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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

Stefano4444 said:
So yeah Whole Cake/Dressrosa Boundman Luffy be physically far stronger than most Top Commanders its actually more than likely, as before Kaido nobody ever manage to trully overpower his Gear 4th, even Katakuri couldn't do it without rely on his Awakening. And if he was put against Queen then he would have been able to overpower him too.

To be honest the only Top Commanders who can be argue to be more powerful than this version of Luffy are Marco (due of what i mention before), Benn (due of Shanks's crew be stronger than the average Emperor's crew), King and Ace. Everyone else would get below Boundman Luffy in terms of physical power (with Katakuri match him with Awakening).
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holy based
 
Ped2018 said:
Everyone pre Wano is trash man
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Lol Perospero literally dispove that notion by honestly performing far better than most Tobiroppo, starting with:

- Briefly clashing with Marco without immediately getting speedblitz/oneshotted, while they were try to reach Onigashima.

- Big Mom believing that his oldest son had the means to kill Marco when she restrained him.

- Surviving fighting both Sulong Carrot and Wanda, until they lost the form as he then overpower them.

- Manage to injuring Monster Point Chopper, the same one who while never manage to genuinely injure Queen he still did make It bleed. Besides that he should he relative to Mid Straw Hats like Franky and Nico who for the most part overwhelm the likes of Black Maria and Sasaki.

- Survive getting hit by Queen when he was throw away from Sanji's kick, as Perospero then tried to kill him only to be stopped by Neko.

- Surviving a beatdown from Sulong Neko until he returned to Base, where Perospero started having the upper hand and he would have kill him if not for the sky to be split again by Kaidou and Luffy's Haki clash.

Unless you think Pero suddendly grow stronger/faster than Katakuri by the very next arc, i don't know how you can believe something like that.

Also does that means Kin'emon its also trash now? After all he couldn't do shit against the Birdcage.
 
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Nierre said:
"wano key" perospero is just cope
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Exactly, its also the reason why i call bs Jinbei having three separated Keys for Beginning of Timeskip, Onigashima Raid and Egghead, despite the fact that nothing suggest that he got any significant Strength/Speed increases since he was re-introduced after the Timeskip.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
Weaker than Dressrosa Boundman for sure, but Cracker? Not necessarily.

While Cracker could actually harm Boundman, that does not necessarily mean he was above him. At most, they were relative, and it could still be argued that Cracker was inferior to Gear 4th overall. The gap in strength and speed was just far smaller compared to Doffy, who could not even hurt Boundman and could barely keep up with him.

After all, I think the major issue that Luffy had against Cracker was not simply that he was strong or fast enough, but that his Devil Fruit was a particularly good counter against brute force or people who like fight into direct confrontation. He could create an endless number of Biscuit Soldiers, forcing Boundman to waste time and energy destroying them while also having to defend himself against Cracker directly.

Luffy even needed assistance from Nami to weaken the Biscuit Soldiers. Then he had to use Tankman so he could hold Cracker in place, prevent him from escaping, and charge an attack that knocked him out. Cracker himself admitted that he does not have very high pain tolerance, which, while it does not mean he is a glass cannon, does imply that his endurance is lower than that of other characters.

So I do not see any major contradiction. After all i never said that Doffy’s strings necessarily scale above Jozu, only that they should be somewhat relative. We never actually saw how Jozu freed himself, and I do not see a reason why Doffy would simply let him go. So it is more than likely that Jozu had the strength to free himself. However, since the strings were able to restrain Jozu without immediately breaking, it implies that Jozu likely had to put effort into escaping.

That would still validate the idea that the strings to at least scale from other Top Commanders in terms of Durability and Lifting Strength (as that its requid for the strings to restrain Jozu). Which in turn should put Dressrosa Boundman Luffy at least around if not above Jozu.

And while I did say that Cracker being able to harm Boundman does not necessarily make him stronger than or equal to Jozu, it does suggest that he and the rest of the Sweet Commanders should exist around the same tier as Whitebeard’s strongest crew members, such as Jozu, Vista, and Ace. Marco is the exception, since, as I said, he has actual feats that place him above the typical Top Commander.

The same can also apply to the All-Stars, including Jack, since he has his own scaling from the Nine Red Scabbards, which could give him a “possibly Low 5-B” rating. This is also supported by the fact that, logically speaking, he should be around Cracker as them are arguably the weakest Top Commanders. Of course, there would still be some exceptions and specializations, such as King having far greater Durability due to his Lunarian physiology, or Katakuri having greater Speed than most because of Advanced Observation Haki.

This also makes narrative sense, since it has been established multiple times that the Emperors are very bellicose. At least Big Mom and Kaido are, while Whitebeard and Shanks are more reactive, especially Shanks, who tends to focus on maintaining the status quo. Their crews have fought each other many times over the decades, only to repeatedly end up in a standstill. With Perospero mentionung in Wano how many times he wanted to kill Marco in the past, implying that they had clashed on several occasions.

And this kind of long-term stalemate would only be possible if Big Mom’s officers and Sweet Commanders were indeed capable of facing the top crew members of other Emperors, at least those from Kaido and Whitebeard’s crews. As Shanks's top officers be stronger than most doesn't cause contradiction as it was enstablish that they have higher bounties imply higher strong, plus Shanks be very passive would means that he likely fought far less than the other Emperors.
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If Doffy awakening~Boundman dura(the onky way he harmed Luffy despite haki) then at best he is relative to Cracker can overpower boundman haki defences and even make him bleed so Doffy string dura~Boundman dura~<Cracker ap and dura, his endurance does not mean much since we not talking about direct 1v1 just to what they scale.
If you take that and bring in that Jozu scaling, then it becomes something like
Jozu ap and dura(he could not break the strings)~Doffy strings dura~Boundman dura(could break and fight against the strings of parasite and from the awakening)~<Cracker ap and dura(overpowered Boundman Haki with his own)
If we go on with the arcs we have
Jozu~Doffy strings~Boundman~<Cracker<Kat(strongest BMP comander and only weaker than Big Mom)~Early wanoG4(High diffed Kat)<one shot gap< base Kaido(one shot luffy, equal to BigMom)= base BigMom(Equal to kaido and one shot Luffy just by blocking if you wanna take that).
If we expand with the Jozu scaling we have him downscaling from Kuzan while still being able to fight him
Kuzan~>(did keep up with kuzan and not got one shot until offguarded) Jozu~ Doffy strings~Boundman~<Craker<Kat~EWG4 Luffy< One shot gap <Kaido and Big Mom.

Jozu is, at the same time, relative to the top tiers, as in, he does not get one shot by one, and weaker than characters who get one shot by top tiers. That can't happen. Doffy ***** his pants when he thinks about angering Kaido while Jozu is keeping up with admirals. Unless you belive the Marineford admirals aint all that, this breaks the scaling.

Stefano4444 said:
Sure, Doffy is weak, but compared to whom exactly? The All-Stars? Definitely. The Tobiroppo? That is more questionable, since most of them doesn't have any rest many significant feats in Wano beyond downscaling from Ulti and Who’s-Who and getting mid-diffed by Wano Straw Hats. And frankly, it is not unbelievable for Doflamingo to be around their level.

Despite being weaker than Gear 4th, it is not as if Boundman could one-shot him. Doflamingo survived multiple named attacks from someone who should have at least comparable strength to Jozu. This is somewhat similar to Perospero enduring a beatdown from Sulong Neko long enough for the moon to be covered by clouds, after which Perospero started gaining the upper hand and only failing to finish off as he return to his Sulong Form where he proceed to oneshot him.

And sure, Perospero was facing a heavily wounded Neko, but Jack himself stated that none of the Tobiroppo could hope to win against the Nine Red Scabbards, even in their weakened state after getting beaten by Base Kaido. That alone already portrays Perospero as stronger than most of the Tobiroppo (with Ulti and Who’s-Who being the only ones who have legitimate scaling that could potentially put them above him). The same logic can be applied to Doflamingo.

Besides, how literally are we supposed to take Kaido’s statement? When Kaido was hit by Post-Udon Base Luffy, he initially left shocked viewed him in the same league as Shanks, Oden, Whitebeard, Roger, and Rocks. Yet he only realize later that this was due to Durability Negation, and Luffy had to unlock Advanced Conqueror’s Haki to actually fight on par with Kaido. So it is likely that a drunk Kaido simply called Doffy “weak” because he lost, rather than because Doffy is genuinely weak.
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I did not bring the tobiroppo, none of them have any scaling to the Top nor the high tiers not with feats nor statments nor narrative, will not talk about it since they dont really matter for this, unless you want to take drake+ the other one(WW I think) wanting to take on Queen 2v1 as serious statement to gauge their power. Doffy should still at most a bit weaker than them due to them downscaling from around late Wano Luffy G3 who shoud be at the very least relative to his G4 from Dressrosa in Ap since the Kat Fight so thats that.
The whole point of my argument is, by whateaver mesure Kaido thing Jack (and the samurai) strong, he thinks Doffy is weak for losing against a rookie. By the scaling presented in the series, it checks out, he is undeniably weaker and would loose any 1v1 against any of the comander from any Yonko as infered by kaido and belived by Big Mom who sent Cracker to deal with the guy who beat him.
And even if kaido is drunk, we never see him being drunk affecting much of his judgment of strengh. The top 5 thing ain't an actual top 5 of strengh since Linlin is not there (stated and shown multiple time to be his equal) and the scale of strengh is also different, he would not compare neither Jack nor doffy to fraking Rock would he? The Jack point is more of support that is consistent with the feats of the characters, Jack is indeed strong compared to Doffy and thats that.



Stefano4444 said:
Yet despite having access to his Hybrid Form (which to be honest i'm not completely sure about Hybrid Forms > Full Zoan Forms as a general rule) or his Germa abilities, he still couldn't do anything against an amnesiac Big Mom, who overpowered him with just her raw physical strength. He even believed that a sneak attack from a great height would work in this situation. Yet this only managed to make Big Mom recover her memories and return to her normal state, with Queen sensing the change and realizing that he stood no chance at that point.

Compared to Boundman, who actually managed to briefly clash (with a non named attack, no King Kong Gun or anything flashy) with a Big Mom not handicapped and fully conscious, without getting overwhelmed, its night and day. And sure, Luffy was forced to detransform, but it was still a far more impressive performance than Queen, no matter what one thinks about Big Mom overusing Haki. Also i'm impressive sure that none of Queen’s Germa abilities can make him physically stronger or more durable than normal, his cybernetic augmentations are already activated (whereas Sanji did not awaken his own enhancements until later).

So yeah Whole Cake/Dressrosa Boundman Luffy be physically far stronger than most Top Commanders its actually more than likely, as before Kaido nobody ever manage to trully overpower his Gear 4th, even Katakuri couldn't do it without rely on his Awakening. And if he was put against Queen then he would have been able to overpower him too.

To be honest the only Top Commanders who can be argue to be more powerful than this version of Luffy are Marco (due of what i mention before), Benn (due of Shanks's crew be stronger than the average Emperor's crew), King and Ace. Everyone else would get below Boundman Luffy in terms of physical power (with Katakuri match him with Awakening).
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Don't want to defend Queen that much, but if he did not try any of his serious attacks nor anything so there is no direct cap for him to downscale from the top tiers, expecially considering he has feats to make him comparable to King who has some scaling on Base Kaido due to Zoro.
But here's the thing, Big Mom uses haki on anyone, and even still, if Queen is only "no haki Big Mom" level, it does not change any other scaling chain shown to the Whitebeard Comanders nor the Scabbards and not for Yamato. All of them could keep up with a trying Top tier better than Kat (comparable to luffy who got one shot), Doffy (weaker than Kat) and anyone inbetween.
WCI Luffy is strong, he is in the top 2% of fighters but King(Queen too since they are to be comparable in some sense), Jozu, the Scabbards with their ACoA/Oden style(since thats what they use to actually damage Kaido and get one shot by any attack trown at them), Vista and Yamato all have shown better feats against the Top Tier characters.
Unles you wanna argue that Pre Time Skip admirals are not on the level of Base Kaido and basic hardening no homies Big Mom, I don't how your scaling does not contradict the manga.
 
Bananossauro said:
If Doffy awakening~Boundman dura
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His Awakening never actually managed to damage Boundman or match his raw physical strength, even his strongest attack was instantly overpower by a King Kong Gun.

He only legit scales to Top Commanders through his strings (Durability and Lifting Strength only), but himself and especially in terms of AP? He doesn't or if we want to be generous he at most downscales.

But considering that he would downscale from characters already only partially downscale from Top Tiers, Doffy really has no legitimate arguments to have Low 5-B AP.

Bananossauro said:
Jozu is, at the same time, relative to the top tiers, as in, he does not get one shot by one, and weaker than characters who get one shot by top tiers. That can't happen.
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And this is where the crack in your argument appears: you are still assuming that Jozu, Vista, and Ace are still meant to be on relatively terms with Kizaru, Aokiji, and Akainu. And while that may be a valid assumption if you take the events of Marineford in isolation, i unfortunately believe that this interpretation was made no longer possible by the power creep introducted Wano and afterward.

Whether Oda intended this from the very beginning or chose to change it later, he made the decision to widen the gap in strength/speed between these two groups. Most likely as he wanted the Admirals to still remain legitimate challenge to Top Tiers like Post Wano Luffy, as otherwise Kizaru would have got wasted without major issues on Egghead, same with Aokji when facing Garp.

Meaning as unlikely it may be at first glance, the Admirals at Marineford where holding back far more than we realize, at least when not fighting WB.

Where initially, the scaling seemed to suggest something like this:

Emperor > Admiral >= Top Commander

But now, it seems to have changed into something closer to this:

Emperor ≈ Admiral >>> Top Commander

There is plenty of reason to believe this is the case, from the infamous moment where Base Kaido one-shot Boundman, who, as I already claimed before, should legitimately upscale above most Top Commander (or at very worst still be relative to Jozu as a lowball). Then Luffy and everyone on the Rooftop also had to rely on durability negation or other special means to meaningfully damage Kaido and Big Mom, such as Zoro using Enma. And then Luffy needed both Advanced Conqueror’s Haki and Gear 5 to first reach and then surpass Kaido’s level.

And let’s not forget Greenbull overpowering both Queen and King without significant effort, while declaring that no Admiral is supposed to lose against mere Commanders. The quote is not exactly that, but it carries the same meaning. So, unless you believe he was only referring to himself and Issho, and we was exclusive WB crew for some reason, then the statement should apply to every Admiral and most Emperors Officers/Commanders.

This is further proven later when Greenbull single-handedly fights all the Nine Red Scabbards and is clearly portrayed as having the edge, not too differently from Kaido. Even when facing Yamato and Dragon Momonosuke, he was still confident and ready to get serious, only stopping when Shanks intimidated him. And, of course, there are also Aokiji and Kizaru, who were able to fight on relatively equal terms with their respective Emperor-tier opponents, despite how many power-ups Luffy received during Wano and how much Garp was upscaled thanks to the power creep.

And it is not like we can simply say that Whitebeard’s crew was in another league, because then the idea of the Emperors being locked in a decades-long stalemate against each other would not make sense. Yes, Whitebeard did not care about conquering territories or becoming the new Pirate King, unlike Kaido and Big Mom. However, it is also true that he and his crew had already fought Big Mom’s crew in the past, without either side being truly defeated. On top of that, both Whitebeard and Marco believed that going to war with Kaido to free Wano would have been far too costly.

If there truly were a very significant gap between his men and the other crews, then the Big Mom Pirates would get a significant defeat and would have been discredited as a Yonko crew long before the beginning of the series, and Whitebeard may have already freed Wano.

Because sure, Whitebeard is not the type to seek bloodshed, but we also know that he can be ruthless when necessary, as shown by his stance toward Crocodile and the many Level 6 criminals in Impel Down, especially when it comes to protecting his crew, family, friends, and territories. I doubt that whatever camaraderie he may have felt for Linlin and Kaido from the Rocks era would have made him hesitate against such active threats.

Even Kaido when he realize Bing Mom was accompanied by her children Smoothie, Perospero, Oven and Daisuke didn't want them to reach and step on Wano as there would had been and actual war, which wouldn't be the case if those Officers are fodder to even the weakest of the Tobiroppo or by people like Apoo or Basil.

If anything the only Emperor crew that currently would make sense to be far stronger than everyone else would be Red Hair Pirates, as Shanks only became emperor only 6 years before the beginning of the series and he was actively tried to keep the status quo, ensuring that the balance of power remained until Luffy could show up to bring the dawn of the world. So his Top Officers be vastly stronger than the rest wouldn't be inconsistent, especially it was stated that his crew was smaller it made up by having far more infamous and formidable members with having higher average bounties.

Bananossauro said:
I did not bring the tobiroppo, none of them have any scaling to the Top nor the high tiers not with feats nor statments nor narrative
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I bring the Tobiroppo because despite everything you say Kaido still believe that they are strong enough to deserve be high ranking officers of his crew, only below the All Stars, even telling them that they even have the change to take their post if they choose to challenge them.

That by going Kaido's standard when it come to his crew Doflamingo should still be not a fodder as feat wise he can be reasonably put around their level, at the weakest ones like Black Mario, Drake, Page One and Sasaki.

Bananossauro said:
The top 5 thing ain't an actual top 5 of strengh since Linlin is not there (stated and shown multiple time to be his equal)
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Its kinda about power/strength, i don't see how it can't be intepretated in any other way, unless you think Oden should be weaker than Kaido, despite the former having him defeat him in combat. Sure its was a younger Kaido, but even that despite all the years Kaido still view Oden on the same league as Prime Roger and Prime WB.

And for Linlin, its because honestly feats and narrative wise Kaido should be above Linlin rather than exactly equal, and its not like it would be inconsistent or contradict other statements since like with the Top Commanders where can be clear gap in power/speed despite be within existing in the same tier/group (as Katakuri > Cracker despite all of them be Sweet Commanders, or Sakazuki > Borsalino despite them be all Admirals).

Bananossauro said:
Don't want to defend Queen that much, but if he did not try any of his serious attacks nor anything so there is no direct cap for him to downscale from the top tiers, expecially considering he has feats to make him comparable to King who has some scaling on Base Kaido due to Zoro.
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But then i must ask, why didn't Queen even consider using his Germa abilities, Hybrid Form or any of his strongest attacks if they had the potential to actually harm Big Mom? Especially when she was clearly not a her best (since her mental state to also affect her durability as when Mother Carmel picture was destroyed she was so stressed that her kneel start bleeding)?

Either Queen its a dumbass who forgot that he could do better, or more likely Queen genuinely believed that was the only feasible tactic left for him to actually harm her, as his brief exchange with her was enough for him to conclude that nothing in his arsenal would work on Big Mom, one who wasn't as her best.

Bananossauro said:
But here's the thing, Big Mom uses haki on anyone, and even still, if Queen is only "no haki Big Mom" level, it does not change any other scaling chain shown to the Whitebeard Comanders nor the Scabbards and not for Yamato. All of them could keep up with a trying Top tier better than Kat (comparable to luffy who got one shot), Doffy (weaker than Kat) and anyone inbetween.
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I already addressed the scaling of Whitebeard’s Commanders, and as for Yamato, I have nothing to say against her. She actually performed far more impressively than all the Scabbards combined, since she fought a much more serious Hybrid Kaido for a good amount of time while Luffy was recovering, so of all the people here she its the one should legit be Low 5-B.

Not to downplay the Scabbards, but let’s not overexaggerate either. The only times they managed to make Kaido bleed were at the beginning of the raid, when they all rushed him together, and when they used their combined attack on the very same scar left by Oden.

The first case only happened because they initially attacked Kaido while he was still off guard. Then, when he sensed their Ryuo and noticed how similar it was to Oden’s, it mentally triggered him (mental state does affect their physical condition as Big Mom show). Even then, their swords did not manage to inflict any permanent damage.

The second case is similar, with Kaido stating that their attack was too shallow and failed to reopen the wound Oden inflicted on him years ago. He even laments that a monster like Oden is unlikely to ever be born again. Afterward, he returns to Base form and starts beating all of them down, leaving them badly injured, seemingly without using any named attacks.

Frankly, they only lasted longer than Boundman because of them be a group, their teamwork and their use of Oden’s Two-Sword Style, while also having train and prepared to the eventuality of them facing him. Because of that, i do not see anything suggesting that they are so massively stronger than Pre Udon Boundman to the point that they are on another level.
 
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Stefano4444 said:
First part: Doffy strings scaling (the walls are getting big sorry if you feel like its dissrespectfull, I'm on my mobile and its hard to keep track on where to cut things out)
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I feel like you misunderstoood me or I did not make myself clear enough. The awakening thing is that the strongest attack was only overpowered by the strongest attack from Luffy, and that his awakening could hurt Luffy despite his base strings (the ones who held Jozu) being completely useless, as in: jozu ap~string dura<awakening string dura/ap~<G4 dura/ap. This makes it worse: Dressrosa G4 outscales Jozu and the stronger G4 gets one shot by a Top tier who should be relative to the one Jozu could Stall. We both agree that Doffy has no reason to remotely scale to the Top tiers in any form, and I'm saying that Jozu has good feats against the Top tiers and if tge current scale of things (Pre time skip Admiral~<Yonko=Current Admirals) then Doffy has no reason to scale from a one off feat that is insconsitent, again, unless you bring any insconsistency to the way Jozu is scaled that is not just "should be" or Vaguely pointing at the deadlock thing(I will get into it don't worry).

Stefano4444 said:
Second part: the deadlock and the relation of comanders and the admirals
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First, your claim that Luffy is stronger than Jozu needs to substtantiated with more than "Luffy got one shot against no homies Big Mom and by Base Kaido". Second: while I'm saying the comanders are strong, I'm not saying they are completely relative to the admirals, its simply that they can survive and stall them out and keep up with them, like they did on Marine ford.
Greenbull: thing like I said the Akaza 9 only do things to top tiers when combining attacks, ACoA and Oden style while trying (big trying here) to re-open an scar left by Oden and he dogged on them while they were still recovering. Good feat overall but nothing on Comanders.
And Yamato did mostly nothing because Momo kept ordering for him to do nothing (and also was recovering) and still by the feats he showed against Hybrid Kaido, it would lead to an fight like Jozu had against Aokiji or Marco to Borsalino, he would survive but would inebitably fall to a maybe midlow diff battle at the best. (Also using his confidence ain't that good since he wanted to run the ones with Luffy and the whole crew and I don't see him winning that 1v10 considering the High Diff against Kizaru).
King and Queen where also recovering, Queen could not even stay in his zoan form for long nor use his Cyborg stuff(in the anime he literally went out of his Zoan forms after firing some lasers). They got styled on because he took them while they were down, based on Kings own scaling(at least his dura is above Base Kaido due to the statments on egghead), he should be capable of holding on for a bit when healthy and Queen could do support with the lasers or any other thing in his kit, that is not an contradiction. Yes they would loose since they are "mere commanders" but never in the series a commander won against a top tier, just stalled and kinda kept up, witch they should be able to do if they were up.

Now comes the deadlock part.
The deadlock woul still work even if a few WB comander can keep up (not win lagainst, Keep up) against the top tiers simply because the one who attacks on any enemy territory would be on a uphilll battle we've been shown this when BigMom pulled up on Wano, Kaido got stressed and did not want her to get there so he made sure to strike her on water where she is defenseless. If Kaido or white beard pulled up on Whole Cake, they would loose many of their army and would have to fight with less people and the key combatants would be able to overwhelm most with numbers if Big Mom does not get them first. Old White Beard due to sickness can't do long battles and thus would be also in a troublessome match against any other Yonko due to stamina and Haki issues, his big Quake punches could only stop Akainu for a while, they would at most slowdown the tanks that are Big Mom and Kaido while Shanks simply scales to a healthier WB and even maybe to the Prime old gens due to elbaf stuff. Big Mom and Kaido, despite not having as many comanders on the level of the division comanders mentioned, they simoly have a higher floor of strengh. Their "fodder" unironically wash the fodder of Whitebeard due to most having haki showings and/or a devil fruit. Hell, Cracker can make an endless amount of dressrosa g3 level combatants and Queen can make some bullshit ass virus for crowd control they all can wipe lower tier fighters/ make their effective numbers even more disproportional.
The BM pirates are not weaker than tobiroppo, I did not claim that. The Tobiroppo are at best on Crackers Level with no wank,Smoothie can scale anywhere from Cracker and Kat(from at most Jack to maybe above Queen level) with a haxy devil fruit, Perospero can maybe Kill Marco with an arrow and Big Mom can deal with most fodder and maybe even Queen with her Soul/fearHax, heck King of The Pirates Gol D. Roger with what one of if not the most stacked crew in terms of power having many characters who'd scale to the top tiers and still did not want to confront Big Mom directly in her territory. The deadlock works even if there is some gap between the comanders, since even if you think there is a clear victor, the winner would still be weakened to where another yonko could take them out. Its not 4 1v1s, its a free for all.


Stefano4444 said:
Part 3 : tobiroppo stuff
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Look man, Doffy can still be tobiroppo level and it would not change a thing in my view. They as a whole are all below Jack and should as a whole be weaker than even Cracker. If you belive that Kaido considers them "strong enough" to be on his crew, he does not think the same for Doffy at least you can't prove that because Kaido never praised Doffy strengh so you just made Doffy's ceeling lower. From "somewhere weaker than Jack and Cracker" to "somewhere weaker than the tobiroppo" and it would not even change anything in the scale I'm pushing. All in all, they do not matter that much when talking about doffy nor the Commanders and Yonko level chacters.

Stefano4444 said:
Part 4: Kaido's Top 5 stuff
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His top 5 can not be an actual top 5 of only strengh since there are chacters missing that should be there who are stronger or equal to the 5 in there like: Big Mom who with 1 homie is equal to his base battling him for 3 days and with 3 is capable of combined attacks and has equal showings to his hybrid form, has narrstive to be his equal and in the past Roger ducked her when his crew was the most stacked with heavy hitters;
Mihawk is an equal to Shanks (lets not get into the strongest debate here lets just take the base assumption);
Shiki,Garp and Senbumku are all equals and rivals of Roger that have fought in equal terms to the pirate king(sengoku is here because he has narrative to be close to Garp but you can take him out if you want);
Harold is an rival ,friend and equal to Rocks, he should be there too.
But if not just about strengh its about what you ask? Its also about respect Roger conquered the seas, Newgate almost did the same and rivaled him in his Peak, Shanks is glazed by everyone in the story and Oden is the first guy to ever leave a scar on his body. Its the people he respect.
You seem to think Oden is stronger than Kaido, how? His best feat was against Dragon Kaido and Kaido got stronger since then. Oden got no feats other than scarring the weakest Kaido form and getting blown away by Roger, he is not above Kaido in the slighest and the Top 5 can not be used to argue that when Garp or Shiki is not there, you know, the rivals of the Pirate King.

Stefano4444 said:
Part 5: Queen
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Look man Queen is a Dumbass, he literally shot himself with his own voice sensitive missiles in the raid. He panicked because LinLin is LinLin and just made up some bullshit on the spot since he had to act quickly before she regained her memories and then he be on a timer to die against a fullpower LinLin the same way all commanders are against the top tiers. But then again Queen scaling is not a hill I will die on unless you want to make King very far apart him since they are to be comparable (if Queen is not scaling to top tiers neither is King and vice-versa is what I'm saying ).

Stefano4444 said:
Part 6 : scabbard
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You are right that they only lasted more than G4 because they were in a 9v1, but G4 could not do the damage they did with their combined attacks+AcoA and Oden style. Overall they are all weaker than Boundman individually, but their combined attacks would mogg if landed. Scabbards only scale trough oden style and combined attacks, only their situational Ap is scaled that high (as in grossly downscaling from the weakest Kaido form) not anything else. Besides their situational Ap, they would only upscale from Jack given that when damaged they could fight and beat him.

The best way to lessen the gap I can see is, if we continue to believe Post Udon Base Luffy = Post Whole Cake G4 and use the 4x multiplier to downscale.
Then the gap between the commanders at their strongest and base Top Tiers would be Like a 4x in ap and dura (not speed since that is weirder to make sense of it). Not sure if people would agree to this but would make the gap between High and Top tiers(commanders to Yonko) less ugly but would just move the problem downwards making the gap between the High and Mid tiers(from tobiroppo people to the allstars people) ginormnossauros unless we find a way to bridge this gap with more multipliers and make everyone in the post time skip downscale in some way shape or form from the tier 5 stuff
Sorry for the lateness in reply, had some uni stuff to do. Ty for keeping it respectfull and sorry if I failed to do that in any way.
 
No wonder Ratatosk is top 1 of the verse 💪🐿️
whats-your-favorite-sandy-cheeks-freeze-frame-v0-6k426u3x4iad1.png
 
Since the potential candidate for the God of Forest (Ryokugyu's DF) seems no longer relevant as of now (or will be), I think Oda will focus more into the God of War
 
vice captain application
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Izuku Midoriya vs Sanji [0-0-0]

his wings couldnt cut it Deku (Final War Arc) Attack Potency: 18.65 Teratons with Full Cowl, up to 93.25 Teratons with Fa Jin and Gearshift Durability: 18.65 Teratons with Full Cowl, higher with Blackwhip Lifting Strength: 165.96 Trillion Metric Tons with Full Cowl, higher with Blackwhip and...
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Alabasta 7-C Scaling Downgrade

Because of this calculation, we're assuming Pell's durability is 7-C. Then we scale Robin, who defeated Pell, and those scaled to him to this level. I found a significant error here. The Pell form that Robin damages is not the Zoan form. It only prevents him from flapping his wings and then...
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KNOCKOUT PHASE|VSBW AURA FARMING LEAGUE

Ladies and Gentlemen, we reached Elimination Rounds of VAL Previous Threads: https://vsbattles.com/threads/unofficial-vsbw-aura-farming-tournament.189361/ https://vsbattles.com/threads/aura-farming-tournament-announcement.189424/ Group Stage was full of tension, drama, action. And this is how...
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Kachon123 said:
What feat would Akainu need to get for you to change your mind on his current powerscaling? Any that you believe have a chance of actually happening?
Click to expand...
EXACTLY BRO. THOSE ADMIRALS AND AKAINU DOWNPLAYERS COULD SEE AKAINU ONESHOTTING IMU AND THEY STILL WOULD DOWNPLAY THE GOAT.
 
Akainu can't even successfully kill Kuma what hope does he have of killing or beating Garp?
 
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