One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

[RoronoaxRobin]

Because Zoro with Buso was drastically superior to Lucci, and we have Awakened Lucci at G5 level. The two were also flat-out even without Buso.

When did Zoro ever fight Awakened Lucci without Buso?

 

[SlendVeny]

When did Zoro every fight Awakened Lucci without Buso?

Egghead

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Egghead

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Lucci should’ve just downscaled from a non serious gear 5… and now that we have good representation of his power, he should scale fully to two sword style with no buso. Boom gg

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

It's just that Luffy's admittance to Zoro of him always fighting seriously leads me to believe that while he won't use every move, every amp, and every ability in his arsenal to beat someone, he doesn't hold back his punches. So Awakened Lucci should downscale from normal Gear 5 punches and then to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka (since Luffy is always using CoA Haki with every blow, it's just that he's using normal armament and not hardening in most cases) when he uses Buso Koka as well, and the reason Gear 5 stomps him despite being comparable in AP is cause Luffy is faster, has better CoO haki and Haki overall, and his fighting style is too freeform for Lucci (who's much more straightforward in his fighting style) to compete with. And Luffy's stretch punches are insane (stretch as in when he stretches the enemy, since those blows cause internal damage to the enemy on top of impact damage).

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Like Lucci ain't equal to Luffy, but he's not garbage, it's just that Gear 5 Luffy is a complete monster of a fighter to compete against.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

So I think Awakened Lucci is ~< Base Gear 5, and Awakened Lucci w/ Buso Koka is ~ to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka in AP, but Luffy is faster, has a very hard to fight fighting style, and has so many amps that Lucci can't compete, simple as that.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Like to name all the amps I can remember, Luffy has CoC coating which is a huge buff, CoA hardening which is a pretty good buff, can use Internal Destruction to harm an enemies insides with Haki, he can enlarge his limbs which does increase the AP of his strikes, he can utilize momentum to amplify the force of his punches by spinning like with Dawn Rocket, Down Whip, and Star Gun, can forcefully stretch an enemy which causes both impact damage on top of internal damage, and probably some other stuff I'm missing. And he can combine multiple of these, if not all them to make devastating attacks.

Like it's actually nuts how many ways Luffy can amp his attacks, and Lucci at his best is only able to match Gear 5 when Luffy is only using a Buso Koka amp.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

So I think Awakened Lucci is ~< Base Gear 5, and Awakened Lucci w/ Buso Koka is ~ to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka in AP, but Luffy is faster, has a very hard to fight fighting style, and has so many amps that Lucci can't compete, simple as that.

Isn't this how we already had Lucci's scaling?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I know I'm yapping, but Lucci literally only matched a normal Gear 5 armament punch (as in no stretching, which does increase the force of his punches, or any other Gear 5 shenanigans, Luffy literally threw a regular punch that any normal human can throw) with his own armament punch.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Like to name all the amps I can remember, Luffy has CoC coating which is a huge buff, CoA hardening which is a pretty good buff, can use Internal Destruction to harm an enemies insides with Haki, he can enlarge his limbs which does increase the AP of his strikes, he can utilize momentum to amplify the force of his punches by spinning like with Dawn Rocket, Down Whip, and Star Gun, can forcefully stretch an enemy which causes both impact damage on top of internal damage, and probably some other stuff I'm missing. And he can combine multiple of these, if not all them to make devastating attacks.

Like it's actually nuts how many ways Luffy can amp his attacks, and Lucci at his best is only able to match Gear 5 when Luffy is only using a Buso Koka amp.

There's also Luffy's laugh amp, which is what mainly turned the tide in the Luffy vs. Lucci fight.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Isn't this how we already had Lucci's scaling?

Ye, but it's also how I believe it to be.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

I know I'm yapping, but Lucci literally matched a normal Gear 5 armament punch (as in no stretching, which does increase the force of his punches or any other Gear 5 shenanigans, Luffy literally threw a regular punch that any normal human can throw) with his own armament punch.

I don't think you're yapping, you actually reminded me some things I forgot about lol

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

There's also Luffy's laugh amp, which is what mainly turned the tide in the Luffy vs. Lucci fight.

Jesus, I forgot about that amp lol. Luffy in Gear 5 is a genuine monster .

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

All of this is why I think it's fine for Lucci or Zoro or other characters to scale to Base Gear 5 or Gear 5 with Buso Koka, since Luffy has like 10 ******* amps or so, that it doesn't negatively impact him lol.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I don't think you're yapping, you actually reminded me some things I forgot about lol

I think I am, but I'm happy that I can help remind you of some details.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Jesus, I forgot about that amp lol. Luffy in Gear 5 is a genuine monster .

As time goes on, I have more and more respect for Kaido being able to repeatedly get the upper hand over him.

 

[SlendVeny]

It's just that Luffy's admittance to Zoro of him always fighting seriously leads me to believe that while he won't use every move, every amp, and every ability in his arsenal to beat someone, he doesn't hold back his punches. So Awakened Lucci should downscale from normal Gear 5 punches and then to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka (since Luffy is always using CoA Haki with every blow, it's just that he's using normal armament and not hardening in most cases) when he uses Buso Koka as well, and the reason Gear 5 stomps him despite being comparable in AP is cause Luffy is faster, has better CoO haki and Haki overall, and his fighting style is too freeform for Lucci (who's much more straightforward in his fighting style) to compete with. And Luffy's stretch punches are insane (stretch as in when he stretches the enemy, since those blows cause internal damage to the enemy on top of impact damage).

I sincerely doubt Luffy is going all-out all the time. He can fight seriously without throwing down at full force. I'm pretty sure he actively beats children and small animals at certain points, and they don't scale to him.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

All of this is why I think it's fine for Lucci or Zoro or other characters to scale to Base Gear 5 or Gear 5 with Buso Koka, since Luffy has like 10 ******* amps or so, that it doesn't negatively impact him lol.

I agree

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I sincerely doubt Luffy is going all-out all the time. He can fight seriously without throwing down at full force. I'm pretty sure he actively beats children and small animals at certain points, and they don't scale to him.

I'm pretty sure that against those children and Animals, he's just beating them, not actually fighting like with Lucci. The only way that Luffy's serious statement can be truthful is if he's not holding back his punches or if he's using everything in his arsenal, and he clearly doesn't do the latter, so it has to be the formal or else Luffy's a liar and Luffy's a crappy liar.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Jesus, I forgot about that amp lol. Luffy in Gear 5 is a genuine monster .

Like going back to the Lucci fight, Lucci is only able to hang on against Luffy's stretched punches or with Luffy's hardening normal punch, anytime Luffy uses anything more than 1 or 2 amps, he ***** him up (like with Dawn Rocket being a stretched + momentum/spinning + enemy stretch punch, + Buso if we take the anime). The best attack Lucci withstood was the Dawn Whip, and even then that shit sent him flying and spinning.

 

[SlendVeny]

I'm pretty sure that against those children and Animals, he's just beating them, not actually fighting like with Lucci. The only way that Luffy's serious statement can be truthful is if he's not holding back his punches or if he's using everything in his arsenal, and he clearly doesn't do the latter, so it has to be the formal or else Luffy's a liar and Luffy's a crappy liar.

Or he means he's just not underestimating people.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's just that Luffy's admittance to Zoro of him always fighting seriously leads me to believe that while he won't use every move, every amp, and every ability in his arsenal to beat someone, he doesn't hold back his punches. So Awakened Lucci should downscale from normal Gear 5 punches and then to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka (since Luffy is always using CoA Haki with every blow, it's just that he's using normal armament and not hardening in most cases) when he uses Buso Koka as well, and the reason Gear 5 stomps him despite being comparable in AP is cause Luffy is faster, has better CoO haki and Haki overall, and his fighting style is too freeform for Lucci (who's much more straightforward in his fighting style) to compete with. And Luffy's stretch punches are insane (stretch as in when he stretches the enemy, since those blows cause internal damage to the enemy on top of impact damage).

Luffy never said he always fights seriously to zoro, he said he's always max effort

After this Zoro said to Lucci that he doesn't have a chance of actually fighting luffy, if this is his best... suggesting that he didn't actually fight luffy, making the assumption of luffy being max effort in fighting with Lucci not true

There's also this panel of the strawhats telling him to go easy... (Not sure how that's been ignored and forgotten)

 

[That_moron2]

Egghead

He didn’t.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He did.

 

[That_moron2]

He did.

Nuh-uh. I’ll save that argument for the CRT.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also... In terms of speed, what Zoro did to Lucci is insane, Lucci is someone with insane speed and speed related skills yet Zoro was able to easily dodge his barrages of attacks and potentially blitz him with that buso attack

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Nuh-uh. I’ll save that argument for the CRT.

That's not gonna be accepted and will be a full waste of time... Don't know why your mind acts like this...

Giving a CRT that much importance over the truth is insane

Like if I had the same mindset as you, I would have no purpose in life

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I forgot the speed aspect. That should be removed from Lucci's profile too tbh

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Luffy never said he always fights seriously to zoro, he said he's always max effort

Wouldn't that be the same as being serious? He's saying he's putting his max effort into fights, which means he's not holding back. Of course since he didn't use his full arsenal, it should point towards Luffy not holding back the force of his punches.

After this Zoro said to Lucci that he doesn't have a chance of actually fighting luffy, if this is his best... suggesting that he didn't actually fight luffy, making the assumption of luffy being max effort in fighting with Lucci not true

Well yeah, Lucci is barely able to match Base Gear 5 and Gear 5 with Buso Koka, any combination of amps is more than enough to take care of Lucci easy peasy. After all I'm not saying he's equal to Gear 5 overall, only that he's comparable in AP with Gear 5 regular stretchy punches and regular Buso punches, that's it.

There's also this panel of the strawhats telling him to go easy... (Not sure how that's been ignored and forgotten)

They're worried because Luffy is recklessly fighting Lucci and they're in harms way as well as the researchers, and because Luffy is basically picking a fight with the government by fighting Lucci, and since he's an emperor now, that could lead into a war. They aren't saying to go easy on Lucci because they're worried about Lucci's safety.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I forgot the speed aspect. That should be removed from Lucci's profile too tbh

... Nah he should scale to base Zoro but downscale and then give Zoro a Far higher with that attack

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Like I feel like we shouldn't view Gear 5 as this one solid buff or entity, when it's power just fluctuates depending on what Luffy is doing.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

... Nah he should scale to base Zoro but downscale and then give Zoro a Far higher with that attack

He also scales to G5 though. This is contradictory

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Like to name all the amps I can remember, Luffy has CoC coating which is a huge buff, CoA hardening which is a pretty good buff, can use Internal Destruction to harm an enemies insides with Haki, he can enlarge his limbs which does increase the AP of his strikes, he can utilize momentum to amplify the force of his punches by spinning like with Dawn Rocket, Down Whip, and Star Gun, can forcefully stretch an enemy which causes both impact damage on top of internal damage, and probably some other stuff I'm missing. And he can combine multiple of these, if not all them to make devastating attacks.

Like it's actually nuts how many ways Luffy can amp his attacks, and Lucci at his best is only able to match Gear 5 when Luffy is only using a Buso Koka amp.

Luffy has this many buffs as well as the laugh amp, that Lucci's best is only matching Gear 5's lower power output.

So I think Awakened Lucci is ~< Base Gear 5, and Awakened Lucci w/ Buso Koka is ~ to Gear 5 w/ Buso Koka in AP, but Luffy is faster, has a very hard to fight fighting style, and has so many amps that Lucci can't compete, simple as that.

Heck I think this is a pretty damn straightforward explanation as to how Lucci can have comparable AP while still being stomped.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Wouldn't that be the same as being serious? He's saying he's putting his max effort into fights, which means he's not holding back. Of course since he didn't use his full arsenal, it should point towards Luffy not holding back the force of his punches.

he never even said fights as well, that's also more steps of assumption and another step in assuming it's not hyperbole

Sure if he's actually fighting someone, yes... He'll use max effort, but there's proof against him being max effort and proof against him actually fighting Lucci, meaning all it would be is being max effort in distracting luffy and not fighting

Well yeah, Lucci is barely able to match Base Gear 5 and Gear 5 with Buso Koka, any combination of amps is more than enough to take care of Lucci easy peasy. After all I'm not saying he's equal to Gear 5 overall, only that he's comparable in AP with Gear 5 regular stretchy punches and regular Buso punches, that's it.

Still, saying Lucci being equal to buso gear 5 when luffy is taking it easy is disingenuous

They're worried because Luffy is recklessly fighting Lucci and they're in harms way as well as the researchers, and because Luffy is basically picking a fight with the government by fighting Lucci, and since he's an emperor now, that could lead into a war. They aren't saying to go easy on Lucci because they're worried about Lucci's safety.

Which would still mean he's taking it easy, it being for lucci's sake or not doesn't matter

 

[DaMonkeMan]

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He also scales to G5 though. This is contradictory

no it's not... You can still be slower than someone and scale... The only way you don't scale is if you get completely outpaced or blitzed

Like I feel like we shouldn't view Gear 5 as this one solid buff or entity, when it's power just fluctuates depending on what Luffy is doing.

yee but he's also a beast in just base gear 5... Base gear 5 isn't like INSANELY inferior to his amps

Gear 5's base power is > gear 4 still

Luffy has this many buffs as well as the laugh amp, that Lucci's best is only matching Gear 5's lower power output.

Heck I think this is a pretty damn straightforward explanation as to how Lucci can have comparable AP while still being stomped.

I just think your ignoring the context and intentions and only viewing the visuals and making assumptions with those visuals

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

he never even said fights as well, that's also more steps of assumption and another step in assuming it's not hyperbole

You're right that it's not specifically fighting so I'll concede on that.

Sure if he's actually fighting someone, yes... He'll use max effort, but there's proof against him being max effort and proof against him actually fighting Lucci, meaning all it would be is being max effort in distracting luffy and not fighting

Like I've said before, Luffy isn't a liar, so the only way his Max effort stuff could make sense is if he wasn't holding back his punches. I won't argue much on this part.

Still, saying Lucci being equal to buso gear 5 when luffy is taking it easy is disingenuous

But we don't know if he's actually taking it easy though, his friends just plead for him to go easy.

Which would still mean he's taking it easy, it being for lucci's sake or not doesn't matter

They plead for him to take it easy, but that doesn't mean he did take it easy, and Luffy doesn't even respond to them when they asked him, likely implying he's too distracted with Lucci.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

yee but he's also a beast in just base gear 5... Base gear 5 isn't like INSANELY inferior to his amps

Gear 5's base power is > gear 4 still

Awakened Lucci > Gear 4 .
You right that Base Gear 5 is insane, but Gear 5 with multiple amps is absolutely nutty AF compared to base Gear 5.

I just think your ignoring the context and intentions and only viewing the visuals and making assumptions with those visuals

Well the visuals of the fight matter too, but the context from what I understood shows that Luffy ain't going all out, but he's not really holding his punches (or at least not significantly so).

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But we don't know if he's actually taking it easy though, his friends just plead for him to go easy.

They plead for him to take it easy, but that doesn't mean he did take it easy, and Luffy doesn't even respond to them when they asked him, likely implying he's too distracted with Lucci.

we literally do tho... Since when has luffy ever joked around sleeping against either Doffy, Katakuri or Kaido? That's not something he's ever done when he's serious especially fighting

The only other time is against this guy...