One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

[Kachon123]

Long post warning, sorry.

Spoiler: Ace vs Kizzy

There's a very interesting thing I've been thinking about. I feel like Ace might be able to beat Kizaru. Marineford Kizaru for sure, since he wasn't as strong. However, Kizaru in general is at a huge disadvantage.

I don't think he can coat light in Haki, and fire isn't weak to light, nor light to fire. They both have fairly similar fighting styles, centered around overwhelming their opponent with speed, range, and mobility, while also creating constructs, but there's an issue. Ace has better physical tactics, and Kizaru uses ranged attacks, so Ace's fighting style is more relevant here.

First off, there's the question of power. Kizaru could hold his own against G5 Luffy, albeit only though his hax abilities. I don't think Ace could beat Luffy. Now, here's the issue about Ace's power. The only feats we have are clashing with Whitebeard for a small amount of damage while he was Oldbeard, and before Ace joined the crew fully, fighting Blackbeard(nearly beating him, with Blackbeard winning because Ace let him get back up every time he went down, and because Ace had no prior knowledge, and without us seeing the end. For all we know, Ace wrecked his shit, then everyone else jumped him with Haki on.), fighting Aokiji and Akainu(After being imprisoned, barely fed or given water, kept in stamina-draining seastone cuffs, etc.), and even then, he lost because the guy with an elemental advantage targeted his brother(Akainu lost his arm, too, iirc, and idk why). I think they might be pretty even here, especially considering Kizaru was only fighting G5 with pretty much no Haki, and never fought Boundman, which should be superior to no-Haki G5 in terms of Anti-Logia AP, just off the fact that he has Haki on in that state.

Next up is speed. Kizaru fought G5 Luffy, and the speed he showed is pretty much the only reason he kept up. Ace easily intercepted Akainu's punch(while weakened, as I said before), and could accelerate enough to dodge out casual Oldbeard when he joined the crew a long time ago. I don't really see much of an advantage either way, and the only guy who directly upscales off Ace's feats is Sengoku iirc, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of scaling. Weakened Ace was also roughly comparable to Aokiji in speed with normal attacks, so Egghead Kizaru and him should be even at full power. However, Ace's normal attacks are all very much FTL, and Kizaru's ranged attacks are almost all LS or just a little FTL.

Now, we get to the LS conversation. Kizaru wins there.

Next up is Durability. I'll give Kizaru this one, but it shouldn't be that much different.

Stamina is here to save the day, woo-hoo. I'll give it to Kizaru, but it should be noted that Ace scaled off fighting Jinbe for 5 days in his first fight with Whitebeard, he did it 100 times, then he got even stronger.

Range! Ace has 10km, he wins.

Equipment: Den Den Mushi vs knife, pretty even, but the Den Den Mushi not being fireproof means Ace has better gear.

Buso: Kizaru

Kenbun: Ace is really good with it, and Kiz has no feats.

Hao: Ace

Experience: Kizaru has more, but Ace has been in more fights where he actually had to try.

Skill: Unknown, we can't really quantify either.

Intelligence: Kizaru.

Basically, I think this is a really close fight, but Ace has the advantage in terms of powers, and his Haoshoku would give him time to actually land a hit in the middle of the fight.

Kizaru destroys wtf

He has far better AP: Clashing with Gear 5 Luffy and KOing Gear 4 Luffy with a single attack
Far better speed: Easily outmaneuvering Whitebeard, faster than Snakeman Luffy.
Better Buso
Relative Kenbun
Hao is a non-factor due to the lack of Advanced Hao from Ace
Far better durability: Nearly having his neck broken by a non-amped punch form Blackbeard, nearly getting knocked out by a Gura punch from Whitebeard vs easily blocking hits from Gear 4 and Gear 5 Luffy, and taking a Star Gun without much external injuries (seems to be unable to move because of Saturn?)
Far better Hax: Clones??? Danmaku??? Heat???

It's really not close here. Ace doesn't have a single stat above Kizaru, let alone a viable wincon.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You can, but it doesn't have physical matter. He would have to condense it.

Hmm? It doesn't need to be condensed?

If kizaru shoots a laser at a random logia, he'll get hit

It's kinda similar to how zoro cut monet with the flying slash

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Stamina is here to save the day, woo-hoo. I'll give it to Kizaru, but it should be noted that Ace scaled off fighting Jinbe for 5 days in his first fight with Whitebeard, he did it 100 times, then he got even stronger.

Ace should have the better stamina between them

 

[Popbum]

(seems to be unable to move because of Saturn?)

Where’d you get this from? He said he wasn’t getting up any time soon from luffy’s attack and the other marines seem to be able to move perfectly fine.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Clashing with Gear 5 Luffy and KOing Gear 4 Luffy with a single attack

Never happened

faster than Snakeman Luffy.

With acceleration

vs easily blocking hits from Gear 4 and Gear 5 Luffy, and taking a Star Gun without much external injuries (seems to be unable to move because of Saturn?)

Only blocked gear 4 attack, and it wasn't easily... Kizaru view them as quite powerful

He got one shot by gear 5, he didn't tank anything and saturn himself said it was because of luffy/nika fruit

Otherwise everything else ok

 

[Kachon123]

Never happened

Yes it did.

With acceleration

He was easily reacting to and blocking attacks from Snakeman Luffy, and was even able to dodge hundreds of meters away before Luffy noticed (this was without acceleration).

Only blocked gear 4 attack, and it wasn't easily... Kizaru view them as quite powerful

Just because Kizaru acknowledged Luffy as strong, that doesn't mean he wasn't doing so easily. Also, he did block attacks from Gear 5 Luffy.

He got one shot by gear 5

This is a cope. He got PUT DOWN by an amped attack from Gear 5 Luffy. He clearly is not done. Especially when we compare Luffy and Kizaru's current conditions, it's clear that at the very least, Kizaru is better off. He's not bleeding anywhere, and is literally just sitting down.

This is also ignoring the fact that Kizaru was nerfed this entire time (stating that he can't go all out in fear of destroying Vegapunk's tech, his mission being to go after Vegapunk and not necessarily defeat Luffy while Luffy was actively trying to take Kizaru out, stating that he's having mental troubles since he has to take down people he cares about like Sentomaru, Bonney, and Vegapunk)


Regardless of if you think Luffy is stronger than Kizaru or not (I personally do), it's impossible to argue that Kizaru is far inferior to any form of Luffy that isn't named Gear 5, and that alone puts him way above Ace.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes it

Luffy vs lasers

did.

Luffy himself said it only pushed luffy away and also only states that the barrier damaged him... So no

He was easily reacting to and blocking attacks from Snakeman Luffy

By standing still and shooting...

and was even able to dodge hundreds of meters away before Luffy noticed (this was without acceleration).

Luffy did notice, just was confused why he flew away... And of course turning to something as small as photons and running away will be insanely hard to hit... And still luffy didn't even try to, he stopped the attack and didn't continue attacking once he flew away

Just because Kizaru acknowledged Luffy as strong, that doesn't mean he wasn't doing so easily.

He called his gear 4 punch very powerful stuff and we're seen him shaking from it... So no he wasn't easily blocking it at all

This is a cope. He got PUT DOWN by an amped attack from Gear 5 Luffy.

One shot and left him immobilized/Actual KO

He clearly is not done. Especially when we compare Luffy and Kizaru's current conditions, it's clear that at the very least, Kizaru is better off. He's not bleeding anywhere, and is literally just sitting down.

getting concussed has nothing to do with bleeding and he's sitting because he can't do anything else as he's still recovering from the attack... That's how concussions work
Luffy is tired and exhausted, kizaru is hurt... Not comparable

This is also ignoring the fact that Kizaru was nerfed this entire time (stating that he can't go all out in fear of destroying Vegapunk's tech, his mission being to go after Vegapunk and not necessarily defeat Luffy while Luffy was actively trying to take Kizaru out, stating that he's having mental troubles since he has to take down people he cares about like Sentomaru, Bonney, and Vegapunk)

I'm going to view this as cap until I've seen proof

It's viewed as an actual match up between luffy and kizaru from an outside source

四皇〝麦わら〟VS海軍大将〝黄猿〟!!
———————————
Fourth Emperor "Mugwara" vs Navy General "Yellow Monkey"!

so until proof saying he's nerfed or holding back and shit will just cap, especially when he used a charged up acceleration attack as well

 

[Kachon123]

Lmao. Realized who I was debating with.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Lmao. Realized who I was debating with.

With truth.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Like why do people have biases toward kizaru like wtf?

Since when was he a sanji to kachon?

 

[Kachon123]

No one is biased towards Kizaru I literally said that I believe that Luffy is stronger than he is.

I just think that it's disingenuous to say that Kizaru is far below Luffy, and even worse to put him in the same discussion as Ace.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I just think that it's disingenuous to say that Kizaru is far below Luffy

Far below gear 5 only

and even worse to put him in the same discussion as Ace.

True...

Tho ace did some stuff with Yamato ... But I don't think that shows much which will benefit him against kizaru

 

[Kachon123]

Far below gear 5 only

I still don't see this to be the case, but we can agree to disagree. Like I said above, this still makes him a lot stronger than Ace.

it's impossible to argue that Kizaru is far inferior to any form of Luffy that isn't named Gear 5, and that alone puts him way above Ace.

Tho ace did some stuff with Yamato

Base Yamato is a Sasaki vicim unfortunately.

 

[Nierre]

Yamato scaling to Kaido to this day is a crime

 

[Kachon123]

Yamato scaling to Kaido to this day is a crime

It'll be fixed soon (alongside other atrocious scaling)

 

[Nierre]

It'll be fixed soon (alongside other atrocious scaling)

I USED TO PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THIS

 

[Ped2018]

KT is not gonna let this happen

 

[Kachon123]

He does NOT care

 

[Nierre]

KT isn't the end all be all lol

 

[Ped2018]

What are the arguments for Yamato not scaling to Kaido anyway?

 

[SlendVeny]

Kizaru destroys wtf

He has far better AP: Clashing with Gear 5 Luffy and KOing Gear 4 Luffy with a single attack

He has better AP, but typically just with his light techniques. Also, he didn't KO Luffy, he sent him flying through the barriers, and then Luffy came back through the barriers. Besides, you provided 2 examples. One was of Luffy not hitting him, and one was of him kicking a blinded Luffy(btw, why does launching a guy with a kick count as an AP feat for Kizaru, but not Marco?)

Far better speed: Easily outmaneuvering Whitebeard, faster than Snakeman Luffy.

Outmaneuvering Sickbeard is not that much better than scaling off Kuzan while weakened, or intercepting Akainu's attack at a speed that is absolutely comparable or higher.

Better Buso

Yes.

Relative Kenbun

No. He has no Kenbun feats, and Ace is shown to be very good with Kenbun.

Hao is a non-factor due to the lack of Advanced Hao from Ace

It's enough to slow him down from a split instant.

Far better durability: Nearly having his neck broken by a non-amped punch form Blackbeard

Didn't BB yank him over with Gravity beforehand?

nearly getting knocked out by a Gura punch from Whitebeard

Years before his peak

vs easily blocking hits from Gear 4

Through speed

and Gear 5 Luffy

No he wasn't, G5 is explicitly superior

and taking a Star Gun without much external injuries

He literally got knocked out, Luffy won, cope.

Far better Hax: Clones??? Danmaku??? Heat???

Proof lasers can damage fire?

 

[SlendVeny]

No one is biased towards Kizaru

Bro, you acted like Kizaru took the White Star Gun completely fine while Luffy got onetapped by a single kick.

 

[Popbum]

Bro, you acted like Kizaru took the White Star Gun completely fine while Luffy got onetapped by a single kick.

Kizaru didn’t one tap luffy at all he got knocked back heavily and was damaged boy the barriers doubt kizaru kick did much too luffy.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No. He has no Kenbun feats, and Ace is shown to be very good with Kenbun.

He has the enhanced hearing feat from hearing Moby dick from afar under the water and yee

Oh and presence sensing saturn

 

[SlendVeny]

I genuinely think people underestimate the Whitebeard Commanders. I don't think most of them are Yonkou level, or can beat Kizaru, but the best among them aren't just getting annihilated by him.

Jozu was fighting Aokiji, he only last because he got taken by surprise and doesn't have resistance to being frozen(Idk why people treat Aokiji freezing people as him AP stomping them)

Vista doesn't really have much to scale off, we don't know what was going on with Mihawk. We do know he can cut Akainu, but that was one hit, we didn't see much.

Marco isn't someone I want to bring up, because I am very tired of hearing about Queen's bullet scaling.

And I genuinely believe Ace to be the strongest commander to ever be in the force. Except one.

Because the strongest WB commander is KOZUKI ODEN!! My mans is among the best of the best swordsmen. This guy is top 10 commanders in any pirate crew ever, and Kizaru certainly isn't clearing half of that top 10 list. I mean, could he beat Oden? Maybe, but he's dying afterward imo.

 

[Popbum]

Nvm I just read what you said.

 

[SlendVeny]

He has the enhanced hearing feat from hearing Moby dick from afar under the water and yee

Yeah, but that's worse than just upscaling off Vice Admirals

 

[Damage3245]

Yamato scaling to Kaido to this day is a crime

X Drake scaling in any way to Yamato is a crime.

 

[SlendVeny]

Kizaru didn’t one tap luffy at all he got knocked back heavily and was damaged boy the barriers doubt kizaru kick did much too luffy.

Oh, I meant Kachon was implying that

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Wano scaling is a crime.

Because I wasn't there to spread the truth

 

[SlendVeny]

Wano scaling is a crime.

Because I wasn't there to spread the truth

Wano scaling would be drastically improved by more Base Luffy.

 

[Fireld]

Hmm? It doesn't need to be condensed?

If kizaru shoots a laser at a random logia, he'll get hit

It's kinda similar to how zoro cut monet with the flying slash

Or how WB's flying slash & shockwaves could hit Ace

Vista doesn't really have much to scale off

He could scale to or above of scabbards with the whole "top tier twin bladed swordsman" statement.

 

[Ped2018]

Kachon being a Admiral simp is surprising

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not an Admiral simp

How does me saying that Ace > Kizaru is a bad take make me and Admiralstan

 

[Crobatman44]

Kachon being a Admiral simp is surprising

If he was an admiral simp we would already have tier 0 Akainu wdym?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Insane glazing

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

One Piece Chapter 1104 Spoilers

Friday the thread will be updated with fan translations for the chapter and on Sunday the official release will be out. Link to Spoilers: https://worstgen.alwaysdata.net/forum/threads/one-piece-chapter-1104-spoiler-summaries-and-images.52098/ Discussions not related to the chapter should be...

vsbattles.com

Newest chapter spoilers

 

[SlendVeny]

I'm not an Admiral simp

How does me saying that Ace > Kizaru is a bad take make me and Admiralstan

I didn't say Ace > Kizaru, I was just saying that's a bad matchup for Kizaru.

 

[SlendVeny]

Hmm? It doesn't need to be condensed?

If kizaru shoots a laser at a random logia, he'll get hit

It's kinda similar to how zoro cut monet with the flying slash

Flying slashes are different, that's physical matter, the air, coming directly out of the solid sword. I suppose you could argue that he can just override the Logia Power solely through having that level of Haki without coating anything in it, though.

 

[SlendVeny]

He could scale to or above of scabbards with the whole "top tier twin bladed swordsman" statement.

Oh, he does. I was looking for like, his full power so far.