridge.

Balloons floated against the underside of the bridge—not a dozen or a dozen dozens but thousands, red and blue and green and yellow, and printed on the side of each was

I

ƒÆÖ

DERRY!

"Well now, that surely does sound like a lot of balloons," Reeves said, and tipped Harold Gardener another wink.

"I know how it sounds," Hagarty reiterated in the same dreary voice.
~ IT​
"Oh, give me a break!" Boutillier roared, throwing up his hands, "They killed him! They didn't just throw him over the side—Garton had a switchblade. Mellon was stabbed seven times, including once in the left lung and twice in the testicles. The wounds match the blade. Four of his ribs were broken—Dubay did that, bear-hugging him. He was bitten, all right. There were bites on his arms, his left cheek, his neck. I think that was Unwin and Garton, although we've only got one clear match, and that one's probably not clear enough to stand up in court. And so all right, there was a big chunk of meat gone from his right armpit, so what? One of them really liked to bite. Probably even got himself a pretty good bone-on while he was doing it. I'm betting Garton, although we'll never prove it. And Mellon's earlobe was gone."
~ IT​
As you can probably tell, this "being/doing multiple things when multiple people are around" is also relatively in-character and it does this multiple times. But anyway...

While not exactly tested in-verse, going by the shape-inhabiting rules of Pennywise's avatar and the fact that two people perceiving it apparently alters reality so that it's capable of taking multiple different shapes and doing multiple different things (and even being in two places at once, judging from the last set of quotes), the following conclusions can be drawn:

  • If two entities are observing it in a combat scenario, it can be in two places at once and effectively circumvent what's thrown at it.
  • If two entities are observing it, an attack on it that actually lands is going to have two different effects on two different shapes, and thereby...actually, I dunno exactly what this entails, but the likeliest thing is that it just won't work the way it's supposed to.
The only issue is that Rimuru and the Intelligence seem to be linked the same way Bill and Richie were. I'm not entirely sure how that affects the above.
 
And yes, I absolutely had to include all those quotes from the book. This concept is pretty ******* ridiculous even to me, so I'm 99% sure everyone else would think I was outright full of shit if I hadn't been so forthcoming.
 
I╠ ╠Âw╠Âa╠Ân╠Ân╠Âa╠ ╠Âm╠Âa╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠ÂE╠Âx╠Ât╠Âe╠Ân╠Âd╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠ÂC╠Âa╠Ân╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠ÂS╠ÂC╠ÂP╠Â-╠Â6╠Â8╠Â2╠ ╠Âv╠Âs╠ ╠ÂH╠Âi╠Âg╠Âh╠ ╠Â7╠Â-╠ÂA╠ ╠ÂP╠Âe╠Ân╠Ân╠Ây╠Âw╠Âi╠Âs╠Âe╠ ╠Ân╠Âo╠Âw╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âl╠Â
 
Stalker Maggot said:
I╠ ╠Âw╠Âa╠Ân╠Ân╠Âa╠ ╠Âm╠Âa╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠ÂE╠Âx╠Ât╠Âe╠Ân╠Âd╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠ÂC╠Âa╠Ân╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠ÂS╠ÂC╠ÂP╠Â-╠Â6╠Â8╠Â2╠ ╠Âv╠Âs╠ ╠ÂH╠Âi╠Âg╠Âh╠ ╠Â7╠Â-╠ÂA╠ ╠ÂP╠Âe╠Ân╠Ân╠Ây╠Âw╠Âi╠Âs╠Âe╠ ╠Ân╠Âo╠Âw╠ ╠Âl╠Âo╠Âl╠Â
Click to expand...
Death to a Wikia.
 
Even reading all of this, wouldn;t Rimuru ve victories due to the overwhelming amount of capabilities he has? (Haven't finished the series, but I'd assumed he's an immensely powerful being).
 
Rimuru and the intelligence are linked, however this "AI" resides within his soul, so in the chance that Rimuru is taken out by the mindhax, then Great Sage has no problems merely taking over. It should be noted Great Sage is incredibly relentless and is far more proficient in using Rimuru's abilities (because LN Rimuru sorta doubts himself and subconsciously sandbags).

If they were to see two different things, one would let the other know of this, or merely switch to Magic Sense, which merely SIMULATES the movement of light and sound to determine his surroundings, and can be used even if his eyes or ears were out of commission.

Abilities isn't what decides this, though.
 
It's not just about seeing two different things, though.

If there are two different beings observing the avatar, then there are two different shapes being observed. And as the book makes perfectly clear, both of these shapes would have a separate effect on reality and, by and large, exist as two separate things that are somehow the same being.

It's a paradoxical "Schrodinger's Cat" kind of issue. In this scenario, it would exist as two things at once, and could simultaneously be "standing here" and "not standing here" at the same time. And it actually does just that in the novel, as you can see from the quotes.

Pennywise would also follow the "laws" of both of these shapes, so something that might work on one shape might not work on the other and thereby be rendered null. (Ex: Pennywise has turned into an animated version of Derry's Paul Bunyan statue before, so Inorganic Physiology rules would be in play if one of these two shapes were to have physiology similar to that)
 
But here there is no room for "two different shapes". We are literally using his High 7-A tier, which is a specific form. No variation.
 
That doesn't mean its powers just stop working the way they're shown to in-canon, or that it's just not allowed to use its shapeshifting at all. Unless you're suggesting we restrict that power entirely. (We could, but that would defeat the point, since A] we wouldn't be able to add this to the profiles after that, and B] this is a match for a Strongest Character spot, meaning restricting things is counterintuitive anyway)

The OP doesn't seem to have a problem with it, either.
 
Well, his shapeshifting ability caps at the form closest to his true form. That's his strongest known form and the one being used here. Saying he can still shapeshift means that he can use other forms that are still that powerful, which we dont know.

This is like locking Ben10 into one of his aliens.
 
No, saying Penny can still shapeshift means...it still has shapeshifting as a power, and that's something it does in-character. Constantly.

1. Ben's aliens have separate profiles to use, 2. the thread's rules don't say anywhere that Penny isn't allowed to shapeshift into other forms at all, and 3. I still don't see the OP objecting to any of what's been said thus far, which leads me to believe that what I've outlined is perfectly within the limits of what he deems to be the rules.
 
Well, that only means that him shapeshifting into other forms defeats the purpose of using a specific tier.

Not an issue btw.
 
I don't have that much of an opinion on that, since this is supposed to be for a Strongest Characters spot. Or something.
 
NeoSuperior said:
No, Coercion in Slimeverse is an (active) Aura-based ability. While it has mental effects, it has physical effects too, the knock-out seems to be BOTH.
Also "1-A mind" sounds great and all, but there is no resistance listed. If it has mindhax resistance up until 11D or something due to being mentally a higher dimensional existence, then I think it should be mentioned in the resistance page for the tier 7 key and only if there is proof that the "mind" is the true self and not a "downgraded avatar version" as well.
Click to expand...
Are you literally saying that Coercion would work on a 1-A?


...................Bruh
 
IF I remembered corretly, we had a discussion on the topic where it was concluded "Great Sage" wasn't considered to be an alternative intelligence in Rimuru but just like an ai in his soul.

Later though for his Demon Slime's key. the skill did evolved, developing a self-awareness, and can act without Rimuru's inputs which surprised those with high intellects in the verse like Mjurran, Diablo; this case give him Multiple Personalities, in summary.

I want to be sure before voting, can trapping Pennywise in Barrier or BFR negated his Immortality Type 9 because I know some higher-Dimension characters like SCP-682 that will just created another avatar or help it to fight if it is the case?
 
Are you literally saying that Coercion would work on a 1-A?


...................Bruh

He's not saying that, he's saying his higher dimensional mind should be listed.
 
I don't know about negating the immortality entirely, but if you mean to ask "can BFR serve as a means of incap?"...

Yeah.
 
@EmperorDoom25

Please re-read my post. I am saying that Coercion, via pressure from Rimuru's Aura knocks out the BODY of the avatar. You know how a hit on the head can K.O. someone? It's closer to that sort of physical trauma rather than some sort of "sleeping spell". It was listed as "Sleep Manipulation" only because no equivalent page for "K.O. inducement" exists (which I find strange in itself, but whatever), but regardless, saying he "resists because of higher dimensional mind" won't work here.

In regards to the 1-A part I was only reminding to ADD THE RESISTANCE TO THE PROFILE if it exists. That of course assumes that there isn't some sort of seperate "Avatar mind" in the first place. I understand that there might be different resistances and abilities depending on which avatar version it is shapeshifted into, but just leaving the resistances empty so it has to be asked about every single time is not a solution, you know.
 
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