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One Piece: Black Hole Mechanics

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Me: I know this shit isn't a real black hole, but because of the escape velocity formula I can find its mass
VSBW: I disagree with the notion in the OP that this is a black hole
Yeah, no. If you agree that it's gravity manipulation, and not actual incredibly dense matter generating an event horizon (i.e. a black hole), then you have no leg to stand on for your estimation of the mass. I explained as much.
As said, your escape velocity approach is just reinventing the Schwarzschild radius formula. As it stands, you use all the black hole stuff in the calculation, but claim that you know it's not a black hole to not run into the black hole standards. If you assume that Blackbeard's darkness is an object of incredibly dense mass, with that mass producing gravity so strong that not even light can escape, then you are just saying in different words that you think Blackbeard is controlling a black hole. And, if so, it should be held to the black hole standards.
On the other hand, if you're not saying it's that, then your calculations don't work.
Yall need to be on the same damn page then

Cause first Damage came and said that he can willingly activate the mass aspect of the attack, and when that mass is manifested, the gravity absorbs it. On top of that, he doesn't believe it can genuinely absorb light. This would mean that the gravity is dependent on the mass, and the gravity not manifesting until he "activates said mass" shows that the mass is the reason for the gravity.

Then next, DT came and spoke about how gravity manipulators don't need to generate mass in order to manipulate gravity, and then he said that although it has shape doesn't mean that it doesn't have artificial gravity, contradicting Damage's point about how it has mass, and the mass generates gravity, but it's just not constant. On top of that, he notes the quotes of him being able to attract light, something Damage disagrees with. He also notes that it does have infinite gravity, but the properties of said infinite gravity aren't akin to realistic black hole effects.

Then finally Deceived manifested himself into the thread, noting how he aligns with DT's point about how it doesn't necessarily copy the Black Hole's property of having that gravity through the generated mass mass (contradicting Damage's argument), but then he says that the infinite gravity point isn't actually infinite gravity (contradicting DT's point).

Then they're all contradicted by the simple facts of the series.
Blackbeard's darkness has mass. It doesn't just manifest gravity, it is tangible and it can push things.
Damage's point about its changing mass are accurate, because it can move through the ground and not affect it, but when it increases in its density, it gains more darkness and starts to absorb.
The darkness isn't the gravity. The darkness generates its own gravity. So Blackbeard doesn't just "generate gravity", it generates darkness which generates gravity.
The mechanics of the innards of his dimension are unknown and don't need to necessarily output that effect in its pocket dimension, as black holes don't have pocket dimensions, and it's one of the few things that differ between BB's black hole and realistic black holes.
Blackbeard's mechanic is specifically tied to the real world application of it, as it says

And Oda making an entire magazine page to just say "they both absorb light and they both have gravitational forces" and him giving a full explanation on how black holes do what they do because of mass... and not correlating it to the other because it's not verbatimly stated.
He didn't say that the gravitational portion of BB's Black Hole technique was akin to irl black holes because it can absorb things, but he specifically said that the part of how it attracts light is what's similar to an irl black hole.


So basically.
You all disagree for completely different reasons, and somehow you each manage to support my argument by essentially damaging each others' points.
Honestly, there really is no need for all of us to reject it for the same reasons. We are each doing our individual analysis and reach our conclusion for ourselves. It's not like we have organized to debate this together.

Let me further say that not believing the infinite gravity thing is in no real contradiction to my points. One of my points was how his gravitation clearly doesn't match the predicted value. That the gravity isn't actually infinite is perfectly in line with how the stuff doesn't get crushed inside the darkness. And it also fits with the whole aspect of it not matching an actual mass thing, as such a dense mass object would have inescapable gravity past the point at which light can't escape due to its gravity anymore (i.e. the black hole past the event horizon should have unresistible (in some sense infinite) gravity).

Neither do I inherently see a problem with Damage's statement. Worst case, it's not relevant until my argument is disproven, but becomes relevant then.
But, in general, I didn't say that Blackbeard's darkness has no mass at all. I said it evidently doesn't have the mass you predict it to have. It could have some degree of mass for entirely unrelated reasons. That also answers your point about it having mass. Although, your showings don't really proof it being tangible and having mass. All they show is that they are able to project force on things. And... given that it can push things out of itself it clearly can project force on things in ways completely unrelated to it being tangible or having gravity.

The darkness generating gravity adds nothing to your argument. It's like saying "my laser is real, because I don't generate the laser, my magic staff generates the laser!" Not that the argument even makes sense, as this is a logia fruit, meaning that Blackbeard is the darkness.
Anyway, the point is, that the darkness generating the gravity in no way implies that it's not done supernaturally rather than through actual mass. Especially, as the gravity of said darkness clearly can supernaturally be controlled to sometimes be present and sometimes not. There is really no argument that no supernatural stuff is going on with the gravity.

And again, no it doesn't say Blackbeard's technique works like a black hole. It only says that the way the darkness swallows light is like a black hole.

Furthermore, if you acknowledge that the darkness is actually an entrance to a pocket dimension your point stands even less. As then it isn't an event horizon anymore, like your calc assumed. The volume of the portal leading into the pocket dimension (which Blackbeard's darkness would then function as) would have no real bearing on the volume of a black hole inside of it. I.e. you couldn't quantify black hole mass from the darkness.
It obviously also completely negates the KE idea to begin with, as it would be the entrance to a pocket dimension moving, rather than the mass in it.

And Oda didn't make that page for the purpose you say. It's just a page that is supposed to present interesting science facts and how Oda might have been inspired by them. That's why it also features explanations completely irrelevant for the manga, like "The telescope used to take this photograph has a resolution equivalent to three million human visual acuity." or the entire rest of the first few paragraphs. It's an immense reach to correlate these explanations where the text itself didn't. Arguably, the fact that Oda gave such a detailed explanation and then decided to not mention any connection other than "they both absorb light", even noting that specifically "This part of the technique is similar to that of a celestial black hole" and not anything else, makes it sound more as if he meant for it to specifically not be taken to be black hole like in any other way.
But ultimately that's subjective and we should keep to what the text is actually saying.

Anyway, none of us is contradicting each other in any way that would support your argument.
kt ninja'd me on pretty much everything relevant i wanted to say, but blackbeard states he can turn the things he sucks in into nothingness. if he does or not depends on if he chooses to, like what's been argued multiple times here.
Which just supports even more that it's really just magical gravity? It goes to show that not even in the pocket dimension inside the darkness an actual event horizon is generally present. And that the gravity produced couldn't come from directly inside a black hole (or "object of incredible density which produces gravity so strong that not even light can escape" if you prefer the paraphrasing), as otherwise, the stuff would be inside the black hole the moment it enters.
Also, a black hole doesn't turn things into nothingness. It just disintegrates.
 
Which just supports even more that it's really just magical gravity? It goes to show that not even in the pocket dimension inside the darkness an actual event horizon is generally present. And that the gravity produced couldn't come from directly inside a black hole (or "object of incredible density which produces gravity so strong that not even light can escape" if you prefer the paraphrasing), as otherwise, the stuff would be inside the black hole the moment it enters.
Also, a black hole doesn't turn things into nothingness. It just disintegrates.
There's already a devil fruit that produces artifical gravity, being the zushi zushi no mi. Paramecia types are artifical types, while logias are natural types, blackbeard's power being the latter. I'd like to compare the darkness fruit to kirby. He an either save objects for later use, or completely absorb them. not an antifeat.

Well disintergration is commonly referred to as reducing things into nothingness in fiction. tomato tohmato.
 
Neco just destroyed DT 🔥 💀 🔥

But in all seriousness, Issho having the gravity fruit is entirely irrelevant to the points made here. I frankly don’t know why you keep bringing that up.
It's because Blackbeard having infinite gravity via gravity manipulation would make it directly superior, which can't happen since Issho is a paramecia and Blackbeard is a logia/zoan. And also since the powers don't do the same thing at all apart from enhanced gravity.
 
It's because Blackbeard having infinite gravity via gravity manipulation would make it directly superior, which can't happen since Issho is a paramecia and Blackbeard is a logia/zoan. And also since the powers don't do the same thing at all apart from enhanced gravity.
exactly this. fruits with superiority/inferiority always are the same type.
RWZu4vX_d.jpg
 
I did, I don’t need to address non-sequiturs
Not sure how it doesnt relate, a fruit being in two entirely different families and doing 2 entirely different things definitely makes the argument of yami yami no mi = artifical gravity pretty shaky. refusing to address this just makes it look worse
 
That’s not DT’s argument, try reading his post again.
yea, but that post isnt replying to dt, its replying to this

It's because Blackbeard having infinite gravity via gravity manipulation would make it directly superior, which can't happen since Issho is a paramecia and Blackbeard is a logia/zoan. And also since the powers don't do the same thing at all apart from enhanced gravity.
 
That’s not DT’s argument, try reading his post again.
DT's argument(or at least part of it) is that the Yami Yami is artificial gravity. I am saying that is not true because a fruit already does that, and Blackbeard doesn't have the superior devil fruit. Which is also totally proven by the fact that Oda named all the superiorities, and both fruits were already introduced at the time. If they aren't directly superior no two fruits do the same thing, through the same means. And before you bring up Law's R-room, he does the silencing via his spacial manipulation and not sound manipulation like Cora. That's all I'll post for a while since if I talk to you goobers seriously too much I'll die, and I was rather enjoying just watching the meltdown.
 
DT's argument(or at least part of it) is that the Yami Yami is artificial gravity. I am saying that is not true because a fruit already does that, and Blackbeard doesn't have the superior devil fruit. Which is also totally proven by the fact that Oda named all the superiorities, and both fruits were already introduced at the time. If they aren't directly superior no two fruits do the same thing, through the same means. And before you bring up Law's R-room, he does the silencing via his spacial manipulation and not sound manipulation like Cora. That's all I'll post for a while since if I talk to you goobers seriously too much I'll die, and I was rather enjoying just watching the meltdown.
this one piece shit gets serious, get ready to die behind it
 
I think that DT's comment is a sufficient conclusion to this thread.

May we close this, or are there any new arguments?
 
Because Oda said it isn’t a real black hole… the only thing he said was similar was the fact that both use big gravity to trap light
 
He didn't state that it was a real black hole but I don't think Oda deadass said that they aren't black holes. I didn't see a scan for that in the op or thread.
He says the only similarity is the no light escape stuff. Also if you’ve read the thread you’ll know KT and the rest of the supporters aren’t arguing it’s a real black hole. Regardless, it explicitly doesn’t follow our black hole standards anyway.
 
He says the only similarity is the no light escape stuff. Also if you’ve read the thread you’ll know KT and the rest of the supporters aren’t arguing it’s a real black hole. Regardless, it explicitly doesn’t follow our black hole standards anyway.
I know they aren't arguing that...
 
I know they aren't arguing that...
The read between the lines was “KT is a very knowledgeable OP debater who’s got a good intellectual grasp on the series and abilities”. Aka if you don’t wanna take my word, take KTs, cuz I prolly won’t have an extended debate with you (enjoying a 50 cent double cheeseburger instead).
 
Yeah, no. If you agree that it's gravity manipulation, and not actual incredibly dense matter generating an event horizon (i.e. a black hole), then you have no leg to stand on for your estimation of the mass. I explained as much.
It can generate gravity and not be a black hole pal. The escape velocity formula that he's using can be used for things other than black holes, and works for planets etc.
s said, your escape velocity approach is just reinventing the Schwarzschild radius formula.
It isn't to my knowledge. I am not an expert on this but it seems like it is just the regular escape velocity formula.
As it stands, you use all the black hole stuff in the calculation, but claim that you know it's not a black hole to not run into the black hole standards. If you assume that Blackbeard's darkness is an object of incredibly dense mass, with that mass producing gravity so strong that not even light can escape, then you are just saying in different words that you think Blackbeard is controlling a black hole.
The Yami Yami no mi still sucks in light, that is undebatable. Blackbeard himself says it and data books back it up. You yourself acknowledge it doesn't behave like a black hole but shares the quality of immense gravity. Which means it can suck in light. K.T. is using that principle to calculate the mass of this object similar to a black hole, using a general escape velocity formula.
That the gravity isn't actually infinite is perfectly in line with how the stuff doesn't get crushed inside the darkness.
We have been over this, he can control what he does and doesn't crush. He states that he is trying to get Ace to understand his power when he uses Liberation.
Anyway, the point is, that the darkness generating the gravity in no way implies that it's not done supernaturally rather than through actual mass. Especially, as the gravity of said darkness clearly can supernaturally be controlled to sometimes be present and sometimes not. There is really no argument that no supernatural stuff is going on with the gravity.
4QBDXsZ.png

This panel just kind of nukes the entire point. He is controlling the density not using magic.
And Oda didn't make that page for the purpose you say. It's just a page that is supposed to present interesting science facts and how Oda might have been inspired by them. That's why it also features explanations completely irrelevant for the manga, like "The telescope used to take this photograph has a resolution equivalent to three million human visual acuity." or the entire rest of the first few paragraphs. It's an immense reach to correlate these explanations where the text itself didn't. Arguably, the fact that Oda gave such a detailed explanation and then decided to not mention any connection other than "they both absorb light", even noting that specifically "This part of the technique is similar to that of a celestial black hole" and not anything else, makes it sound more as if he meant for it to specifically not be taken to be black hole like in any other way.
Doesn't matter. Still has mass. Still has P.E.
 
Is that the last argument you have to make?
 
No. But I'm not going to spam. You shouldn't close a thread if the discussion is ongoing.
I'm not going to rush the thread to completion but so far the majority have rejected it, and you've entered the discussion quite late.
 
It can generate gravity and not be a black hole pal. The escape velocity formula that he's using can be used for things other than black holes, and works for planets etc.

It isn't to my knowledge. I am not an expert on this but it seems like it is just the regular escape velocity formula.
for the record: the formula for finding the schwarzschild radius of an object with known mass is, in fact, the formula for escape velocity just rearranged so that the escape velocity is the speed of light.

so setting the escape velocity of the mass of darkness to c is treating it like a black hole.

ALSO, minor gripe i saw with the calc - purely number related.
for Math 6, the way you calc AP for creating black holes is basically finding the mass of the black hole, finding out how many times more massive it is than earth or the sun (whichever's closer) and then using that multiplier on baseline 5-B or baseline 4-C respectively.
if it weighs 14284115158081348294156311058kg, it's 2392x heavier than earth, so 2392x baseline 5-B = 142.2 Yottatons.

not sure if math 4 is valid because doing work on an object REQUIRES it to move, so someone "withstanding" the force and not being moved by it means no work done.

math 3 is specifically working out surface gravity, if you wanted to see how much force someone was withstanding a given distance away you'd have to use (Gm1m2)/(r^2) like normal, where r is the distance between the person and the center of the "hole", m1 and m2 are the person's mass and the hole's mass respectively but it don't matter the order
 
If we have several statements of Blackbeard's darkness being able to swallow light, that seems pretty blatant to me and I don't see how exactly we can just say "nope" to that. Like yeah, it doesn't wholly function like a black hole, but that property is verbatim stated to be much like one.

My stance remains the same. And also, there's discussion going on still as far as I'm aware, so there's no need to rush a closure of the thread.
 
Wild how the opposition just choose to ignore the fact that no matter what, there’s been like 3 statements of blackbeards gravity being able to swallow light. That should just be the end of the discussion atp
 
Wild how the opposition just choose to ignore the fact that no matter what, there’s been like 3 statements of blackbeards gravity being able to swallow light. That should just be the end of the discussion atp
When anti-feats exist to contradict said statements, then the existence of the statements isn't the end of all discussion.
 
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