Pacific Rim: Cancelling The 7-A-pocalypse

[1000TonsofFun]

So since the last few threads, I have found a lot of info that gets Pacific Rim characters into higher tiers.

Gipsy Danger self destruction + Mega-Kaiju upgrades
According to Pacific Rim novelisation, Gipsy Danger’s self destruction was observed as releasing a thousand times the energy of any kaiju passage by Tendo Choi. This is important to note as the energy to open a breach was found to be 7.90318853022 teratons of tnt meaning that Gipsy Danger’s self destruction would be equal to 7.90318853022 Petatons of TNT or Multi Continent level. The Mega-Kaiju would upscale from this as it was described as being the “greatest accomplishment of a human mind” and Newt is described as feeling exalted at the “power he had brought into this world”. It is important to note that this was from Newt’s perspective, who was present when Gipsy Danger self-destructed and likely saw the same readings as Tendo Choi did, so him feeling so much happiness and describing it as the human mind’s greatest accomplishment suggests that the Mega-Kaiju has superiority to Gipsy Danger’s self destruction. The Mega-Kaiju should also get a key for its weakened self as according to this profile (translation here), its firepower and speed decreased after one of its secondary brains was destroyed. Its durability should stay the same though as there isn’t any evidence to suggest that this has any impact on the Mega-Kaiju’s armour or body structure. All who are capable of damaging Mega-Kaiju (e.g. Gipsy Avenger/Obsidian Fury’s Plasma chainsaws, Bracer Phoenix’s/Titan Redeemer’s M-19 Morningstar) would scale to this and Gipsy Avenger’s self destruction would upscale as it one shot the Mega-Kaiju.


Mega Kaiju Scaling
Agree: @Apex_Predator_GX @Felipe_Walker16
Disagree: @Crabwhale @FinePoint
Neutral:

Self-Destruction scaling
Agree: @Apex_Predator_GX @Felipe_Walker16 @FinePoint
Disagree: @Crabwhale
Neutral:

Update to Kaiju and Jaeger scaling (or the death of tier 7)
So previously it was agreed that only Post-Uprising Kaiju would scale to Island level based on Crabcakes briefly taking this much energy, a notion I agreed with. However, since then I have found numerous pieces of evidence suggesting that pre-uprising Kaiju would also scale to this level of AP. Firstly, Trespasser was possibly capable of causing a massive tsunami according to the official TTRPG which would give some consistency for a 6-C rating. Whilst there may be some doubts about the full canonicity of the game, it should be noted that it is an official product and that the aforementioned feat is brought up in the timeline section, which was likely oversaw by Legendary (I doubt Legendary would let them straight up lie about the events of the timeline, even if the story of the RPG wasn’t canon). Secondly, in Pacific Rim: The Black, several kaiju from the original film can be seen being used to invade Australia including Slatterns, Mutavores, Leatherbacks, Otachis and Trespassers along with what appears to be an Insurrector (on the centre right of the image below the Mutavore in the top right. Obscured by a rock. Here’s the full design for reference) which first appeared in a flashback in Uprising. In addition to this, The Black also notes that Atlas Destroyer, the series main Jaeger, is an old, stripped down Mark 3 training Jaeger. For reference, Gipsy Danger was also a Mark 3 Jaeger, whilst the Jaegers in Uprising ranged from Marks 5 to 7, therefore Gipsy Danger and the other Film 1 Jaegers would likely scale to base Atlas Destroyer (pre Saber Chain) who was capable of taking attacks from Copperhead and Apex, the former being described as “Jaeger Breaker” and the latter of which is explicitly an evolved kaiju drone, with the regular versions being capable of destroying Uprising era Jaegers.

“But kaiju get killed by nukes” - yes, but this is likely due to the kaiju’s weakness to heat. This is shown by Scunner’s head being severely burned by hydrothermal vents which are around 400 degrees Celsius. In addition, the entire plot of Uprising centred around stopping the kaiju’s blood from reacting with Mount Fuji’s lava, with lava usually being at most 1200 degrees Celsius. For reference, the Hiroshima bomb reached temperatures of 7700 degrees Celsius and that was smaller in yield than many modern bombs.

Agree: @Apex_Predator_GX @Felipe_Walker16
Disagree: @Armorchompy @Crabwhale @FinePoint
Neutral:


AP Upgrade
The high tiers (Cat 6 Kaiju, Cat 5 Kaiju, Strongest Cat 4s, Post-Uprising Jaegers) of the verse should be at Island Level+ via scaling to the Drone Jaegers’ beams. This is because Raijin is confirmed to be the most dangerous Kaiju so it should probably upscale since the drones are technically Kaiju (they run on Kaiju blue). Additionally, Obsidian Fury is stated to be one of the toughest opponents of the PPDC, and more specifically one of the toughest rogue Jaegers to beat implying superiority over the Drones, which fits with the statement of it being “so powerful its origins are shrouded in secrecy” and being “the deadliest Jaeger to ever walk the Earth” from the Diamond select figure (keep in mind this figure was released in August of 2018, whilst the film released on home releases a month earlier, so both Diamond Select Toys and the intended audience of the toy would know of the Drone Jaeger’s existence. Since Obsidian Fury would be more powerful than the Drone Jaegers, its chest beam would be too as both the Drones’ and Obsidian’s chest beams are linked to the power cores of the respective Jaegers (source for second statement), which is supported by a statement from Steven S Deknight (Uprising’s director). Gipsy Avenger could endure prolonged exposure to said beam and tank short bursts from it as well, putting its durability at this level. Obsidian Fury is described as matching the structure of Gipsy Avenger as well as being made of “unbreakable obsidian” (also described as being intensely hard) so it should be just as durable, and Gipsy Avenger was capable of punching a hole in Obsidian Fury, so Gipsy’s AP would be equal to its own durability. Obsidian Fury was also shown to retreat when other Uprising Jaegers arrived so they would also scale around Gipsy Avenger’s level. The strongest Cat IVs, such as Copperhead, are said to be “Jaeger Breakers”, with many of the Jaegers shown in the series being Uprising Era types (e.g. Obsidian Fury, Saber Athena, Titan Redeemer). In case you’re wondering how these Jaegers can return after their destruction, the Uprising art book mentions that other Jaegers across the globe might be built to those same specifications. Striker’s self destruction will scale to High 6-C+ based on this thread (no, Slattern wouldn’t scale to this as they were incredibly damaged by the explosion and were likely shielded by most of Striker’s body being in the way. Slattern instead should downscale from Raijin as they are both Category Vs which, contrary to what I’ve said in prior threads, would actually be stronger than any Cat IVs, as Category is based on Power and Threat level according to WOG). Breacher would upscale above all Category 5 Kaiju.

EDIT: The cast of the original film should be upgraded as according to this Calc (accepted here), Gipsy Danger withstood 69.1033329349 Megatons of TNT (City level+) worth of energy from Striker Eureka’s self-destruction. Gipsy Danger isn’t any stronger or more durable post-refit which is supported by Knifehead being stronger than Otachi (with even Onibaba being as strong as Otachi), therefore all of the cast besides Trespasser and other Category 1s would scale.
Full Cast
Agree: @Apex_Predator_GX @Felipe_Walker16
Disagree: @Armorchompy @Crabwhale @FinePoint
Neutral:

Original Movie Upgrade
Agree: @FinePoint
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Hellbeast]

This should be interesting

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

I agree, Island+ level and remarkably consistent for the verse

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Bump

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

One question: Couldn't you open an official profile here on the Obsidian Fury Wiki? Since it has some good information for a dedicated profile.

we currently have the Gipsy Danger, Striker Eureka, Cherno Alpha, Crismon typhoon, Gipsy Avenger and Bracer Phoenix.

 

[Armorchompy]

Gipsy Danger self destruction + Mega-Kaiju upgrades
According to Pacific Rim novelisation, Gipsy Danger’s self destruction was observed as releasing a thousand times the energy of any kaiju passage by Tendo Choi. This is important to note as the energy to open a breach was found to be 7.90318853022 teratons of tnt meaning that Gipsy Danger’s self destruction would be equal to 7.90318853022 Petatons of TNT or Multi Continent level. The Mega-Kaiju would upscale from this as it was described as being the “greatest accomplishment of a human mind” and Newt is described as feeling exalted at the “power he had brought into this world”. It is important to note that this was from Newt’s perspective, who was present when Gipsy Danger self-destructed and likely saw the same readings as Tendo Choi did, so him feeling so much happiness and describing it as the human mind’s greatest accomplishment suggests that the Mega-Kaiju has superiority to Gipsy Danger’s self destruction. The Mega-Kaiju should also get a key for its weakened self as according to this profile (translation here), its firepower and speed decreased after one of its secondary brains was destroyed. Its durability should stay the same though as there isn’t any evidence to suggest that this has any impact on the Mega-Kaiju’s armour or body structure. All who are capable of damaging Mega-Kaiju (e.g. Gipsy Avenger/Obsidian Fury’s Plasma chainsaws, Bracer Phoenix’s/Titan Redeemer’s M-19 Morningstar) would scale to this and Gipsy Avenger’s self destruction would upscale as it one shot the Mega-Kaiju.

Something being a greater achievement than something else is not viable grounds for upscaling. The cure for cancer (or if we're sticking to things meant for combat: a really good stealth drone or something) wouldn't upscale from the Tsar Bomba.

I would also ask for evidence of the novelization's canonicity.

So previously it was agreed that only Post-Uprising Kaiju would scale to Island level based on Crabcakes briefly taking this much energy, a notion I agreed with. However, since then I have found numerous pieces of evidence suggesting that pre-uprising Kaiju would also scale to this level of AP. Firstly, Trespasser was possibly capable of causing a massive tsunami according to the official TTRPG which would give some consistency for a 6-C rating.

As the calc itself acknowledges the tsunami may have been the result of the breach, not the Kaiju itself, and could also have happened overtime

Whilst there may be some doubts about the full canonicity of the game, it should be noted that it is an official product and that the aforementioned feat is brought up in the timeline section, which was likely oversaw by Legendary (I doubt Legendary would let them straight up lie about the events of the timeline, even if the story of the RPG wasn’t canon).

Something being an official product isn't evidence of canonicity, it's the bare minimum to even have it on the wiki. I don't think I need to give examples of non-canon official products. And the reasoning that "Legendary oversaw the timeline because they might have gotten it wrong on their own" is similarly conjecture, especially given that this seems to be a very small project. In the credits there is no such hypothetical Legendary overseer credited.

Secondly, in Pacific Rim: The Black, several kaiju from the original film can be seen being used to invade Australia including Slatterns, Mutavores, Leatherbacks, Otachis and Trespassers along with what appears to be an Insurrector (on the centre right of the image below the Mutavore in the top right. Obscured by a rock. Here’s the full design for reference) which first appeared in a flashback in Uprising. In addition to this, The Black also notes that Atlas Destroyer, the series main Jaeger, is an old, stripped down Mark 3 training Jaeger. For reference, Gipsy Danger was also a Mark 3 Jaeger, whilst the Jaegers in Uprising ranged from Marks 5 to 7, therefore Gipsy Danger and the other Film 1 Jaegers would likely scale to base Atlas Destroyer (pre Saber Chain) who was capable of taking attacks from Copperhead and Apex, the former being described as “Jaeger Breaker” and the latter of which is explicitly an evolved kaiju drone, with the regular versions being capable of destroying Uprising era Jaegers.

"Capable of taking attacks" It literally gets an arm ripped off in the first fight and gets tossed aside easily in the second.

“But kaiju get killed by nukes” - yes, but this is likely due to the kaiju’s weakness to heat. This is shown by Scunner’s head being severely burned by hydrothermal vents which are around 400 degrees Celsius. In addition, the entire plot of Uprising centred around stopping the kaiju’s blood from reacting with Mount Fuji’s lava, with lava usually being at most 1200 degrees Celsius. For reference, the Hiroshima bomb reached temperatures of 7700 degrees Celsius and that was smaller in yield than many modern bombs.

These are all anti-feats. To my knowledge it's never stated they're notably vulnerable to heat (and they can withstand more heat-based energy attacks from the Jaegers just fine, including the chest beams at the core of this whole argument) and being a certain durability would prevent certain levels of heat from harming you.

The high tiers (Cat 6 Kaiju, Cat 5 Kaiju, Strongest Cat 4s, Post-Uprising Jaegers) of the verse should be at Island Level+ via scaling to the Drone Jaegers’ beams.

If you open the link to the wiki that the calc links to it literally says the novelization is non-canon. Which, I don't necessarily take wikis as gospel, but does get me to suspect it as a valid source.

It's also a bit of a paradox, isn't it? A small group of human-made machines (The Drone Jaegers, and any Jaeger who may scale to them) is capable of producing more energy than humanity has produced in the last century? Even if you want to say this is because humanity has advanced between PR1 and PR2 to the point that single units can output that much energy, you're scaling it back to the old Pacific Rim creations, so it's 100% an inconsistency.

This is because Raijin is confirmed to be the most dangerous Kaiju so it should probably upscale since the drones are technically Kaiju (they run on Kaiju blue). Additionally, Obsidian Fury is stated to be one of the toughest opponents of the PPDC, and more specifically one of the toughest rogue Jaegers to beat implying superiority over the Drones, which fits with the statement of it being “so powerful its origins are shrouded in secrecy” and being “the deadliest Jaeger to ever walk the Earth” from the Diamond select figure (keep in mind this figure was released in August of 2018, whilst the film released on home releases a month earlier, so both Diamond Select Toys and the intended audience of the toy would know of the Drone Jaeger’s existence.

Can you post the actual links to the online market pages rather than imgur scans? Regardless an action figure's descriptions aren't something I'd consider to be very reliable - definitely not as the primary source of scaling. Throw in the dubious "technically" and this is pretty hard to trust.

Since Obsidian Fury would be more powerful than the Drone Jaegers, its chest beam would be too as both the Drones’ and Obsidian’s chest beams are linked to the power cores of the respective Jaegers (source for second statement), which is supported by a statement from Steven S Deknight (Uprising’s director).

The power cores light up because the beam requires power, which they supply, and the statement where he says "most destructive weapon and ultimately the thing that powers his entire suit" is obviously referring to the fact that they're both found on the chest. This is not implying any kind of universal power system.

The twitter question is a pretty leading one to a maybe rules-breaking extent, one of many going through the twitter account's replies. But the statement pretty obviously outlines that "we made his energy beam a different color to denote that it wasn’t the same as the drones", which is a pretty important piece of evidence against this scaling, given that your claim is they function in an analogous manner.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Something being a greater achievement than something else is not viable grounds for upscaling. The cure for cancer (or if we're sticking to things meant for combat: a really good stealth drone or something) wouldn't upscale from the Tsar Bomba.

I would also ask for evidence of the novelization's canonicity.

The scan also mentions that Newt was exalted at “the power he brought into this world” which heavily implies he’s talking about power. About the novel canonicity, Travis Beacham (writer of the first film) said this:

Spoiler

"Novelizations are routinely derived from early drafts of the script. It’s the only way they can be published in time for the release. The trouble is that of course many things can change in that time, so many film novelizations typically contain certain narrative discrepancies. This novelization is generally in line with our bible, but one shouldn’t feel obligated to accept whatever doesn’t seem to align with the film. If the novel says Raleigh has a sister, you can probably assume he has a sister for as long as that possibility is not pointedly excluded by the expanded universe works subsequent to the fact of the film. But if the novel says the second attack is Hong Kong and the movie says it’s Manila, it must be Manila. The film is the final arbiter of fact."

As the calc itself acknowledges the tsunami may have been the result of the breach, not the Kaiju itself, and could also have happened overtime

Something being an official product isn't evidence of canonicity, it's the bare minimum to even have it on the wiki. I don't think I need to give examples of non-canon official products. And the reasoning that "Legendary oversaw the timeline because they might have gotten it wrong on their own" is similarly conjecture, especially given that this seems to be a very small project. In the credits there is no such hypothetical Legendary overseer credited.

This is fair, but this was more supporting evidence anyway

"Capable of taking attacks" It literally gets an arm ripped off in the first fight and gets tossed aside easily in the second.

With the current ratings however, it would be getting laughably one-shot though considering that its opponent is 6-C and it would only be around High 7-C in durability (given it should be relative to Gipsy Danger and other Mark 3s). We could assume that only Atlas is 6-C, but that wouldn’t really make sense considering the fact that it’s stripped down from its war days, implying that during the first war the PPDC had a Jaeger thousands of times more durable than any other and yet it was still either heavily damaged by the events of the first film or they decided not to use it for some reason.

These are all anti-feats. To my knowledge it's never stated they're notably vulnerable to heat (and they can withstand more heat-based energy attacks from the Jaegers just fine, including the chest beams at the core of this whole argument) and being a certain durability would prevent certain levels of heat from harming you.

It’s fair to say these are anti feats. But by that logic wouldn’t them getting killed by nukes also be an anti feat?

If you open the link to the wiki that the calc links to it literally says the novelization is non-canon. Which, I don't necessarily take wikis as gospel, but does get me to suspect it as a valid source.

Strangely, the wiki also states that the novel is canon except where contradicted by the film/writers in the wikis canon policy page so no clue what’s going on over there. I’d take the word of the filmmakers over the wiki’s anyway.

It's also a bit of a paradox, isn't it? A small group of human-made machines (The Drone Jaegers, and any Jaeger who may scale to them) is capable of producing more energy than humanity has produced in the last century? Even if you want to say this is because humanity has advanced between PR1 and PR2 to the point that single units can output that much energy, you're scaling it back to the old Pacific Rim creations, so it's 100% an inconsistency.

I’m not sure Jaegers would be included in this total though. Same as how we don’t include nuclear weapons or chemical explosives in our yearly totals IRL. They’re weapons, their energy is used purely for attacks or destruction.

Can you post the actual links to the online market pages rather than imgur scans?

Sure:
Raijin Battle Roar: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_rj1_a3
Drone Jaeger Kaiju blue: https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0xf429210d0f619f71eaa34f37a6a9545068ef166b/1842405
Obsidian Fury - Fear the fury: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_osfm2
Obsidian Fury twin chain swords: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_osf_a3
Yes I know they’re NFT hellsites arrrgggg

Regardless an action figure's descriptions aren't something I'd consider to be very reliable - definitely not as the primary source of scaling.

Fair enough.

Throw in the dubious "technically" and this is pretty hard to trust.

Yeah I probably could’ve worded it better. I’d basically say, they are full on kaiju but wearing the Jaegers armour on top of themselves. This can even be seen in BTS material for the film. Though looking at it, it does seem that the chest beam is more of a Jaeger part, so maybe the Raijin stuff isn’t that relevant.

The power cores light up because the beam requires power, which they supply, and the statement where he says "most destructive weapon and ultimately the thing that powers his entire suit" is obviously referring to the fact that they're both found on the chest. This is not implying any kind of universal power system.

Agai, this sounds fair so I won’t argue too much. I will add though, that Hakuja’s armour is stated to be impenetrable so that probably could be used as more evidence for upscaling.

The twitter question is a pretty leading one to a maybe rules-breaking extent, one of many going through the twitter account's replies. But the statement pretty obviously outlines that "we made his energy beam a different color to denote that it wasn’t the same as the drones", which is a pretty important piece of evidence against this scaling, given that your claim is they function in an analogous manner.

I was hesitant to include the Twitter thing, but the fact that there was a lot of other evidence that supported it made me ultimately decide it was good to use.

 

[Armorchompy]

The scan also mentions that Newt was exalted at “the power he brought into this world” which heavily implies he’s talking about power.

I don't really think so, "power" is a lot of things. And there's a simple fact that self-destruction is something that happens once and then the explosive is gone, whereas the Mega-Kaiju was a living being capable of continued activity. If someone said "an assault rifle is more powerful than a petard", they would be right, even though the petard's explosion releases more energy than a single gunshot.

About the novel canonicity, Travis Beacham (writer of the first film) said this:

Spoiler

"Novelizations are routinely derived from early drafts of the script. It’s the only way they can be published in time for the release. The trouble is that of course many things can change in that time, so many film novelizations typically contain certain narrative discrepancies. This novelization is generally in line with our bible, but one shouldn’t feel obligated to accept whatever doesn’t seem to align with the film. If the novel says Raleigh has a sister, you can probably assume he has a sister for as long as that possibility is not pointedly excluded by the expanded universe works subsequent to the fact of the film. But if the novel says the second attack is Hong Kong and the movie says it’s Manila, it must be Manila. The film is the final arbiter of fact."

Sure, that's fair enough.

This is fair, but this was more supporting evidence anyway

Alright

With the current ratings however, it would be getting laughably one-shot though considering that its opponent is 6-C and it would only be around High 7-C in durability (given it should be relative to Gipsy Danger and other Mark 3s). We could assume that only Atlas is 6-C, but that wouldn’t really make sense considering the fact that it’s stripped down from its war days, implying that during the first war the PPDC had a Jaeger thousands of times more durable than any other and yet it was still either heavily damaged by the events of the first film or they decided not to use it for some reason.

Getting maimed is not really an avenue for scaling. The fact the fight doesn't fully play out in a way that would fit the current ratings doesn't change that IMO, fiction doesn't fully conform to our standards - it's not too uncommon for a character who's hopelessly outmatched to not get insta-eviscerated.

There's also the fact that fellow Mk. 3 Gypsy had to be upgraded to stand a chance against the Kaiju in Pacific Rim 1, for an un-upgraded and in fact decommissioned and de-equipped Jaeger to be comparable (even somewhat) to much stronger Kaiju is a bit weird.

It’s fair to say these are anti feats. But by that logic wouldn’t them getting killed by nukes also be an anti feat?

That's what I was suggesting. An anti-feat is evidence of something being beneath a certain rating.

Strangely, the wiki also states that the novel is canon except where contradicted by the film/writers in the wikis canon policy page so no clue what’s going on over there. I’d take the word of the filmmakers over the wiki’s anyway.

Yeah, fair.

I’m not sure Jaegers would be included in this total though. Same as how we don’t include nuclear weapons or chemical explosives in our yearly totals IRL. They’re weapons, their energy is used purely for attacks or destruction.

An explosion isn't storing energy, it's material that upon a chemical reaction unleashes it all immediately, whereas a Jaeger is a piece of machinery powered by a source of energy the same as any other piece of technology, so I would definitely assume they (or rather whatever generators/batteries they may use) count.

Sure:
Raijin Battle Roar: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_rj1_a3
Drone Jaeger Kaiju blue: https://opensea.io/assets/ethereum/0xf429210d0f619f71eaa34f37a6a9545068ef166b/1842405
Obsidian Fury - Fear the fury: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_osfm2
Obsidian Fury twin chain swords: https://marketplace.virtua.com/item-detail/pr_osf_a3
Yes I know they’re NFT hellsites arrrgggg

Honestly i respect not linking to them then lol

But like, I feel like this really is not the most reputable source. NTFs in particular appeal to very stupid people are more about the intrinsic "value" of the ownership rather than whatever they're actually representing so I doubt that much thought was put into the descriptions.

Yeah I probably could’ve worded it better. I’d basically say, they are full on kaiju but wearing the Jaegers armour on top of themselves. This can even be seen in BTS material for the film. Though looking at it, it does seem that the chest beam is more of a Jaeger part, so maybe the Raijin stuff isn’t that relevant.

That's fair, I kinda like, removed Uprising from my memory as much as I could.

Agai, this sounds fair so I won’t argue too much. I will add though, that Hakuja’s armour is stated to be impenetrable so that probably could be used as more evidence for upscaling.

Is the idea like, it's invulnerable to presumably everything including the beams? Does it ever get pierced in the movie, also

I was hesitant to include the Twitter thing, but the fact that there was a lot of other evidence that supported it made me ultimately decide it was good to use.

That's fair, but I think the actual statement is kind of a double edged sword for your argument.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I don't really think so, "power" is a lot of things. And there's a simple fact that self-destruction is something that happens once and then the explosive is gone, whereas the Mega-Kaiju was a living being capable of continued activity. If someone said "an assault rifle is more powerful than a petard", they would be right, even though the petard's explosion releases more energy than a single gunshot.

That’s fair enough and makes sense. I still think Gipsy Danger’s and Avenger’s self destruction should scale though, because the statement already relates to Gipsy Danger and Gipsy Avenger being essentially an upgraded version with two turbines would likely have a more powerful self destruction.

Getting maimed is not really an avenue for scaling. The fact the fight doesn't fully play out in a way that would fit the current ratings doesn't change that IMO, fiction doesn't fully conform to our standards - it's not too uncommon for a character who's hopelessly outmatched to not get insta-eviscerated.

That’s fair, though I would also like to point out that once Atlas Destroyer is given a new arm from Chaos Nemesis (a Mark 4), it is capable of ripping out a chunk of Copperhead’s flesh.

There's also the fact that fellow Mk. 3 Gypsy had to be upgraded to stand a chance against the Kaiju in Pacific Rim 1, for an un-upgraded and in fact decommissioned and de-equipped Jaeger to be comparable (even somewhat) to much stronger Kaiju is a bit weird.

That's what I was suggesting. An anti-feat is evidence of something being beneath a certain rating.

Yeah, fair.

An explosion isn't storing energy, it's material that upon a chemical reaction unleashes it all immediately, whereas a Jaeger is a piece of machinery powered by a source of energy the same as any other piece of technology, so I would definitely assume they (or rather whatever generators/batteries they may use) count.

Honestly i respect not linking to them then lol

But like, I feel like this really is not the most reputable source. NTFs in particular appeal to very stupid people are more about the intrinsic "value" of the ownership rather than whatever they're actually representing so I doubt that much thought was put into the descriptions.

That's fair, I kinda like, removed Uprising from my memory as much as I could.

Is the idea like, it's invulnerable to presumably everything including the beams? Does it ever get pierced in the movie, also

That's fair, but I think the actual statement is kind of a double edged sword for your argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

You didn't reply to the second half, was that on purpose?

 

[1000TonsofFun]

You didn't reply to the second half, was that on purpose?

Sorry about that. My browser must’ve refreshed. Thankfully I copied most of it before posting. Thanks for pointing that out. Here is the rest of what I meant to say.

Getting maimed is not really an avenue for scaling. The fact the fight doesn't fully play out in a way that would fit the current ratings doesn't change that IMO, fiction doesn't fully conform to our standards - it's not too uncommon for a character who's hopelessly outmatched to not get insta-eviscerated.

That’s fair, though I would also like to point out that once Atlas Destroyer is given a new arm from Chaos Nemesis (a Mark 4), it is capable of ripping out a chunk of Copperhead’s flesh. Although I have thought there might be another explanation, that being the Jaegers themselves being upgraded to Uprising era levels. It sounds like headcanon but it would make sense since most if not all of these Jaegers were destroyed by the end of the first movie anyway, so they would already have to be rebuilt. I believe Bracer Phoenix from the second movie is basically this, but I’m not sure. I’d have to check some of the novels.

There's also the fact that fellow Mk. 3 Gypsy had to be upgraded to stand a chance against the Kaiju in Pacific Rim 1, for an un-upgraded and in fact decommissioned and de-equipped Jaeger to be comparable (even somewhat) to much stronger Kaiju is a bit weird.

That’s why I was suggesting an upgrade, but I’m realising it could already be explained by them using newer technologies to rebuild the older mark Jaegers. It explains why Atlas can run on modern day power cells, despite most Jaegers of its time requiring a nuclear reactor (supposedly Raleigh says this in the original film, and I remember hearing someone say something like that but it’s from the wiki so take it with a grain of salt). By that logic same could be true for the kaiju as well, especially considering they are different individuals of the same breed.

That's what I was suggesting. An anti-feat is evidence of something being beneath a certain rating.

Thing is we already know Jaegers as early as Mark 1 hit as hard as a nuclear weapon, so there is clearly another aspect of the nuke that kills the kaiju, rather than just the kinetic component.

An explosion isn't storing energy, it's material that upon a chemical reaction unleashes it all immediately, whereas a Jaeger is a piece of machinery powered by a source of energy the same as any other piece of technology, so I would definitely assume they (or rather whatever generators/batteries they may use) count.

Ok that’s fair.

Honestly i respect not linking to them then lol

But like, I feel like this really is not the most reputable source. NTFs in particular appeal to very stupid people are more about the intrinsic "value" of the ownership rather than whatever they're actually representing so I doubt that much thought was put into the descriptions.

YES!

But yeah, I don’t like NFTs but since they are officially produced by Legendary groan I thought that they might be a useful source of Info. I guess maybe I should just wait for the Mechapedia before going in depth into the scaling.

That's fair, I kinda like, removed Uprising from my memory as much as I could.

Valid, though I think I enjoy more than most people. At least, for what it is.

Is the idea like, it's invulnerable to presumably everything including the beams? Does it ever get pierced in the movie, also

I don’t know honestly, it’s another NFT statement so who knows how reliable it is. I’m pretty sure it never gets pierced in the movie, for what it’s worth, Saber Athena slices it’s underbelly but it’s armour is never penetrated.

That's fair, but I think the actual statement is kind of a double edged sword for your argument.

True. Although I thought it was more stating that the beams were different in type of energy rather than amount of energy.

 

[Armorchompy]

That’s fair, though I would also like to point out that once Atlas Destroyer is given a new arm from Chaos Nemesis (a Mark 4), it is capable of ripping out a chunk of Copperhead’s flesh. Although I have thought there might be another explanation, that being the Jaegers themselves being upgraded to Uprising era levels. It sounds like headcanon but it would make sense since most if not all of these Jaegers were destroyed by the end of the first movie anyway, so they would already have to be rebuilt. I believe Bracer Phoenix from the second movie is basically this, but I’m not sure. I’d have to check some of the novels.

I honestly couldn't say.

That’s why I was suggesting an upgrade, but I’m realising it could already be explained by them using newer technologies to rebuild the older mark Jaegers. It explains why Atlas can run on modern day power cells, despite most Jaegers of its time requiring a nuclear reactor (supposedly Raleigh says this in the original film, and I remember hearing someone say something like that but it’s from the wiki so take it with a grain of salt). By that logic same could be true for the kaiju as well, especially considering they are different individuals of the same breed.

My point was, Gypsy was made stronger than a "normal" Mark 3 by the time of the events of most of the movie. That said I could see the power cell thing just being an inconsistency.

Thing is we already know Jaegers as early as Mark 1 hit as hard as a nuclear weapon, so there is clearly another aspect of the nuke that kills the kaiju, rather than just the kinetic component.

If memory serves, the first Jaeger vs Kaiju fights were pretty stompy in favor of the Jaegers, right? I can see them being somewhat close to a nuke without this invalidating that the first and weakest Kaiju was killed by two.

Valid, though I think I enjoy more than most people. At least, for what it is.

Fair

True. Although I thought it was more stating that the beams were different in type of energy rather than amount of energy.

Probably, but it is still drawing a distinction in how they may work.

 

[sageof8paths]

Correct me i’m wrong, but isn’t gipsy dangers explosion energy blatantly stated to be in the megatons in the movie itself?

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

Correct me i’m wrong, but isn’t gipsy dangers explosion energy blatantly stated to be in the megatons in the movie itself?

No, you probably saw in the film the mention of 1,200,000 tons of TNT, it was referred to by the Nuclear Warhead installed on the Striker Eureka.

 

[sageof8paths]

No, you probably saw in the film the mention of 1,200,000 tons of TNT, it was referred to by the Nuclear Warhead installed on the Striker Eureka.

yeah but wasn’t that supposed/going to be enough to blow up the rim?

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

yeah but wasn’t that supposed/going to be enough to blow up the rim?

I believe so, since the Eureka Striker's nuclear beam had the function of destroying the Rift, but let's remember that to open a breach it is necessary to fold Space-Time with an energy above the advance of Humans in the last 100 years.

Nature and possible vulnerability of Breach

pacificrim.fandom.com

But I haven't seen anything that evidences that the Eureka Striker Bomb would actually do that.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Correct me i’m wrong, but isn’t gipsy dangers explosion energy blatantly stated to be in the megatons in the movie itself?

The nuke on Striker’s back is said to be 1.2 megatons, but even then the actual self destruction is much higher (is discussed more in detail here. Calc was also accepted here at High 6-C+). But Gipsy Danger would scale above that value anyway, as its nuclear vortex could burn through Slattern, whereas Striker’s self destruction could only cause surface burns.

I honestly couldn't say.

I’m starting to think it’s more likely the latter explanation (the one about them being upgraded), considering the Uprising novel mentions that Gipsy Avenger’s rocket punch can destroy older model Jaegers in one hit, yet Obsidian Fury isn’t even visibly damaged by this attack.

My point was, Gypsy was made stronger than a "normal" Mark 3 by the time of the events of most of the movie. That said I could see the power cell thing just being an inconsistency.

I know, I was offering an explanation as to why the Mark 1-4 Jaegers in The Black could fight stronger Post-Uprising Kaiju (ie Copperhead). Sorry if that didn’t come across clearly.

If memory serves, the first Jaeger vs Kaiju fights were pretty stompy in favor of the Jaegers, right? I can see them being somewhat close to a nuke without this invalidating that the first and weakest Kaiju was killed by two.

Yeah I think you’re right there.

Probably, but it is still drawing a distinction in how they may work.

True.

Well it sounds like you disagree with most of this thread (and tbh you’ve kind of convinced me about a lot of these as well). Out of curiosity though, what do you think of the Gipsy Danger and maybe Gipsy Avenger self destruction scaling to 1000x a Breach via the novel statement? I don’t think that there’d be a paradox with the energy that Humanity has produced, as the self destruction is overloading the reactor and completely destroys Gipsy Danger, so Gipsy Danger’s power output wouldn’t scale to this and neither would any other character besides maybe Gipsy Avenger’s self destruct (since Gipsy Avenger is a next gen successor to Gipsy Danger). But even then, I’m not completely sure because Self Destruction is a case by case thing, and there’s nothing really saying that Gipsy Avenger’s self destruction is more powerful than Danger’s.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

One question: Couldn't you open an official profile here on the Obsidian Fury Wiki? Since it has some good information for a dedicated profile.

we currently have the Gipsy Danger, Striker Eureka, Cherno Alpha, Crismon typhoon, Gipsy Avenger and Bracer Phoenix.

I’m currently working on one here. It’d probably have to be edited though, since it seems like a lot of this thread might be rejected.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well it sounds like you disagree with most of this thread (and tbh you’ve kind of convinced me about a lot of these as well). Out of curiosity though, what do you think of the Gipsy Danger and maybe Gipsy Avenger self destruction scaling to 1000x a Breach via the novel statement? I don’t think that there’d be a paradox with the energy that Humanity has produced, as the self destruction is overloading the reactor and completely destroys Gipsy Danger, so Gipsy Danger’s power output wouldn’t scale to this and neither would any other character besides maybe Gipsy Avenger’s self destruct (since Gipsy Avenger is a next gen successor to Gipsy Danger). But even then, I’m not completely sure because Self Destruction is a case by case thing, and there’s nothing really saying that Gipsy Avenger’s self destruction is more powerful than Danger’s.

I think Danger should at least scale if there aren't issues with the statement. As for Avenger I don't know but I'd assume a possibly rating at least to be fine

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

I’m currently working on one here. It’d probably have to be edited though, since it seems like a lot of this thread might be rejected.

Yes, I have seen your Sandbox, now I just have to wait for the opinion of other Administrators for the topic to be approved. (Currently two people agreed with the arguments, I know they are not Administrators).

 

[sageof8paths]

to me it seems a bit dodgy that it’s 1.2 megatons has any relevance in the movie but you're proposing high 6A stuff. the movie and novel don’t seem to be 1:1. It doesn’t seem like the creative team behind the movie intended for them to be that strong at least in the first movie, my memory on uprising isn’t the best.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

to me it seems a bit dodgy that it’s 1.2 megatons has any relevance in the movie but you're proposing high 6A stuff. the movie and novel don’t seem to be 1:1. It doesn’t seem like the creative team behind the movie intended for them to be that strong at least in the first movie, my memory on uprising isn’t the best.

1.2 megatons is only for the nuke on Striker’s back though. Even just using what the film shows us, Striker’s self destruction was way higher. Couple that with the fact that Jaegers like non nuclear Jaegers like Atlas Destroyer can self destruct without a nuclear weapon and it suggests that most of the blast’s energy came from Striker’s power core. And anyway, this would only scale to Gipsy Danger’s self destruction, at least for the first movie.

 

[Armorchompy]

Eh, what would the point of the nuke be then, though?

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Eh, what would the point of the nuke be then, though?

To drop it into the Breach. I don’t think they intended to sacrifice Striker given how the nuke’s release was apparently jammed, what it sounds like was that they intended to ride Striker into the Breach and then detonate the Nuke whilst inside the Anteverse which is supported by the previously posted report about the nature of the Breach.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, I'll just abstain from the self-destruct thing ig

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I dunno, I'll just abstain from the self-destruct thing ig

Shall I put you as neutral?

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with the rest, for that just don't put me as a vote

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I disagree with the rest, for that just don't put me as a vote

Ok

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I disagree with the rest, for that just don't put me as a vote

Bump. Also edited the Upgrade section of the OP if you would like to take a look.

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

Bump.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Bump

 

[Felipe_Walker16]

Bump.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Bump

 

[Crabwhale]

Put me as down in agreement with Armor.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

Put me as down in agreement with Armor.

Ok. Do you have any thoughts on the self-destruction scaling or the original movie character upgrade sections?

 

[Crabwhale]

I think scaling Avenger to Danger in terms of self-destruction potency is fine, but the actual value is wonky. We don't know that the self-destruct alone caused the energy flare up. In fact, I think it's far more likely to be the cascading collapse of space-time around the Breach causing it. The nuke just destabilized the delicate balance needed to maintain the passage.

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I think scaling Avenger to Danger in terms of self-destruction potency is fine, but the actual value is wonky. We don't know that the self-destruct alone caused the energy flare up. In fact, I think it's far more likely to be the cascading collapse of space-time around the Breach causing it. The nuke just destabilized the delicate balance needed to maintain the passage.

Ok. I will put you as disagree then.

 

[FinePoint]

For the most part I agree with Armorchompy, except that I think the self-destruction scaling is probably fine, so long as the value itself is accurate (that's a calc group thing, not for me to say.)

Also, I don't think dying to a nuclear bomb is really a durability anti-feat in itself since nuclear bombs have a lot of other mechanics in play other than just pure force (heat, radiation.)

The upgrade to the original cast is probably fine too.