OPM Saitama Multiplier

[MrTayman616]

It's been accepted that Saitama is growing enough to defeat himself with one punch each day. He was able to one shot himself of a yesterday. This multiplier is an addition to it.

In his fight against Garou, who was completely copying Saitama's own stats, Saitama had outgrown Garou who was copying him and was able to defeat him.

We were given a graph about their growth. This graph is accepted as a multiplier and is already in their profiles.

In this fight, when Saitama was at least two times stronger than Garou, Garou stated that Saitama hadn't grown enough to one shot him yet. Not just that but Saitama doubles his attack power with Garou's martial art (Which is also an accepted value and in profiles)

Garou was copying Saitama's stats as well in the entire fight there, so the durability of the body is always the same as Saitama before he outgrows him again. Same situation with the VGS where Saitama one shots a yesterday version of him.

We have a stated multiplier and stated incapability of one shotting. While Saitama is shown to one shot himself from yesterday. Both situations are completely the same, Saitama being able to one shot Saitama or not. (VGS Saitama with his yesterday stats and Garou who's literally a version of himself of an instant before.)

Saitama grows more than the difference here in a day, as he's stated to be not able to one shot a Saitama who's 2x weaker (even with a martial art that doubles the damage), while Saitama after growing a day is stated to be able to do it.

Saitama is stated to grow enough to one shot himself in a day while he's stated to not grow enough to one shot himself at this moment.

Saitama should get at least 2x stronger a day as he's capable of one shotting himself.
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- Saitama has broken his limiter 1.5 year ago, if he grows two times a day, which makes it 2^548 times stronger, it would be immensely above his current value which he has no feat of.

= There is no reason to believe Saitama's growth rate was instantly 2x a day the moment he broke his limiter. As Garou, who has broken his limiter, has a slower growth than Saitama. Not just that but Garou himself stated his acceleration was getting faster and faster, we also see the difference of his growth by his feats. It's valid that the growth rate of Saitama when he broke his limiter and current Saitama wouldn't be the same. We don't know what his growth rate was the moment he broke his limiter. The earliest we know he grows this much in a day is when VGS happened, which is after Boros fight (around 20-40 days ago). This value only applies for VGS and after. So the multiplier only affects Saitama after he fights against Garou (which is around 1-2 weeks ago) as VGS Saitama is vastly weaker than the Saitama from Monster HQ arc.

- The consistency

= Everything is consistent as far as i'm aware of. We do know Saitama is growing everyday enough to one shot himself and that he can reach any finite level of power (accepted in the profiles as well). His current value 5.6394e+63 Joules / 2^40 (VGS) is 5.12900442e51 Joules which is still immensely stronger than everyone else in the series. The statements are reliable are doesn't cause inconsistency either.

- This value is high

= Any value would be high no matter the case because the feat itself is insane, capable of one shotting himself each day. And this doesn't make this value any less meaningful as it is consistent with the verse and statements are clear in this case. It's not like this is wrong or anything as well. Saitama and Garou has removed their limiter and can reach any finite level of power over time. We also know they can grow tiers above their current level as well(Garou is shown to do it many times).
----

Result

It's the same as this thread. Accepted multipliers are here. One is stated to grow enough to one shot himself while the other one is stated to not grow enough.

Post-Balding Saitama gets 2^7 to 2^14 to his current AP value (will check later for a clear value for how many days ), Same for his durability and lifting strength (Accepted here). (Or at least possibly?)

• Agree:
• Neutral:
• Disagree:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still iffy on the exact proposal.

 

[Damage3245]

Not just that but Saitama doubles his attack power with Garou's martial art (Which is also an accepted value and in profiles)

Garou's martial arts doesn't double his own Attack Potency; it's about using the opponent's strength against them by attacking them at the right moment, making a counter-blow more devastating than just a regular hit.

 

[MrTayman616]

Garou's martial arts doesn't double his own Attack Potency; it's about using the opponent's strength against them by attacking them at the right moment, making a counter-blow more devastating than just a regular hit.

Checked rn. Looks like profile version has viz version. I remember it was saying double the damage though.

Not that it makes a difference i guess? Since Garou(Saitama) AP + Saitama AP is still the same. Above 2x since the moment he uses it is here.

 

[MrTayman616]

I think it's the same as this thread though.

Accepted multipliers are here. One is stated to grow enough to one shot himself while the other one is stated to not grow enough.

 

[Kachon123]

A better approach would be to calculate the exact power difference between Saitama and Garou after Garou copies Saitama’s abilities. This can be done in a similar way to how @Qawsedf234 found the accepted power multipliers for their accelerated development. Once that gap is calculated, we can apply it repeatedly—since it’s already accepted that Saitama is strong enough to one-shot the version of himself from just a day earlier

 

[DavidTPPM]

I have few small-ish issues.

In this fight, when Saitama was at least two times stronger than Garou, Garou stated that Saitama hadn't grown enough to one shot him yet. Not just that but Saitama doubles his attack power with Garou's martial art (Which is also an accepted value and in profiles)

One shotting is extremely context specific. It depends on not just power but the body part that's hit, angle at which it's hit, area of the attack, and movements of the targets. For example, even the most rookie boxers are taught to move along with the opponents punch to reduce the amount of damage they take.

So simply getting hit by 2x your power and not getting one shotted or damaged doesn't necessarily mean your durability or endurance is that high.

Saitama grows more than the difference here in a day, as he's stated to be not able to one shot a Saitama who's 2x weaker (even with a martial art that doubles the damage), while Saitama after growing a day is stated to be able to do it.

Saitama is stated to grow enough to one shot himself in a day while he's stated to not grow enough to one shot himself at this moment.

Saitama should get at least 2x stronger a day as he's capable of one shotting himself.

While I agree with this in the same way that I agree a one shot should generally be around 8x gap like the wiki says, I don't think this really works with rules for multipliers. It's in a weird gray area where it's not directly against rules and hides as a small 2x amp but in practice it achieves the same thing as calc stacking and effectively works as an over a million times multiplier (with bigger multipliers needing more evidence than lower ones)

This would very likely cause a ripple effect where many series with a canon multiplier would just find a way to equate that to a one shot gap, and then stack this multiplier forever, creating the same stat inflation issue as calc stacking does with long running series.

- The consistency

= Everything is consistent as far as i'm aware of.

There is one huge inconsistency actually. And it's actually Saitamas growth against Garou. In that fight it's stated that Saitama was experiencing an exponential growth in power as a result of his unprecedented emotional surge.
Meaning his power is only growing at an exponential rate when he experienced a high emotional outburst, not passively. And a 2x per day growth is exactly that - exponential growth. So you're basically saying his power grow is exponential while the manga is saying his power only began to grow exponentially as a result of his unprecedented emotional state.

 

[MrTayman616]

One shotting is extremely context specific. It depends on not just power but the body part that's hit, angle at which it's hit, area of the attack, and movements of the targets. For example, even the most rookie boxers are taught to move along with the opponents punch to reduce the amount of damage they take.

So simply getting hit by 2x your power and not getting one shotted or damaged doesn't necessarily mean your durability or endurance is that high.

Except in this case, Both opponents are Saitama (Garou and VGS) and Saitama is actually trying his best against Garou. Saitama also hit him many times, to many parts of his body. So it doesn't matter in this case. (If anything, Saitama against Garou would have higher change of one shotting because of martial art usage etc. but isn't the case here.)

Also this isn't the case because of saying "he one shotted" but that it's literally stated he's not at the level of one shotting yet.

While I agree with this in the same way that I agree a one shot should generally be around 8x gap like the wiki says, I don't think this really works with rules for multipliers. It's in a weird gray area where it's not directly against rules and hides as a small 2x amp but in practice it achieves the same thing as calc stacking and effectively works as an over a million times multiplier (with bigger multipliers needing more evidence than lower ones)

This would very likely cause a ripple effect where many series with a canon multiplier would just find a way to equate that to a one shot gap, and then stack this multiplier forever, creating the same stat inflation issue as calc stacking does with long running series.

Except, I'm not creating a one shot value for the verse. The thing is that it only applies to Saitama because of Garou fight and VGS, where both enemies are Saitama and cause of losing is growth which has statements of one shot etc.

This is a very rare case where Saitama fights against enemies that are both Saitama, has one shot statements, growth statements, one shotting because of that growth and growth panel etc etc. (Garou's ability help here)

Also what you said would mostly apply to those situations as well.

One shotting is extremely context specific. It depends on not just power but the body part that's hit, angle at which it's hit, area of the attack, and movements of the targets. For example, even the most rookie boxers are taught to move along with the opponents punch to reduce the amount of damage they take.

So simply getting hit by 2x your power and not getting one shotted or damaged doesn't necessarily mean your durability or endurance is that high.

There is one huge inconsistency actually. And it's actually Saitamas growth against Garou. In that fight it's stated that Saitama was experiencing an exponential growth in power as a result of his unprecedented emotional surge.
Meaning his power is only growing at an exponential rate when he experienced a high emotional outburst, not passively. And a 2x per day growth is exactly that - exponential growth. So you're basically saying his power grow is exponential while the manga is saying his power only began to grow exponentially as a result of his unprecedented emotional state.

Saitama's growth rate isn't just 2x and more everyday but 2x and more after VGS. It's impossible for me to say how fast his growth rate gets faster (like when it'd be 3x etc.). So the value that fits VGS and Garou fight is the lowest number that can fit. So it's not exponential, because the rate is getting faster but the value at VGS is the least we know and applicable one.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Except in this case, Both opponents are Saitama (Garou and VGS) and Saitama is actually trying his best against Garou. Saitama also hit him many times, to many parts of his body. So it doesn't matter in this case. (If anything, Saitama against Garou would have higher change of one shotting because of martial art usage etc. but isn't the case here.)

That doesn't actually address what I said in any way. Idk, you just talked about a different topic here or something.

Except, I'm not creating a one shot value for the verse. The thing is that it only applies to Saitama because of Garou fight and VGS, where both enemies are Saitama and cause of losing is growth which has statements of one shot etc.

It doesn't matter whether it's for a single character or a whole verse, that has no impact on issues I pointed out.

This is a very rare case where Saitama fights against enemies that are both Saitama, has one shot statements, growth statements, and growth panel etc etc. (Garou's ability help here)

It's really not rare at all. Characters fighting someone equal or nearly equal to them is extremely common and is functionally the same as Saitama "fighting himself" here.
And having "one shot statements" is not only not rare but isn't even necessary as that can and is often shown through actual on screen feats instead.

Also what you said would mostly apply to those situations as well.

?

Saitama's growth rate isn't just 2x and more everyday but 2x and more after VGS. It's impossible for me to say how fast his growth rate gets faster (like when it'd be 3x etc.). So the value that fits VGS and Garou fight is the lowest number that can fit. So it's not exponential, because the rate is getting faster but the value at VGS is the least we know and applicable one.

That doesn't matter. Exponential growth is by definition growing at a rate proportional to its current value. So any rate directly proportional to his current strength would be exponential which we canonically know it isn't.

Meaning either we don't have a way to use it as a multiplier, or it's exponential and contradicts the manga.

 

[MrTayman616]

That doesn't actually address what I said in any way. Idk, you just talked about a different topic here or something.

huh? you talked about where it hits, area of the attack, and movements of the targets etc. Saitama has been trying more against Garou, using martial arts etc. His hits would have more one shotting possibility than VGS.

Also it's not a case of watching someone one shot but there is a statement of incapability of one shotting because of not growing enough which is why it's usable.

It doesn't matter whether it's for a single character or a whole verse, that has no impact on issues I pointed out.

It's really not rare at all. Characters fighting someone equal or nearly equal to them is extremely common and is functionally the same as Saitama "fighting himself" here.
And having "one shot statements" is not only not rare but isn't even necessary as that can and is often shown through actual on screen feats instead.

Characters fighting someone equal or nearly equal, we'd have no way of knowing how close the values are, how their ap relates to their durability etc etc. there are so many factor to count. We can't simply say they are equal in power = they are equal in durability and things like that

Not in this case where we know how Garou's copy works. Both characters aren't just relative to Saitama, their entire stats are based on him. Not a case of two random dude having relative power.

That doesn't matter. Exponential growth is by definition growing at a rate proportional to its current value. So any rate directly proportional to his current strength would be exponential which we canonically know it isn't.

Exponential growth is 2^x etc. 2 isn't changable. But this case does, which makes it =/= exponential. Let's say 10 days later, rather than 2^10, it's more than 2^10 which isn't a case of exponential growth.

 

[Qawsedf234]

which makes it =/= exponential.

Mathematically exponential growth is f(x) = a(1 + r)^X which when broken down is the following:

• a = initial amount
• r = growth rate
• X = number of time intervals

It quite literally is exponential growth. Here's a graph site where you can copy and paste the above and get a value. Saitama doubling like that over a day is exponential, because it's not increasing by a defined numerical amount. Like the example you used (2^x) is literally what Wikipedia uses as an example of this concept.

For the thread, I still disagree with the 2x multiplier for the reasons I laid out here

 

[FinePoint]

It's also canon that Saitama grows in response to challenge, and we see different rates of growth at different points to accentuate this.

Therefore, I think it would be irresponsible of us to apply any solid mathematical multiplier like this, which would functionally cause Saitama to grow at least one billion times stronger every month, which we definitely don't see under normal circumstances for him, and would quickly cause his supposed power to dramatically outpace any showcased feat, making it a NLF in my book.

That he just grows vaguely stronger every day is far fairer to claim.

 

[Damage3245]

That he just grows vaguely stronger every day is far fairer to claim.

Yeah, this seems best to me.

 

[MrTayman616]

It's also canon that Saitama grows in response to challenge, and we see different rates of growth at different points to accentuate this.

It wouldn't affect this though, as Saitama always lack challenge. And if anything, those emotional states just makes it faster, no? why would it affect a casual growth.

Therefore, I think it would be irresponsible of us to apply any solid mathematical multiplier like this, which would functionally cause Saitama to grow at least one billion times stronger every month, which we definitely don't see under normal circumstances for him, and would quickly cause his supposed power to dramatically outpace any showcased feat, making it a NLF in my book.

He shows the feat of one shotting himself in a day of growth. within the time of VGS. he should grow faster in the current time.

Garou's feats of growth should be included as well(since he also broke his limiter and has a slower rate than Saitama)

Mathematically exponential growth is f(x) = a(1 + r)^X which when broken down is the following:

• a = initial amount
• r = growth rate
• X = number of time intervals

It quite literally is exponential growth. Here's a graph site where you can copy and paste the above and get a value. Saitama doubling like that over a day is exponential, because it's not increasing by a defined numerical amount. Like the example you used (2^x) is literally what Wikipedia uses as an example of this concept

2^x is exponential. But not if "2" is also getting higher if irrc.
(maybe i'm wrong though). gotta check.

For the thread, I still disagree with the 2x multiplier for the reasons I laid out here

I don't get the first and third one.

Garou's acceleration is shown to get faster, not just that but his growth was slower than Saitama who broke his limiter as well. Saitama at the moment when he broke his limiter shouldn't have a equal daily growth to his current or VGS self.

The third one, everything is based on in universe statements, no? The graph, martial art, one shot statements based on growth, Garou's copy statements etc.

Saitama's growth in a day at the moment of VGS > Saitama's growth(the difference) while fighting Garou

 

[FinePoint]

He shows the feat of one shotting himself in a day of growth. within the time of VGS. he should grow faster in the current time.

He hasn't shown that this is always the exact rate he grows, though.
For all we know that was a particularly growthful day for him.

 

[MrTayman616]

He hasn't shown that this is always the exact rate he grows, though.
For all we know that was a particularly growthful day for him.

We saw from Garou, who broke his limiter, that the acceleration gets faster. Should be the same for Saitama who broke his limiter. Current Saitama should have a faster rate than VGS Saitama.

Also, he was seemingly just chilling at home that day(VGS).

 

[FinePoint]

We saw from Garou, who broke his limiter, that the acceleration gets faster. Should be the same for Saitama who broke his limiter. Current Saitama should have a faster rate than VGS Saitama.

Also, he was seemingly just chilling at home that day(VGS).

We saw that it gets faster when you're constantly pushing yourself.

We saw the opposite for the day-to-day rate.

I think it said (paraphrasing) that Saitama had been stagnating in power before fighting Awakened Garou.

 

[MrTayman616]

We saw that it gets faster when you're constantly pushing yourself.

We saw the opposite for the day-to-day rate.

I think it said (paraphrasing) that Saitama had been stagnating in power before fighting Awakened Garou.

Oh, no. Saitama has always been growing.

It just went unnoticed by people because of not having enemy on a similar level. Even him. But it is stated that he continued to grow.

Not sure what you mean by "opposite" for day-to-day rate though.

Not just that, like Garou against Darkshine was growing slower than when he fought against Platinum Sperm. Even though Garou was pushing himself more against Darkshine etc.

 

[FinePoint]

Oh, no. Saitama has always been growing.

It just went unnoticed by people because of not having enemy on a similar level. Even him. But it is stated that he continued to grow.

Not sure what you mean by "opposite" for day-to-day rate though.

Not just that, like Garou against Darkshine was growing slower than when he fought against Platinum Sperm. Even though Garou was pushing himself more against Darkshine etc.

I was just misremembering that panel, my apologies. Thank you for posting it again.

Still, I think this supports the idea that his rate of growth is fluid, rather than always at least 2x and increasing.

If emotions can speed it up, presumably they can slow it down too.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I also still disagree with giving Saitama an exact multiplier for this.

 

[MrTayman616]

I was just misremembering that panel, my apologies. Thank you for posting it again.

Still, I think this supports the idea that his rate of growth is fluid, rather than always at least 2x and increasing.

If emotions can speed it up, presumably they can slow it down too.

Emotions makes it exponential, they affect the rate. Not simple emotions though, big (couldn't think of a word, don't laugh :d) emotions. Not slower though.

VGS moment, a casual day where he chills at home.

 

[MrTayman616]

I also still disagree with giving Saitama an exact multiplier for this.

Could you tell why please? (hard to check on phone, sry for asking much)

 

[FinePoint]

Emotions makes it exponential, they affect the rate. Not simple emotions though, big (couldn't think of a word, don't laugh :d) emotions. Not slower though.

VGS moment, a casual day where he chills at home.

To be fair, even on the days he saves the world he views them as casual. I don't know if something else happened that day which triggered more growth than usually.

Ultimately, though, this is simply a faulty generalization fallacy. Or, if you're into statistics, the further you extrapolate from existing data points the less confident we become in those extrapolations.

We have evidence that in this instance he grew strong enough to one-shot himself from the previous day.
We do not have evidence that he grew at the same rate every day before this.
We do not have evidence that he grew at the same rate every day after this.

How do you know his growth didn't slow down?

Even if we had a lot of data points, we wouldn't be confident extrapolating beyond that data too far.
Yet in this case we have just a few examples, so we definitely can't extrapolate very far in good faith.

 

[Kachon123]

How do you know his growth didn't slow down?

That sort of defeats the purpose of the entire messaging of the story, as well as the mechanics of The Limiter. Saitama has also said to become a better version of himself each day. He's only going o get better with time, not worse.

 

[FinePoint]

That sort of defeats the purpose of the entire messaging of the story, as well as the mechanics of The Limiter. Saitama has also said to become a better version of himself each day. He's only going o get better with time, not worse.

I never said he didn't grow stronger/better each day.

I said we don't know if he did so at the same rate every day.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Could you tell why please? (hard to check on phone, sry for asking much)

I guess for the reasons everyone else have said. We just aren't told how much stronger Saitama gets every day, and it kind of contradicts the Cosmic Garo fight for him to get exponentially stronger (he'd also probably be somewhere very high into Tier 3 by now with just this exponential, daily growth alone if it was a thing, which we have no reason to assume).

 

[Kachon123]

I never said he didn't grow stronger/better each day.

I said we don't know if he did so at the same rate every day.

No, I know. Saitama's rate of growth also falls under that, as it has been stated to have been growing day by day as well.

 

[FinePoint]

No, I know. Saitama's rate of growth also falls under that, as it has been stated to have been growing day by day as well.

You do not.

It says that his rate of growth (which had gone unnoticed) soared due to his emotions.

That can be true whether or not it was consistent before.

 

[Kachon123]

It says that his rate of growth (which had gone unnoticed) soared due to his emotions.

That can be true whether or not it was consistent before.

That very clearly points to the fact that even if it wasn't soaring exponentially, it was still growing, just no one was able to notice it due to Saitama being too powerful to begin with.

 

[MrTayman616]

I guess for the reasons everyone else have said. We just aren't told how much stronger Saitama gets every day, and it kind of contradicts the Cosmic Garo fight for him to get exponentially stronger (he'd also probably be somewhere very high into Tier 3 by now with just this exponential, daily growth alone if it was a thing, which we have no reason to assume).

Not sure if it cotradicts it. Also well, He'd be like, galaxy level, or somewhere above but very near to baseline 3-B. Which we have many reasons to assume.

 

[FinePoint]

That very clearly points to the fact that even if it wasn't soaring exponentially, it was still growing, just no one was able to notice it due to Saitama being too powerful to begin with.

Here's the quote:

"His rate of growth, which had gone unnoticed by anyone since there was nobody remotely on part with his strength... Suddenly began to soar exponentially... Due to an upsurge of emotion like none he had ever experienced."

Please point to me where it says his rate of growth had been increasing nonstop before this.

 

[MrTayman616]

You do not.

It says that his rate of growth (which had gone unnoticed) soared due to his emotions.

That can be true whether or not it was consistent before.

There is no reason to assume his growth would get slower daily or always be inconsistant though. It'd get faster over time if anything based on what we know. Like how it was for Garou (all his growth feats should be included to Saitama's case as we know he grows slower than him.)

 

[FinePoint]

There is no reason to assume his growth would get slower daily or always be inconsistant though. It'd get faster over time if anything based on what we know. Lime how it was for Garou (all his growth feats should be included to Saitama's case as we know he grows slower than him.)

We have no reason to assume the opposite either.

If you want to use Garou as a reference, I'm sure his exact rate fluctuates a lot too.

I mean, we could technically check, since we have actual benchmarks for him at different times.

 

[Kachon123]

Please point to me where it says his rate of growth had been increasing nonstop before this.

"His rate of growth, which had gone unnoticed"

Tell me, FinePoint, what was being unnoticed? The fact that Saitama was growing each day? That's false because Genos himself noticed that through the VGS.

Then what else would have been going unnoticed? Well context tells us, that it was the increase in the amount he was growing each day that was going unnoticed.

 

[FinePoint]

"His rate of growth, which had gone unnoticed"

Tell me, FinePoint, what was being unnoticed? The fact that Saitama was growing each day? That's false because Genos himself noticed that through the VGS.1

Then what else would have been going unnoticed? Well context tells us, that it was the increase in the amount he was growing each day that was going unnoticed.

The rate at which he was growing was unnoticed.

That statement makes no assertion as to what that rate was, only that it was unnoticed.

You can have a negative rate too.

 

[Damage3245]

"His rate of growth, which had gone unnoticed"

Tell me, FinePoint, what was being unnoticed? The fact that Saitama was growing each day? That's false because Genos himself noticed that through the VGS.

Then what else would have been going unnoticed? Well context tells us, that it was the increase in the amount he was growing each day that was going unnoticed.

Genos doesn't even fully grasp Saitama's strength himself; his observations are not reliable. And it was said in the manga that nobody noticed his rate of growth because nobody is close to his strength, and Genos is definitely not close to his strength. So Genos never actually noticed it for real.

 

[MrTayman616]

The line suggets that it is fast, enough to be visible for someone close to his level.

Also, Garou's did speed up. by statements and feats. (It gets exponential in emotional state, it's original value should be higher for it to be faster in exponential state.) It would mean original rate also gets faster.

Same would apply to Saitama

 

[FinePoint]

The line suggets that it is fast, enough to be visible for someone close to his level.

Subjective.

Also, Garou's did speed up. by statements and feats. (It gets exponential in emotional state, it's original value should be higher for it to be faster in exponential state.) It would mean original rate also gets faster.

Same would apply to Saitama

Garou and Saitama are very far apart, and Saitama has been growing past his limiter for a lot longer.

So even if Garou's did only speed up, we can't extrapolate that to Saitama now.

 

[MrTayman616]

Subjective.

Not sure how

Garou and Saitama are very far apart, and Saitama has been growing past his limiter for a lot longer.

So even if Garou's did only speed up, we can't extrapolate that to Saitama now.

Well, It is supposed to be evolution, why go slower :d

Things Garou show and the difference between him and Saitama makes it clear. Saying it might have slow down someday before doesn't make sense.

 

[FinePoint]

I sense that we are at an impasse, so I will stop commenting.

I would suggest tallying the staff votes.