One-Punch Man: Faster and Stronger!

[Phoenks]

I think LS is straightforward, but I'm not entirely sure is speed is increased by the same equalivent.

At the moment though the series probably points to them being similar enough in increase.

By "similar enough" do you mean you agree with a speed multiplier too or...?

Asking to make sure. Sometimes your responses leave me puzzled

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I would take that as a yes, but it's not exactly a yes. Please people clarify it properly .

 

[Qawsedf234]

By "similar enough" do you mean you agree with a speed multiplier too or...?

I don't agree with it as a fact like I do the AP/LS stuff, but I do think it's probably more true than not true.

So at the moment I'm okay with the upgrade.

The biggest issue is that like, all the other AP upgrades Garou gets is completely disproportionate with a speed upgrade. Which is the most glaring issue and why I'm not entirely for it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I don't agree with it as a fact like I do the AP/LS stuff, but I do think it's probably more true than not true.

So at the moment I'm okay with the upgrade.

The biggest issue is that like, all the other AP upgrades Garou gets is completely disproportionate with a speed upgrade. Which is the most glaring issue and why I'm not entirely for it.

Still can't tell. Seems like a conditional yes though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Still can't tell. Seems like a conditional yes though.

Conditional yes is correct

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually I'll take that back. The more I think on it the more I realize a 1:1 ratio doesn't work historically or even within the fight.

I'll make a post in more detail later but for now I'm against a speed upgrade.

 

[LordGinSama]

What Qaws sounds like sometimes.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn't this make "Post-Balding" key Saitama not MFTL+? Since he's equal to the Garou that got blizted in said feat?

 

[Phoenks]

Wouldn't this make "Post-Balding" key Saitama not MFTL+? Since he's equal to the Garou that got blizted in said feat?

He's not equal to Garou until after Garou copies him after he was blitzed.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He's not equal to Garou until after Garou copies him after he was blitzed.

I don't follow

We also know that he copied Saitama's speed, yet was still blitzed by Saitama after he did the omnidirectional punch.

 

[Worthless]

It's amusing how this seems close to being accepted, while verses like BC, which have so many instances (to the point it's not even funny) showcasing that the increase in power equally increases the speed, are not, or at the very least, not anymore.

I disagree as well FRA.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright, so to explain my mind change.

Speed is the hardest thing to really justify with a multiplier. That's because unlike other stats speed is something that has rather massive return on investment even with minor levels of boost. A 2x speed increase would be enough to completely overwhelm someone you were even with before, when that's not the same for any other stat. Let alone with even higher speed multipliers.

doesn't work historically

So here are Garou power growths:

• Half Monster: 1.760e+12 Joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (237,897x)
• Post-DS: 4.184e+17 joules -> 2.37651195e+28 Joules (56,799,998,804x)
• CF Garou: An initial boost of 4.2 Quadrillion to 37 Quintillion. After which he had another power boost after copying Saitama and then got 18.5x stronger with the graph

Saitama:

• Training: 12102517.8877 joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (34,571,318,454x) or 2.3806462e+28 Joules (1.967 Sextillion)
• Balding: 2.3806462e+28 Joules -> 1.8046204e+61 (758 Nonillion)

Now the above is for AP. Lets look at speed:

• Half Monster Garou: Mach 3550 -> Vaguely greater than Mach 3550
• Post-DS Garou: Vaguely greater than Mach 3550 -> Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) (<1,066x)
• CF Garou: Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) ->Mach 539,276,510 (617c) (142.49x)
• Training Saitama: 119.091515 m/s ->282,157,607.821 m/s (2,369,250x)
• Balding: 282,157,607.821 m/s -> 31,129,323,937.75 m/s (110.32x)

In other words its not even remotely close. Their speed has never been demonstrated as being 1:1 with their strength increase. In addition to the above, every single character with those ratings are going all out or trying their hardest to do something. There's no holding back shennigans like with other fights, as Saitama himself says he's not going to hold back against Garou.

If their speed increase was proportional Saitama should be 5.92338888966212e+47x FTL, when he never demonstrates that level of speed in the series.

Finally its not like this strength increase was special. It was just Saitama's AD and Garou's AD.

even within the fight.

Recon posted the following scan as evidence for the speed increase. But this does not show a proportional speed increase

• Scan 1 is Garou getting quicker, but not by a notable amount. In fact the afterimage blurs would suggest even something like a 3x speed increase would be to high
• Scan 2 is just saying he's getting faster, but that again does not mean a proportional speed increase. If it was, then Darkshine wouldn't be able to even react to Garou, since he went from being one shot to almost one shotting
• Scan 3-5: Showcases a speed increase, but again not a major one. Garou just covers a few meters before PS can move, but as said above that doesn't mean anything compared to their AP increase. Garou getting 2-3 times faster would be enough to do this feat

Overall while I do agree LS is probably effected, since strength is directly effected, there's no evidence for such a linear speed increase in my view. Garou and Saitama get faster, but they don't get trillions of times faster, which is what the OP is suggesting with the graph.

But I can see people asking "Why is speed so different?". Because as said before its about how much bang for your buck you get. To list some examples of what a 2x speed increase would be like:

• You would be clownishly superior in movement speed - Here's a very basic comparison of an adult vs an athlete in speed or for a clearer visual what a 1.45x speed difference looks like
• At half speed, barring stuff like AoE, you could likely never be hit. Think about this in a simple mechanical manner, for every two actions you can do your enemy can do as well. For every step they take, you can take two. For every punch they throw, you can throw two. You blink faster, you react faster, you move faster, etc. As an easily gameplay example, this is what a 6x speed increase does in game like Cyberpunk when played in real time. This is Raiden's movement when he is under a 10x speed increase
• This level of speed if it applies forward would again apply backwards in my view. While we don't have a hard number in their previous forms, we do know that they went from multi-continental to destroying sections of a galaxy. Their speed increasing by that amount doesn't jive with what we have.

So list me as disagree, this would just retroactively make the series make less sense imo.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Alright, so to explain my mind change.

Speed is the hardest thing to really justify with a multiplier. That's because unlike other stats speed is something that has rather massive return on investment even with minor levels of boost. A 2x speed increase would be enough to completely overwhelm someone you were even with before, when that's not the same for any other stat. Let alone with even higher speed multipliers.

So here are Garou power growths:

• Half Monster: 1.760e+12 Joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (237,897x)
• Post-DS: 4.184e+17 joules -> 2.37651195e+28 Joules (56,799,998,804x)
• CF Garou: An initial boost of 4.2 Quadrillion to 37 Quintillion. After which he had another power boost after copying Saitama and then got 18.5x stronger with the graph

Saitama:

• Training: 12102517.8877 joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (34,571,318,454x) or 2.3806462e+28 Joules (1.967 Sextillion)
• Balding: 2.3806462e+28 Joules -> 1.8046204e+61 (758 Nonillion)

Now the above is for AP. Lets look at speed:

• Half Monster Garou: Mach 3550 -> Vaguely greater than Mach 3550
• Post-DS Garou: Vaguely greater than Mach 3550 -> Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) (<1,066x)
• CF Garou: Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) ->Mach 539,276,510 (617c) (142.49x)
• Training Saitama: 119.091515 m/s ->282,157,607.821 m/s (2,369,250x)
• Balding: 282,157,607.821 m/s -> 31,129,323,937.75 m/s (110.32x)

In other words its not even remotely close. Their speed has never been demonstrated as being 1:1 with their strength increase. In addition to the above, every single character with those ratings are going all out or trying their hardest to do something. There's no holding back shennigans like with other fights, as Saitama himself says he's not going to hold back against Garou.

If their speed increase was proportional Saitama should be 5.92338888966212e+47x FTL, when he never demonstrates that level of speed in the series.

Finally its not like this strength increase was special. It was just Saitama's AD and Garou's AD.


Recon posted the following scan as evidence for the speed increase. But this does not show a proportional speed increase

• Scan 1 is Garou getting quicker, but not by a notable amount. In fact the afterimage blurs would suggest even something like a 3x speed increase would be to high
• Scan 2 is just saying he's getting faster, but that again does not mean a proportional speed increase. If it was, then Darkshine wouldn't be able to even react to Garou, since he went from being one shot to almost one shotting
• Scan 3-5: Showcases a speed increase, but again not a major one. Garou just covers a few meters before PS can move, but as said above that doesn't mean anything compared to their AP increase. Garou getting 2-3 times faster would be enough to do this feat

Overall while I do agree LS is probably effected, since strength is directly effected, there's no evidence for such a linear speed increase in my view. Garou and Saitama get faster, but they don't get trillions of times faster, which is what the OP is suggesting with the graph.

But I can see people asking "Why is speed so different?". Because as said before its about how much bang for your buck you get. To list some examples of what a 2x speed increase would be like:

• You would be clownishly superior in movement speed - Here's a very basic comparison of an adult vs an athlete in speed or for a clearer visual what a 1.45x speed difference looks like
• At half speed, barring stuff like AoE, you could likely never be hit. Think about this in a simple mechanical manner, for every two actions you can do your enemy can do as well. For every step they take, you can take two. For every punch they throw, you can throw two. You blink faster, you react faster, you move faster, etc. As an easily gameplay example, this is what a 6x speed increase does in game like Cyberpunk when played in real time. This is Raiden's movement when he is under a 10x speed increase
• This level of speed if it applies forward would again apply backwards in my view. While we don't have a hard number in their previous forms, we do know that they went from multi-continental to destroying sections of a galaxy. Their speed increasing by that amount doesn't jive with what we have.

So list me as disagree, this would just retroactively make the series make less sense imo.

Agree with this as well.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

bump

 

[KingTempest]

Disagree on speed

There being an increase in speed doesn't mean that speed is objectively increased on the same level as attack potency

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Qaws' post above.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Disagree on speed

There being an increase in speed doesn't mean that speed is objectively increased on the same level as attack potency

I agree with Qaws' post above.

Wow, you guys were quick.

Did I gain the superpower to summon the staff?

 

[Shadow_x007x]

If so, are we accepting Saitama and Garou's speed in Key Parallel Timeline as At least Massively FTL, likely higher? Since he is literally faster.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

While Saitama's speed isn't "untouched" here, it doesn't necessarily mean that his speed increases proportionally with his strength. His strength can be increased and his speed can be increased, but that doesn't prove that the increase in his strength = the increase in his speed.

NGL, this does not fit our multiplier standards, so it's a disagree

Yes garou entire thing is he adapts in both strength and speed

You are claiming the op is wrong just because it’s like the boros thread you can’t refute the op arguments and go by opinion

It’s up to to prove why the op is wrong

this doesn't fit our multiplier standards which is what actually matters on-site
Example:
I trained my lifting strength and running speed for a 6 month period, where I got stronger and faster. I got 1.8x stronger, does this mean it's safe to assume speed increased by 1.8x too? No.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this notion that the series has to deliberately spoon-feed you absolutely everything.

We clearly see that both Saitama's speed and power are growing, nobody seems to disagree with that. It is in unison with a graph that very clearly implies it isn't only applicable to his physical power.

It still wouldn't fit the multiplier standards, and unless there's calc support here, IDK if we have good enough evidence to approve this multiplier

 

[Recon1511]

I guess we'll just apply the multiplier for LS, what would be their new LS now?

 

[Phoenks]

In the OP

 

[Recon1511]

Well, staff agreed with the LS stuff so this can be applied I think.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, staff agreed with the LS stuff so this can be applied I think.

You can count the votes. Imo it probably works out but I don't remember if others commented on it.

 

[Phoenks]

So here are Garou power growths:

• Half Monster: 1.760e+12 Joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (237,897x)
• Post-DS: 4.184e+17 joules -> 2.37651195e+28 Joules (56,799,998,804x)
• CF Garou: An initial boost of 4.2 Quadrillion to 37 Quintillion. After which he had another power boost after copying Saitama and then got 18.5x stronger with the graph

Saitama:

• Training: 12102517.8877 joules -> 4.184e+17 joules (34,571,318,454x) or 2.3806462e+28 Joules (1.967 Sextillion)
• Balding: 2.3806462e+28 Joules -> 1.8046204e+61 (758 Nonillion)

Now the above is for AP. Lets look at speed:

• Half Monster Garou: Mach 3550 -> Vaguely greater than Mach 3550
• Post-DS Garou: Vaguely greater than Mach 3550 -> Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) (<1,066x)
• CF Garou: Mach 3,784,549.9 (4.33c) ->Mach 539,276,510 (617c) (142.49x)
• Training Saitama: 119.091515 m/s ->282,157,607.821 m/s (2,369,250x)
• Balding: 282,157,607.821 m/s -> 31,129,323,937.75 m/s (110.32x)

In other words its not even remotely close. Their speed has never been demonstrated as being 1:1 with their strength increase. In addition to the above, every single character with those ratings are going all out or trying their hardest to do something. There's no holding back shennigans like with other fights, as Saitama himself says he's not going to hold back against Garou.

If their speed increase was proportional Saitama should be 5.92338888966212e+47x FTL, when he never demonstrates that level of speed in the series.

Finally its not like this strength increase was special. It was just Saitama's AD and Garou's AD.

I do not think it is fair to compare the gaps between fan calcs of the characters to a narratively showcased power graph and visuals of them increasing in speed. Obviously the fan calcs will make the gaps seem a lot bigger than what the authors themselves intend.

Like in the Dragon Ball series (particularly Z), characters will jump by millions of times between different sagas and even between fights (based on fan calculations), but then treat 10x-50x stated differences as being immense during fights. Yet we still accept these multipliers for strength and speed in some cases.

The same goes for many series.

Recon posted the following scan as evidence for the speed increase. But this does not show a proportional speed increase

• Scan 1 is Garou getting quicker, but not by a notable amount. In fact the afterimage blurs would suggest even something like a 3x speed increase would be to high
• Scan 2 is just saying he's getting faster, but that again does not mean a proportional speed increase. If it was, then Darkshine wouldn't be able to even react to Garou, since he went from being one shot to almost one shotting
• Scan 3-5: Showcases a speed increase, but again not a major one. Garou just covers a few meters before PS can move, but as said above that doesn't mean anything compared to their AP increase. Garou getting 2-3 times faster would be enough to do this feat

Darkshine could barely react to Garou and he was never one shot by him either. I would say the strength and speed was very proportional there.

As for 3-5, you seem to have completely skipped over how much more dense the lines became in such a short amount of time, which clearly infers much more than a 2-3x speed increase.

As does the blitzing, I think you are underestimating how much fast you would need to be to do that to someone you were previously trading with from a distance.

But I can see people asking "Why is speed so different?". Because as said before its about how much bang for your buck you get. To list some examples of what a 2x speed increase would be like:

• You would be clownishly superior in movement speed - Here's a very basic comparison of an adult vs an athlete in speed or for a clearer visual what a 1.45x speed difference looks like
• At half speed, barring stuff like AoE, you could likely never be hit. Think about this in a simple mechanical manner, for every two actions you can do your enemy can do as well. For every step they take, you can take two. For every punch they throw, you can throw two. You blink faster, you react faster, you move faster, etc. As an easily gameplay example, this is what a 6x speed increase does in game like Cyberpunk when played in real time. This is Raiden's movement when he is under a 10x speed increase
• This level of speed if it applies forward would again apply backwards in my view. While we don't have a hard number in their previous forms, we do know that they went from multi-continental to destroying sections of a galaxy. Their speed increasing by that amount doesn't jive with what we have.

I would also like to just mention that Garou shouldn't be the deciding factor here since it is Saitama specifically who was growing exponentially. Garou was merely copying his growth.

And Saitama could go from FTL-ish to Massively FTL+ in an unknown timeframe without even kicking into his exponential growth until now.

So for Saitama I don't really think these Garou numbers are the end all be all in the first place. I was mostly using him as supporting evidence to showcase how speed does grow alongside power in the series a majority of the time.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like in the Dragon Ball series (particularly Z), characters will jump by millions of times between different sagas and even between fights (based on fan calculations), but then treat 10x-50x stated differences as being immense during fights. Yet we still accept these multipliers for strength and speed in some cases.

Dragon Ball pre-Super is entirely based on multipliers and who scales to them. Everyone pre-Cell is upscaling from base Frieza and after Cell its upscaling from the solar Kamehameha. In addition DB also fits the speed multiplier where stronger characters are also notably faster, with big enough power gaps rendering attacks invisible or unreactable to others.

In addition this entire thread is about applying a fan calc to other fan calcs. So saying fan calcs don't line up would make everything unusable in my view.

Darkshine could barely react to Garou and he was never one shot by him either. I would say the strength and speed was very proportional there.

He was being overwhelmed but also seeing Garou the entire time. Even when he was threatened by Garou he wasn't experiencing a proportional speed gap.

As for 3-5, you seem to have completely skipped over how much more dense the lines became in such a short amount of time, which clearly infers much more than a 2-3x speed increase.

It doesn't. I've shown what a 6x and 10x gap looks like and it's insanely superior to someone moving at relatively normal speeds. Garou didn't get dozens of times faster and it'd be a stretch to give him more than a 2-3x increase.

As does the blitzing, I think you are underestimating how much fast you would need to be to do that to someone you were previously trading with from a distance.

I'm not underestimating speed gaps, it's just that you don't need much of a speed gap before you'll utterly overwhelm someone.

And Saitama could go from FTL-ish to Massively FTL+ in an unknown timeframe without even kicking into his exponential growth until now.

That still runs into the previous problem. A tier 7/6 to 4A/3C is such a massive jump that Saitama's feats disprove a 1:1 speed increase. If Saitama did get proportionally faster he'd be in the sextillions of FTL range, but barely into MFTL or MFTL+.

So overall my stance is unchanged. You can prove they're faster, but I don't see a good indication that it's a 1:1 speed increase.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Qaws' objections with the speed proposal.

 

[Phoenks]

Ah well, it was worth a try.

What do you all think of LS then?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Agree with LS