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Overwatch Revisions

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EsotericDichotomy

EsotericDichotomy

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Hello again VsBattles,

I want to apologize for again being a problem child, but it has come to my attention that the speeds of the characters from Overwatch: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Overwatch

There are a few points I would like to address:

Travel Speed, Combat/Reaction Speed, Lifting Strength.

Travel Speed:

The travel speed for Overwatch characters is obtained from this thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Overwatch_Running_Speeds

The major assumption of this thread is that Lucio's sonic weapon actually fires sound waves traveling at the speed of sound. However upon inspection: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F1R6l8E6xw) One can see that his sonic weapon is shooting projectiles that do not mimic real life sound. Much like the ruling on lightning in fictional verses, theses sonic projectiles should not be scaled to real life sonic waves, because they do not look, or effect things like sound would.

This thread assumes that Lucio's sonic waves are at the speed of sound, then proceeds to scale every Overwatch character to subsonic speeds that do not fit with the rest of the verse. In the Overwatch short: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqnKB22pOC0, it can be seen that the heroes and villains do not have movements speeds that are x10 that of regular humans.

[Edit] The x10 gameplay speed reduction to make the game playable theory, falls apart when applied to character jumping and falling. They do not hang in the air or float down, like they would it speed were slowed down by a factor of 10.

I recommend that the original speeds obtained from game mechanic observation should be used as their travel speeds. This would be more consistent with their universe and more true to the setting.

Combat/Reaction Speed:

The feat used for these statistics can be found here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Austrian-Man-Meat/Overwatch:_Soldier_76_Speed_Calculatio

I do not argue the math of this calculation, but rather it's application. It seems to be an outlier used for dramatic effect rather than a quantifiable feat. If Soldier 76 actually rushes and moves that girl out of the way of the blast in such a small timeframe, he and she both must have superhuman durability to withstand the G-Forces imposed by stationary to mach 90 movement. If this were the case, that weapon would actually be less harmful to them than their reactions display. [Edit] (Several people have commented that most fictions do not take into consideration the G-Forces of their feats. This is a bit tricky because it then forces us to allow certain parts of real world physics and ignore others. And opens the door for fan speculation that is based on overt biases in favor of getting high numbers, rather than conclusions that are realistic for the setting.) The conclusion is that the Mach 90 number, while obtained through sound mathematics, is invalid because it is not consistent with the setting.

I recommend their reaction speeds be set to Peak Human, or Superhuman until a proper feat is analyzed and quantified. [Edit] Maybe for some characters Supersonic, they are superheroes basically right?

[Edit] I think some reaction speed feats are the Aim Dodging Tracer does in "Alive", and some Genji reaction speed feat that is floating around out there.

Lifting Strength:

Tracer and Widowmaker are both of lithe build and should not have a lifting strength higher than that of Zarya who has a tattoo of her impressive lifting strength. The Strength feat given to both Widowmaker and Tracer comes from the erroneous assumption that Widowmaker was able to physically wrestle with Winston, a male gorilla. In fact, Widowmaker was only able to engage with him, using her agility and evasiveness. This video again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqnKB22pOC0 can show that she never wrestles with him as an equal in physical terms.

This would also affect the character's Attack Potency.

I recommend looking at each character scaled from this feat and recategorizing them accordingly.

-Eso
 
"he and she both must have superhuman durability to withstand the G-Forces imposed by stationary to mach 90 movement"

Fiction is hardly realistic and consistent when it comes to this stuff so I do not believe this is a valid argument. I don't know enough about Overwatch to comment on the rest.
 
I have some trouble allowing real-world calculations for the speed of detonation from a grenade, but not allowing the real-world calculations for a living being's durability from moving at high speeds. Where is the line drawn that we accept real-world application of physics and where we handwave it? @.@

That said, I do think we should take into consideration the feat being used for dramatic effect. There is a delay to give the audience some concern whether the hero could save the civilian in time. But the calculations being raw math, do not always take into consideration such cinematic, dramatic, and often exaggerated instances.
 
>it can be seen that the heroes and villains do not have movements speeds that are x10 that of regular humans.

Just because characters do not appear to be that fast does not mean they arent, otherwise there would be very few characters rated above Superhuman speed.

>he and she both must have superhuman durability to withstand the G-Forces imposed by stationary to mach 90 movement

Like Prom said this is hardly a valid argument due to this being fiction. G-force is almost never taken into consideration in any work of fiction

>Lifting Strength

...This part I might actually agree with...
 
@Weekly

In this specific instance though, two kids engage in/react to the battle alongside the heroes and villains. It would be unreasonable to assume that these kids are x10 normal human speed being able to keep up with what the superhumans are doing.

As for the G-Force thing, I suppose it is often handwaved. May I ask what you think of it being an outlier used for dramatic effect? It was used to scale across every single Overwatch character, but the other clips and showings do not give the impression of reaction times likes this.
 
Not really, PIS is a thing you know. They wanted Widowmaker to be hit with the gauntlet for dramatic effect, yet 30 seconds earlier she was literally dodging hundreds of bullets casually.

I honestly see no problem with it. It wouldnt make any sense for one character to just be hundreds of times faster than everyone else for no reason.
 
@Weekly

I don't mean the reaction time, in reference to the kids. I more meant the travel speed. The fan calculation takes the speed they are in the game and multiplies it a little over 10 to match the speed of sound. When the characters don't display movements that fast in relation to other normal humans.

As for reaction times, I can understand Widowmaker being punched by the kid as PIS, it just seems so very inconsistent to claim she is capable of reactions at Mach 90 like Soldier 76 is claimed to be, yet can be surprised by a youth. He should be in slow motion if she can react at those speeds.

Also Dodging bullets casually and being Mach 90 are worlds apart. I think it is entirely reasonable to put these characters at Supersonic+ Reactions times... but Mach 90 seems beyond reasonable.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I honestly see no problem with it. It wouldnt make any sense for one character to just be hundreds of times faster than everyone else for no reason.
Click to expand...
That is precisely the point I am attempting to make. The Soldier 76 fan calc, presents an outlier feat that makes Soldier 76 a hundred times faster than anything anyone, (himself included) ever shows again.
 
Correction, they dont appear to. In-game they are slowed down visually so you can actually play the game, if the game showed them moving at the speeds they actually move at it would just be a big incomprehensible blur. This is a very common occurrence in video games you know, where characters only look much slower than they really are.

It's not an outlier because there's nothing in-canon that contradicts him being able to achieve those speeds. For example, Genji has feats that put him at Supersonic to Hypersonic, but just because it doesn't come out to a higher result doesn't mean that everyone else is limited to that one showing, it simply makes that a low-end feat, of which there are many in almost every fiction ever.
 
The Genji feat sounds much more reliable to scale characters off of. Rather than the Soldier 76 fan calc feat which no one seems to replicate ingame or in the videos.

There are a bunch of problems with the "Everything slowed down" approach. Because if the characters jump or fall, they should also descend at a much slower rate since everything including gravity would be slower. Since the characters do not spend 10x as long in the air, it is reasonable to eliminate that theory.
 
No visual form of media is going to truly portray superhuman speeds at all times, as then no one would be able to watch what is happening. Who's going to want to watch a fight scene that's already over before they blinked?

Expecting these characters to always appear to the audience as fast as they are is an entirely unreasonable expectation.

By this logic, almost no one in fiction is higher than Subsonic+.
 
I can agree with the Lifting strength Part, haven't played Overwatch, but watching cinematics, wouldn't be accurate to give Widowmaker the strength of a Gorilla, she is more agility and skill than strength, and gives her that power is missing the point between the characters.

I've heard complains about the Soldiel 76 feat too, and it seems some doubtful, we rather use the reaction speed of Tracer when she reacted to Widow's sniper, or any other where speed of refernce is known.

Not sure about the Lucio part, sound pistol should fire at speed of sound...
 
The sound pistol, shooting at the speed of sound we are familiar with in real life can be judged using the same metric for lightning. And since it doesn't look or effect things like a sound blast would. It can be treated as a normal energy projectile. This lets us use the speed data from the actual game stats, rather than creating a speculative fan calculation that relies only on assumptions. Here are the actual speeds of the characters: https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4ajmq5/hero_movement_speeds_plus_a_few_more/
 
@Ryu A lot of media has showings of character perception at high speeds. Generally through the use of slow-motion. From The Flash to Smallville Superman, to The Toby Mcguire Spiderman, to X-men's Quicksilver, to Avenger's Quicksilver...

Even Anime like Naruto and Bleach have often shown debris hanging in the air as the character's speed along. Dragon Ball Z has its share of character's moving as a blur.

[Edit] Also when slow motion is used, everything tends to be consistent. You do not have characters moving x10 slower to let the audience see what is happening, but have their gravity based descent times remain what they would be had they not been reduced in speed.

But you are very much correct that not all media displays this.

I would much rather focus on the point, that the sound used for Lucio does not look or behave like an actual soundwave. And recommend it be judged like we judge lightning here on the site. This would give us information that is much less speculative and much more hard science on how we determine our character profiles.
 
@Esoteric I didn't said visual media never portrays superhuman speeds. I said portraying superhuman speeds at all times. All the examples you brought up also have examples of those people fighting at perfectly visible speeds.

Also characters as fast as Naruto, Bleach and DBZ if their speeds were to be portrayed accurately wouldn't even be blurs. They'd be completely invisible and each fight would be over before the audience came close to done blinking.

So again using this expectation of fiction to always visually portray superhuman speeds accurately is not reasonable in the slightest. And using this FTL characters will be pretty much nonexistant with Supersonics and above being extremely rare.

I can't judge your other points for the downgrade as I'm not well verses in Overwatch or calcs, but using "we can see them fight" is not an argument that should ever be used for downgrading characters with superhuman speeds.
 
@Ryu A minor correction. I haven't been arguing that "We" the audience can see them fight. But rather that normal humans in their universe can see them and interact with them. People have called it PIS, but from the kids in the Trailer to the Guards in "Alive" it is very apparent that the heroes are faster/agiler than normal humans, but not so much that they are unable to be interacted with.

Do you think there is a way I could word my argument so that It doesn't come across like I am arguing for the Audience perception?
 
Well it's also rather common for superhuman characters to have commentators in the background at far slower speeds able to witness their fights or speak to them while they're battling and such.

It's usually considered PIS. But determining that relies on a case by case basis, which I can't do here since I'm not knowledgable in Overwatch.
 
I can agree with the lifting.


But the rest?

Mostly based on Game Mechanics for a downgrade.


Is you're against Lucio's weapon speed, Ana's bullets have official speed, we can calculate how much they take to hit something, then scale the running speed to that.
 
@Aiden

The reason why I rated her Lifting Strength as such was because of the fact that Widow managed to make Winston hit the ground first despite the fact that as a Gorilla, he would be logically stronger than the average human and he also has a jump pack to further propel him. This is of course, the least contentious and relevant change and I wouldn't mind issuing a downgrade since it wouldn't mean that much in the long run.

As for the others, you're arguing semantics due to the fact that authors and animators generally have no idea what their works are putting their characters at. If we went by what the author thinks half the time, we would have things like Flash being barely FTL when the feats he's showed are well into the trillions of times FTL.

Simply put, authors and animators can't do math and it's our job to do it for them and provide corresponding ratings.
 
Now that I'm thinking in this


What about the High 8-C?


The skyscraper could just be make it collapse, so nothing really on that level.


Junkrat and Roadhog didn't where inside the buildings when they explode.


And Soldier and Reaper did took the full blast of the quarters?
 
Level =/= completly destroy.

He could destroy one of the floor and the rest collapse.


Yeah... But he truly took the full blast?

I mean, he could take part of it. No for nothing they thought he died.
 
@Reppuzan

I guess to narrow my arguments to their cores, would be to say that:

1) Lucio's sound weapon should be treated like Fictional Lightning on this site. Since it looks nor acts like sound actually does. Sound rarely moves things, and even when it does it does tons of internal damage before being strong enough to blast things away.

2) Soldier 76's feat is an outlier that was only there for dramatic effect, not creating calculated stats.
 
1) I already gave my point on that


2) I never fully agree with that feat.

The verse other feats are Subsonic to Hypersonic, having that Mach 90 out of complete context.


Hypersonic reactions/combat for all seems ok.
 
@Aiden

I would be for scaling their speeds to the bullets, if those can be reliably tracked and calculated. I've been told though that some attacks are almost instanteous in the game, unless you mean tracking the speed from cinematics, which while possibly possible, seems really hard to do.
 
@Aiden

To quote OBD on Large Building level:

"The capacity to level anything from a small apartment block upwards to the tallest skyscraper."

@Esoteric

By that logic every feat in fiction is for dramatic effect and we'd all have subsonic characters.

By definition, an outlier is something that contradicts all of the character's other feats. Soldier doesn't have other feats to contradict.
 
Welp, for speed feat we got the Tracer reacting to rifle in Alive; about the Gauntlet, not sure, most likely is that can destroy the base of a skyscraper that could be building to large building, since destroying completely a skyscraper would be MCB, also, weren't a unexperienced child the one who stroke Widow?
 
@Antoniofer

It doesn't change the fact that by definition, leveling a skyscraper is Large Building level. Unfortunately, there's nothing else to reference against except for that one statement.

Perhaps, but how much weaker could the gauntlet be? There's still the fact that she can hurt Winston, who is heavily implied to have taken punches from the original wielder.
 
@Reppuzan

1) I disagree, we have a very specific rule regarding lightning in fiction. Since it is very fast and often used, it can create flawed scaling if we consider all Lightning the same. Case by case must be examined.

I also disagree that we would have only subsonic characters, as many mediums of fiction show super speed with great detail. The use of Slow motion and blurs are often great examples of speed beyond human ability.

2) I don't think it is an outlier for Soldier 76 since as you said, he doesn't have any other cinematic feats to gauge things by. I do however think that feat is an outlier when you attempt to use it to scale every other character in the franchise off of it.

As Antoniofer points out, we can use the Aim Dodging feat, Tracer has from Alive, she reacts quickly to the rifle being shot at her. I also heard there is a Genji feat out there that we could possibly use.
 
@Antoniofer

Not a young child, probably a teenager 13-15 or so. But yes he was unexperienced and the guantlet fell apart shortly after he used it, so it may not have been in optimal condition or her damaged it or something. It may not be usable to compare it to its use at it's height by it's original owner.
 
Reppuzan said:
@Aiden
To quote OBD on Large Building level:

"The capacity to level anything from a small apartment block upwards to the tallest skyscraper."
Click to expand...
Like Ant said, destroy skyscraper is, actually, Low 7-C.

Level it up with that amount neither is an upgrade (That would be pretty outliesh) or just make it collapse, so nothing suggest High 8-C
 
Reppuzan said:
By definition, an outlier is something that contradicts all of the character's other feats. Soldier doesn't have other feats to contradict.
Click to expand...
The fastest character have consistent supersonic to hypersonic feats

The old veteran is Mach 90 in one feat.


Pretty much the definition of outlier.
 
@Aiden

No... pulverizing a skyscraper into dust is Town level. Leveling a skyscraper is the textbook definition of Large Building level.

Said old man led a strike team to overcome thousands upon thousands of robots equipped with the best military technology available, including all a manner of explosives and is likely to have dodged all of them given that he did not get that scar until he was at the epicenter of an explosion that leveled a building at least as large as the United Nations.

@Esoteric

Compare author statement to actual math. We cannot rely only on narration and visual representation to determine speed. Just because they don't look like they're moving that fast doesn't mean they aren't. We'd also have subsonic Star Wars characters simply because the blaster rounds don't look like they're moving that fast.
 
@Reppuza

1) I am unsure if the time scale is affected by relativity and time dilation and that funny stuff. Wouldn't moving faster and faster to light Speed slow down the clock so that all of that is possible? I don't know the science very well but I heard it somewhere.

2) Blasters are subsonic. Star Wars is set in real time for the movies. A Blaster Bolt moving at (I think Mythbusters calculated 130-135 mph) will still nail a human being since Human reaction time is slow. It is also why Jedi who are incredibly faster than base humans even without force augmentation, can almost effortlessly block the bolts.
 
@Esoteric

Fiction doesn't take relativity at FTL speeds into account unless it's convenient for the plot. By your logic, we'd downgrade virtually every Justice League Powerhouse to below FTL simply because the author says so in spite of the feats presented. It would also be impossible for any character to be FTL.

Mythbuster's calcs don't supersede our calcs and statements. I currently cannot recall where exactly lightspeed Blaster bolts comes from, but given that we have an Admin who particularly enjoys the series and supervised those revisions, I heavily doubt they're unjustified. There are also numerous statements of Jedi moving at lightspeed.

On a similar note, we can't use the fact that firearms are dangerous to these characters to downgrade them because numerous characters that utilize firearms are way faster than whatever firearms we have in real-life. For example, The God Emperor of Mankind utilizes a kinetic round dependent firearm, but has FTL+ Movement Speed and Massively FTL+ Reactions and Combat Speed.
 
Dude, I made the calc, I know what I'm saying.


Badass or not, that doesn't gave him "Anti Outlier Armor". Outlier is Outlier.
 
You've made good points.

1) I suppose I do have a bias towards realism rather than extreme fantasy. I'd like to think that Flash Feat though, if not others, actually did take into consideration the slowing down of time. It's a personal bias, but it feels really awkward to claim the author would be so bad at math, when there are actual scientific theories that could make what they said valid.

I'm also not particularly fond of most characters being FTL+ just because of scaling. But here on the wiki, scaling is heavily used, so I will not argue that.

2) I'm not sure fans of series can always remain impartial. Some people are better at it than others. but someone being particularly interested in a series does not make them more credible. That said, I can believe Jedi, using force augmentation, moving at wicked fast speeds.

3) I also agree that in fiction many times firearms and forces and effects do not match our own. It would be poor to scale an FTL character to the speed of a Glock's Muzzle velocity. But by the same token, that is exactly what I am arguing here. We shouldn't scale the heroes of Overwatch, under the assumption that the Sonic Projectiles Lucio shoots are based in our reality. The argument that the gameplay is slowed down for us to watch, falls apart when you look at jumping and falling. While it isn't precise to real life, it is definitely not 10x slower than realtime. Thus the characters movements speed cannot be 10x slower than realtime either. I really believe it would be much more valid to use the calculated movement rates of the game, that the reddit user (and others confirmed) as they are unmodified as they present the most narratively consistent versions of the characters.
 
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