- 2,276
- 912
I watch and wait until someone eventually claps math 3 for FTL acceleration due to gravity, trust me its regrettable happened before
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece: Black Hole Mechanics
- Thread starter KingTempest
- Start date
- Status
- 11,389
- 17,758
Tbh I really… don’t see how this doesn’t work? Like, Blackbeard can choose what he affects, that’s why he’s not absolutely annihilating literally everything
- 29,820
- 24,940
The "I'm not going to attack you just yet!" is said in response to Ace saying that Blackbeard's darkness is "nowhere near me."
A straightforward interpretation of that is that Blackbeard isn't attacking Ace because he didn't send his darkness to go out directly under Ace. If he had, then when he activated his Black Hole technique I expect that Ace would have gotten dragged down like everything else directly in contact with it. As for why Ace isn't getting caught up in it despite only being a few feet away? That could simply be due to Blackbeard's gravity not being literally as strong as a black hole, which would also be why he isn't making the area completely dark by absorbing all the light in the area.
Anyway, DT brought up the issue that we have standards about Black Holes which Blackbeard's ability does not appear to meet.
- 3,346
- 1,902
The darkness is literally below the house/wood he's standing on.
1. The blackholes bb send out have infinite gravity, which is a trait shared by rl black holes.
2. Things actually surviving arent in the standards stating to be an anti feat, the characters would just gain resistance to blackholes.
3. Logias are stated to work and behave just like the real life element they're based on.
- 29,820
- 24,940
Blackbeard's darkness hasn't actually bent any light yet.
And it has not exhibited the appropriate gravitational pull for a Black Hole of its size.
The page doesn't say that anyone who can survive a Black Hole automatically gets Resistance to Black Holes.
Blackbeard's element isn't "Black Hole". It's not the Black Hole Black Hole Fruit. His element is darkness.
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #46
Yet he himself said he can absorb light, so unless you’re saying light that is a centimeter away moving in a straight line to the side of his black hole will escape, this argument is void
Since we’re all black hole experts now, what is your measurement for the appropriate gravitational pull for a Black Hole of its size?
- 17,033
- 22,882
Ask DT, he’s the standard guy
- 3,346
- 1,902
Chalk that up to a missing visual effect, as it still traps light, something that requires a black holes infinite gravity to achieve. ( also, as long has an object has mass, it bends light to begin with.)
blackbeard can choose the level of destruction he causes with his df.
Ok, but literally all of blackbeards attacks are gravity based. combine that with the other statements and its obvious what oda was trying to replicate. blackhole isnt 1 syllable in japanese.
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #49
Check discord
- 17,033
- 22,882
- 10,282
- 17,291
I'm entirely neutral on this thread and the two positions argued, but I do have a question for those who are arguing this is an actual black hole in terms of composition.
What are y'all contentions with Blackbeard's Yami having similar properties to a black hole, such as the infinite gravitational pull that absorbs light, it being stated similar in effect to an actual black hole etc.. But not having the exact 1 to 1 composition of one? As from the evidence I've read through provided in the calc itself. Nothing inherently implies Yami's black hole needs to be equal in structure to an actual black hole for those properties to exist nor does logic demand it either. What exactly supports the composition interpretation more compared to it just having similar properties to one and that's it?
I can see it's being argued through deductive reasoning, which I'm fine with. But I would still like an answer to this question nonetheless.
What are y'all contentions with Blackbeard's Yami having similar properties to a black hole, such as the infinite gravitational pull that absorbs light, it being stated similar in effect to an actual black hole etc.. But not having the exact 1 to 1 composition of one? As from the evidence I've read through provided in the calc itself. Nothing inherently implies Yami's black hole needs to be equal in structure to an actual black hole for those properties to exist nor does logic demand it either. What exactly supports the composition interpretation more compared to it just having similar properties to one and that's it?
I can see it's being argued through deductive reasoning, which I'm fine with. But I would still like an answer to this question nonetheless.
- 3,346
- 1,902
it's due to the fact that oda states multiple times that they are the elements themseleves, as shown in the scans i posted above. They're shown in series to also have pretty much the same traits, aside for a few minor differences.
- 4,780
- 7,390
and yet the pool of darkness also exists under ace himself.
As I showed in the scan for impel down him and his men walk over the same darkness that was in the middle of swallowing the guards. His darkness can be in direct contact with you and still not affect you if he doesn't want it to, that much is PROVEN.
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #54
The main thing in the blog is to utilize the fact that it is stated to attract light in the same manner as black holes, and finding the mass from that.
It coincidentally being the same as the black hole formula is just showing where the black hole formula's roots come from. If I used a single m/s under it, would it now be a completely different formula since it doesn't have the speed of light but instead the speed right under it?
On top of that, everything pointing towards it being a true black hole is thrown to the side.
It having infinite gravity (like the center of black holes) and having an escape velocity of the speed of light
"I don't think it works"
Blackbeard not absorbing the entirety of the planet? He can choose what he wants to absorb, which is why his darkness can literally touch things and not absorb them, but then absorb things/people from far distances.
The Yami Yami's powers not appearing like one? Artistic liberty.
Blackbeard not showing to absorb light? He doesn't want to. He blatantly says he can, the databooks says he can, the magazine says he can, but he just doesn't.
That's really it
- 4,780
- 7,390
"How come this power the guy stated can do things only at his command doesn't do things outside of his command."
Some of you guys are hilarious. The fact that he took out an entire town minus 1 single small target. Him devouring a squad of guards through darkness while he and his crew walk through the same darkness in effect without being scathed whatsoever, shows how precise his gravitational ability can be. If it's stated to have infinite gravity, stated that light can't escape, stated similiar to a real life black hole in ALL ASPECTS BUT THE LIBERATION, why are we arguing against the author himself?
Some of you guys are hilarious. The fact that he took out an entire town minus 1 single small target. Him devouring a squad of guards through darkness while he and his crew walk through the same darkness in effect without being scathed whatsoever, shows how precise his gravitational ability can be. If it's stated to have infinite gravity, stated that light can't escape, stated similiar to a real life black hole in ALL ASPECTS BUT THE LIBERATION, why are we arguing against the author himself?
Last edited:
- 497
- 54
Funnily enough in this you can't pull out Dan's argument of "A statement can very, VERY easily be overruled by things going contrary to it." Which I still don't fully agree but not the point because the point is that damage doesn't even can use that argument
- 29,820
- 24,940
It has only been stated that part of his technique is similar to a black hole. In many respects it is not similar to a black hole.
For me, more evidence is needed for it to be assumed as powerful as a black hole.
Also I don't think anyone has addressed the issue about the event horizon yet.
For me, more evidence is needed for it to be assumed as powerful as a black hole.
Also I don't think anyone has addressed the issue about the event horizon yet.
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #58
That's great
Then let's use the calculation in the OP that calculates the portion of the technique that is mechanically the same as a black hole
- 3,346
- 1,902
- 17,033
- 22,882
Darkness isn’t an element
- 3,346
- 1,902
pretty much all of his powers are gravity manipulation, oda does 2 syllable names for fruit names, so thats why its called that, but its pretty obvious what "darkness" is referring to
- 17,033
- 22,882
Anyway, I’m neutral on the essentially rederivation of the Schwarzschild radius method. On one hand I see where they’re coming from with the light not being able to escape with immense mass, on the other hand I see where our standards are super strict with BH and where that may be muddy water to deal with. Oda goes out of his way to say it isn’t a BH but just acts like one mechanically, so I can see why either side would take their stance. Personally speaking, a possibly isn’t the worst thing in the world here (accepting the calc as possibly that is).
- 10,502
- 11,573
I'm aware, but if he can control the output, then there's no evidence the gravity it releases is on par with the infinite gravity inside. That would actually perfectly explain why the actual things the gravity does is by no means on par to what you would predict something with infinite gravity inside to produce. (or in specific context with the gravity that would be produced if it were a black hole)
Could be that he could release all the gravity and doesn't because it would inevitably kill himself. Or it could be that he can't draw out that much power to begin with.
In fact, seeing how Whitebeard's devil fruit is pretty clearly intended to have more brute force than the yami yami no mi (that's why Blackbeard wanted it), I dare say that I consider it being able to produce infinite force rather unlikely.
Wouldn't matter. Most of the planet would still fold in on him.
Any space manipulator can do the same. As said, gravity is spacetime curvature and you may as well treat it as such. You wouldn't say that a spacetime manipulator generates actual mass to bend spacetime.
Gravity manipulators generate gravity without any kind of corresponding mass.
Because it isn't a black hole and doesn't work like one in the ways that matter for the calc.
Last edited:
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #64
DT, did you not read where it explains in the same page how the mechanics of why black holes attract light due to the high density and mass is the same as to how Blackbeard does it?
Cause it sounds like you’re too focused too much on “he does it by gravity” instead of “he does it by gravity and these are mechanics of it”
- 17,033
- 22,882
I have a quick question. Why is it assumed that the event horizon of BB’s “BHs” are at the edge of his darkness bubble? I’m aware for actual BHs it’s at the edge of the “blackness” because that’s where light can no longer escape from. But in this case BB’s darkness can take the form of a sphere sucking shit up like a BH, but it can take other forms as well. Aka the darkness of his fruit isn’t exactly the same as the event horizon of a black hole. I can see an argument for it being the least heavy assumption, but I’m just curious if there’s other evidence to back it up, like light specifically being shown not capable of escaping a certain point on His darkness
- 4,780
- 7,390
The whole point of this calc is using the blackhole statement as support for his claim for being capable of attracting even light because of infinite gravity. It's got nothing to do with the specific mechanics of a black hole in its entirety.
Black world spreads out like a blanket and swallows everything from its edges to the center.
Black Vortex is only a sphere at his palm but its gravity brings things in from a long distance. The center of gravity is wherever the darkness is, equally. Only liberation has a specific center point (where the long strip of darkness is) for releasing everything he'd absorbed.
What bubble?
Black world spreads out like a blanket and swallows everything from its edges to the center.
Black Vortex is only a sphere at his palm but its gravity brings things in from a long distance. The center of gravity is wherever the darkness is, equally. Only liberation has a specific center point (where the long strip of darkness is) for releasing everything he'd absorbed.
- 21,137
- 30,091
- Thread starter
- #67
Because I didn't have shit else to work with
If there is a better option then I'll change it to fit that, just saying we're working with a weird technique
- 17,033
- 22,882
Well rather than assume that I wonder if we can take an on screen feat, calc the gravitational force at a distance, and then use the fact that gravity increases with distance squared as you get closer to the source to get a better estimate
- 3,346
- 1,902
That would make sense, but bb is implied to have full control over his fruit's infinite gravity.
Guess that makes sense.
Well yes, but most gravity/space time manipulators dont have a physical representation of their powers, see Fujitora in the exact same series, his grqavity manipulation is shown as a purple colored effect. Accuracy aside, the fact that the yami fruit powers are supposed to be a blackhole would mean that they would have mass.
Also there's this scan which is quoted in kt's blog:
logias are the real-life element, also "but its darkness" has already been explained above.
- 17,033
- 22,882
Brother Oda already said that BB’s fruit isn’t exactly like a BH. So repeating the notion that Logia are their elements doesn’t really matter at all here, since the fruit isn’t literally a BH. That point isn’t really useful for either side of the debate. We know that light logia use light and can become light, etc with any other logia type.
- 3,346
- 1,902
Where exactly?
- 17,033
- 22,882
I wanna say KT put it in his blog, but it’s in a databook where they talk about how BB’s darkness works. You can ask KT for the scan
- 10,282
- 17,291
Well, even assuming that "darkness" or "gravity" are even elements in the first place would be dubious. Darkness would be considered as an absence of an element rather than an actual element, such as fire or water. While gravity just clearly isn't an element, it's a fundamental property of our reality.
None of this matters however as even assuming these are actual elements, and such are considered "natural" rather than "artificial". This doesn't help all that much in furthering the case of these being actual black holes as having "natural" gravity doesn't significantly prove the singularity which creates that gravity would also be "naturally" produced, which would be through high enough mass + high enough density. You can logically deduce such, sure. I just don't see the evidence being all that useful in this situation.
I agree that Yami having similar traits to actual black holes does support the interpretation of it being real. I do however also recognize that those claims don't inherently support one interpretation over the other. Both sides can agree these properties do actually exist, but still have different opinions on the composition of both things. Which seemingly is the biggest contention going on in this thread. An argument over composition, rather than an argument over abilities.
I'll go through KT's response here relatively shortly.
- 2,857
- 1,018
There is a gravity fruit its not a logia but he can manipulate gravity, might as well just assume both can create a black hole then
- 10,282
- 17,291
There's significantly more evidence behind Blackbeard's Devil Fruit having actual composition comparable to a black hole compared to Fujitora's Zushi Zushi Fruit.
Those aren't comparable. You shouldn't act like they are.
Those aren't comparable. You shouldn't act like they are.
- 3,346
- 1,902
thats not his point. ( at least i dont think thats what it is)
- 4,780
- 7,390
textbook definition of false equivalence.
One controls high gravity
one claims INFINITE GRAVITY.
And the former also has powerful gravity to bend space if we go by the anime's portrayal of raging tiger.
- 2,857
- 1,018
The point is Blackbeard can control gravity because he doesn't have the gravity fruit yet he apparently can control the gravity of his black hole to only affect certain objects, it makes no sense.
- 16
- 20
More than one fruit can control the same thing. Multiple fruits can control flames. Multiple fruits produce poison. Multiple fruits controls user's mass. It is absulutely wrong to say only one fruit can control gravity.
And please tell me what are the properties of darkness. It could be void manipulation, it could be shadow manipulation, matter erasure. It could be many things since darkness does not have inherit proporties unlike let's say fire. Author decided that darkness has gravity and pocket dimension proporties. Character consistently makes that clear too. Then we have nothing to argue against his fruit controlling gravity.
I am not saying this to argue for it scaling to a black hole. I am saying this because if you are going to argue against it do not use half-baked arguments.
- 4,780
- 7,390
Bro acting like there's not 50 fruits that do the same thing other 50 fruits do
Law's fruit alone has like 4 other devil fruit abilities.
And there's a devil fruit higherarchy law where one DF can do something better than the other.
Snow<Chill
Fire<Magma
By that logic Gravity (which isn't infinite)<Darkness (Infinite gravity). Simple as that. Move on.
Every single time you're in a One Piece thread you talk like you haven't seen a single page or minute of it before.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
