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One Piece: Black Hole Mechanics

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KingTempest

KingTempest

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Hey guys

So I made a calculation about the Black Hole technique used in One Piece, and I sited quotes about how it's stated to be related to the real life black holes and such.

I didn't focus on following the rules of the black hole standards on the wiki, but I was worried about how to calculate the usage of the "light cannot escape".
By reversing the escape velocity formula and finding volume via a different method, I managed to find a mass of the Black Hole technique.

I wanted to know if this method is legitimate, because this does seem like something that CGMs need a thread to input on.

Basically, finding mass from a technique via a stated escape velocity.
 
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The math seems fine but I'm not an expert in that field that been said this is the second instance in which One piece gets a tier 5 feat
 
I found the calculation logic very interesting, but it is difficult that this can be applied to profiles in any way, unless it is like environmental destruction or something related
 
Executor_N0 said:
For me, it seems to be a valid black hole
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ooooooooooh
Executor_N0 said:
About the calculations, I'm unsure at which level we should disregard the effects of a black hole under Newtonian gravity as with the calcs that were made. At certain points, it's still a "good enough" approximation (At least far from the Schwarzschild radius). I don't know if we have rulings for that.
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Hmm

Do you think the mass portion is good enough?
Because the main thing I wanted to work with was the mass via the escape velocity. I didn't expect the actual black hole portion to be accepted
 
KingTempest said:
Do you think the mass portion is good enough?
Because the main thing I wanted to work with was the mass via the escape velocity. I didn't expect the actual black hole portion to be accepted
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Yes, the problem with black hole feats is more about the consequences of gravity in any given physical framework, finding the mass itself is perfectly fine.
 
Executor_N0 said:
Yes, the problem with black hole feats is more about the consequences of gravity in any given physical framework, finding the mass itself is perfectly fine.
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W

Aight then, I'm assuming GPE is solid then just for holding that much mass? Or maybe just fall back on the creation table that we have?
 
KingTempest said:
W

Aight then, I'm assuming GPE is solid then just for holding that much mass? Or maybe just fall back on the creation table that we have?
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Anything gravity-related will depend on the distance to the black hole, the closer something gets to it, the more the effects of relativity and later relativity-breaking start to bring different results. At a relatively good distance to it, it should be fine to be used.
 
Executor_N0 said:
Anything gravity-related will depend on the distance to the black hole, the closer something gets to it, the more the effects of relativity and later relativity-breaking start to bring different results. At a relatively good distance to it, it should be fine to be used.
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Huh, this is interesting

Thanks then. I'll leave this open for more views on said topic
If possible could you please leave an evaluation on the blog?
 
Not a CGM but I agree with finding the mass and GPE and whatnot using the escape velocity formula with the speed being light speed. That statement is very clear cut, and then obviously BB's darkness would need to have mass in order to attract things with gravity.

The only stuff I disagree with are Math 5 and 6. I'm not sure if summoning his technique warrants the use of a KE calc, unless he is moving the darkness around in addition to summoning it. From memory he just kind of summons it from nowhere using his darkness. Also, while BB's technique is akin to a black hole it isn't a literal black hole, hence I disagree with using our black hole formula on it.

TLDR; I agree with Maths 1-4 but not Maths 5-6.
 
Also, just out of curiosity I’ve got to ask. Have you considered calcing it’s GBE? Iirc BB makes it a sphere

Edit: I just remembered the GBE formula breaks down for Black Holes, so prolly best to ignore this suggestion (BB’s darkness isn’t a literal BH but it’s very similar)
 
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Yeah I calced the KE from that expansion there, which I found the mass from

But still, everything but the black hole one is good I’m assuming?
 
I don't know about the rest of the calc yet, but I'm not confident on the KE being applicable here.

I don't think we can assume that Blackbeard's darkness has a consistent mass. When initially summoned it rises from his body like black smoke. And when it spreads through the town, there is no visible effect from it affecting its surroundings.

I know it was mentioned in the blog post that "Blackbeard can control what he attacks" as an explanation for why there's no visual effect, but I think that is referring more to the case that Blackbeard's darkness isn't sent to be underneath Ace unlike the rest of the town. Blackbeard not targeting Ace here can just means that the darkness only works through what it is near and it's not near enough to Ace.

So since the gravity is only exhibited when Blackbeard uses the 'Black Hole' technique to crush the town, we don't know for certain that it had that mass when he was spreading it out throughout the town. If the darkness' extreme mass is the reason for why it has extreme gravity in the first place, then when it is not showing that extreme gravity I don't think it necessarily has that extreme mass.
 
Damage3245 said:
Blackbeard not targeting Ace here can just means that the darkness only works through what it is near and it's not near enough to Ace.
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Wouldn't make much sense considering we see a full on pool here and BB still doesn't affect Ace. Him saying "I won't attack YOU just yet" implies he's purposefully leaving Ace out, otherwise by your logic his darkness would also suck the rubble Ace was on because it was in direct contact with it, which it did not. Or his darkness would've been unable to harm the structures of things beyond whatever's attached to the ground.
When he uses Blackhole buildings start getting obliterated from the very top too, which contradicts your representation of his darkness. It's clear a gravity starts destroying the entirety of their structure from the top down and not vice versa.

My point is: it's obvious the narrative is he can pick and choose his targets. Not that contact determines the effect.
 
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Here's another instance of him absorbing impel down's guards while IN FRONT of them, and him and his men just casually walk by while the darkness is clearly still covering the ground they passed through.
Arguing its effect based on contact is clearly not the right interpertation.
 
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SnookB said:
Here's another instance of him absorbing impel down's guards while IN FRONT of them, and him and his men just casually walk by while the darkness is clearly still covering the ground they passed through.
Arguing its effect based on contact is clearly not the right interpertation.
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Okay, fair enough on that point.
 
While Damage might not be correct about the contact point of concern, it seems clear that Blackbeard can pick and choose when his Darkness should take effect.

Establishing that, I don't think we can say for certain that the expansion of his Darkness was done when his Darkness weighed that much if that makes sense.

As he can seemingly toggle the effects on and off in certain areas why should we assume his expansion happens at full weight when we don't see any effects that corroborate that kind of mass in motion

We can just as easily assume that Blackbeard spreads his Darkness at a low density like smoke (Which is what it appears to act like in these panels) and then once it reaches his desired area of affect he activates the ability so that all the Darkness then becomes super dense like a Black Hole and crushes the houses (Minus Ace)

This would also explain Blackbeards ability to pick an choose what and where gets sucked into his darkness as well as why Ace and his men in impel down are unaffected (It could also be some high level Haki shenanigans with Ace as well)


That being said Math 1-4 look fine to use
 
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Quick question, I thought omnidirectional KE was 1/12, but KT's blog lists it as 1/4, which is true lol.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Quick question, I thought omnidirectional KE was 1/12, but KT's blog lists it as 1/4, which is true lol.
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The page says this:

One should keep in mind that not all clouds in a cloud movement feat necessarily move with the same speed. In such cases one has to calculate the kinetic energy with the different speeds of the different parts in mind. An example of this would be creating clouds and spreading them omnidirectionally around a center point. In that case the speed with which the clouds move may increase the further from the center they are. In the case of such an omnidirectional expansion one could use the formula "kinetic energy = 0.25 * cloud mass * (Speed of cloud movement)2" to account for the different speeds involved.

For pulling in clouds omnidirectional towards a center point, or dispersing them from a center point, the formula "kinetic energy = 1/12 * cloud mass * (Speed of cloud movement)2" can be used.


This may be bad wording on the page, but it looks like it is saying that 1/4 and 1/12 should be used when omnidirectional expansion is happening... Both can't be right, so I'm not certain what is going on with that.
 
Damage3245 said:
The page says this:

One should keep in mind that not all clouds in a cloud movement feat necessarily move with the same speed. In such cases one has to calculate the kinetic energy with the different speeds of the different parts in mind. An example of this would be creating clouds and spreading them omnidirectionally around a center point. In that case the speed with which the clouds move may increase the further from the center they are. In the case of such an omnidirectional expansion one could use the formula "kinetic energy = 0.25 * cloud mass * (Speed of cloud movement)2" to account for the different speeds involved.

For pulling in clouds omnidirectional towards a center point, or dispersing them from a center point, the formula "kinetic energy = 1/12 * cloud mass * (Speed of cloud movement)2" can be used.


This may be bad wording on the page, but it looks like it is saying that 1/4 and 1/12 should be used when omnidirectional expansion is happening... Both can't be right, so I'm not certain what is going on with that.
Click to expand...
1/4th is this


1/12th is this
 
Ironically, by starting with the escape velocity formula with the speed of light, you really just recalculated the black hole formula. The Schwarzschild Radius formula is nothing but the escape velocity formula solved for radius with velocity replaced by the speed of light.

Now, I will ignore some other issues and get to the main one: No, you can't calculate everything that swallows light like a black hole.
Anyone that bends space to create a portal can do that. Gravity is the curvature of spacetime. Just because someone can magically manipulate it, it doesn't mean the mass is actually there.
You can not use any method that assumes the mass is there, because it clearly isn't. Otherwise you would end up with every wormhole requiring the mass-energy of jupiter to be opened...

To that comes that Blackbeards stuff is clearly not even remotely matching the actual gravity, as otherwise the planet would fold around him. Like, ultimately, several of the criteria that would apply to black holes would apply the same here. E.g. nothing should be able to withstand being in contact with the "event horizon".


Like, as an example, consider this: Making another person float via gravity manipulation over a distance of 9 meters would require about 1.2254326225086188976E+13 kg by some old calc I did (ignore how whacky it is otherwise. It was the wild west of no standards back then). That's the weight of a large mountain for a basic flight spell.
It's best to calculate gravity powers by the effects they cause, not by the theoretical mass needed to produce them.
 
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DT makes sense to me there. It looks like it'd be best if the calc wasn't used.
 
DontTalkDT said:
To that comes that Blackbeards stuff is clearly not even remotely matching the actual gravity, as otherwise the planet would fold around him. Like, ultimately, several of the criteria that would apply to black holes would apply the same here. E.g. nothing should be able to withstand being in contact with the "event horizon".


Like, as an example, consider this: Making another person float via gravity manipulation over a distance of 9 meters would require about 1.2254326225086188976E+13 kg by some old calc I did (ignore how whacky it is otherwise. It was the wild west of no standards back then). That's the weight of a large mountain for a basic flight spell.
It's best to calculate gravity powers by the effects they cause, not by the theoretical mass needed to produce them.
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Counterpoint: Blackbeard can choose what to affect with his yami yami no mi powers,so thats not really an anti-feat, ignoring the fact the op world is way larger than a regular earth sized planet. Adding the fact that the yami yami no mi also captures light ( which requires an escape velocity of FTL speeds,which requires a shit ton of gravity.) If it behaves a lot like a black hole, and is clearly supposed to be portayed as one, why not treat it as such?
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Counterpoint: Blackbeard can choose what to affect with his yami yami no mi powers,so thats not really an anti-feat, ignoring the fact the op world is way larger than a regular earth sized planet. Adding the fact that the yami yami no mi also captures light ( which requires an escape velocity of FTL speeds,which requires a shit ton of gravity.) If it behaves a lot like a black hole, and is clearly supposed to be portayed as one, why not treat it as such?
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It really doesn't behave anything like a real black hole in terms of how it affects it surroundings or its shape. If Blackbeard can just make it so that its supposed mass has no effect on the environment then it's just as plausible that he doesn't need to put Moon level+ amounts of energy into moving it around.

Also, regular humans in the One Piece world have been absorbed inside of this "black hole" and emerged from it alive. That doesn't sound like a realistic black hole to me.
 
Damage3245 said:
It really doesn't behave anything like a real black hole in terms of how it affects it surroundings or its shape. If Blackbeard can just make it so that its supposed mass has no effect on the environment then it's just as plausible that he doesn't need to put Moon level+ amounts of energy into moving it around.

Also, regular humans in the One Piece world have been absorbed inside of this "black hole" and emerged from it alive. That doesn't sound like a realistic black hole to me.
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Did you just not read the explanation of that in the blog?
 
Damage3245 said:
It really doesn't behave anything like a real black hole in terms of how it affects it surroundings or its shape. If Blackbeard can just make it so that its supposed mass has no effect on the environment then it's just as plausible that he doesn't need to put Moon level+ amounts of energy into moving it around.
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Because the guy who claims it has infinite gravity/weight also says and SHOWS he can pick and choose what to affect with said gravity.

Every counter point to the black hole point can be answered to with the simple claim of Blackbeard saying "I'm not aiming for YOU yet." and very obviously choosing which targets to affect with the gravity, and which with absorption.


As for for the Blackhole not constantly acting like one- it doesn't need to when the guy controlling it doesn't want it to at that moment. The author explicitly slapped a REAL LIFE BLACK HOLE TO EXPLAIN THE MECHANICS with the added note of "except this guy can eject things as well.". We're flat out disagreeing with Oda saying "here's a real black hole to explain his powers" by saying "no it's not".
 
SnookB said:
Because the guy who claims it has infinite gravity/weight also says and SHOWS he can pick and choose what to affect with said gravity.

Every counter point to the black hole point can be answered to with the simple claim of Blackbeard saying "I'm not aiming for YOU yet." and very obviously choosing which targets to affect with the gravity, and which with absorption.


As for for the Blackhole not constantly acting like one- it doesn't need to when the guy controlling it doesn't want it to at that moment. The author explicitly slapped a REAL LIFE BLACK HOLE TO EXPLAIN THE MECHANICS with the added note of "except this guy can eject things as well.". We're flat out disagreeing with Oda saying "here's a real black hole to explain his powers" by saying "no it's not".
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And if I point out that it's really weird that this apparently Moon level Black Hole's effects were to basically just fragment a wooden town when by all rights a Black Hole of this mass by all rights should completely destroy to the town and crush it to nothing? I'm guessing I'll be answered with some variety of "AoE Fallacy" or how we should judge him by his statements of his power and not about what he's been shown to do with his power.

Do I believe that Blackbeard controls a power of significany gravity that can crush and absorb his surroundings? Sure.

Do I believe that Blackbeard is throwing around Moon-sized masses and using real-life Black Hole gravity strength with every attack? Based on what I've seen, no, I don't believe that yet. The databook also mentions that Blackbeard hasn't exhibited the true strength of his fruit yet, so maybe we'll get some more significant feats from it in the future.
 
Yeah the scan saying it acts like a black hole outside of the pocket dimension is quite convincing, can’t really say “it doesn’t behave like one” when the author directly says it does
 
Damage3245 said:
And if I point out that it's really weird that this apparently Moon level Black Hole's effects were to basically just fragment a wooden town when by all rights a Black Hole of this mass by all rights should completely destroy to the town and crush it to nothing? I'm guessing I'll be answered with some variety of "AoE Fallacy" or how we should judge him by his statements of his power and not about what he's been shown to do with his power.
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First it was “it can send things out” and now it’s “it doesn’t completely atomize it”.

Yeah atp you’re digging for straws, these have been answered
 
KingTempest said:
First it was “it can send things out” and now it’s “it doesn’t completely atomize it”.

Yeah atp you’re digging for straws, these have been answered
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I didn't say "It can send things out" as a counter to it being a black hole. I just brought up how normal Marines can be absorbed by the black hole and survive when the gravity of a true black hole of that magnitude should crush them to pulp. Unless we'd end up scaling these normal Marines and prison guards to Moon level but that's a whole other topic.

The statement from the databook is:

This technique generates darkness from himself and swallows up anything he touches with his gravitational pull. The power of this technique is so great that it can swallow an entire town. It also has an infinite gravitational pull that keeps any light from escaping. This part of the technique is similar to that of a celestial black hole.
Click to expand...

It is "similar" to a real-life black hole, but it's not being stated that Blackbeard creates a literal black hole.

And the power of his ability being described as "so great" that it can "swallow a whole town" as if that's supposed to be something impressive indicates to me that the writer isn't trying to convey that Blackbeard's power here is as powerful as a real world Black Hole. Swallowing a town is nothing compared to a black hole.
 
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