Nulling Chara being evil.

[Udlmaster]

This idea is old and is outdated now; people think Chara is evil due to their 'actions.'

Sorry but you say Asriel is good right? Even after he destroyed the whole timeline like Chara? Sorry to burst the bubble but Chara cannot be the Scapegoat while Asriel is the Goatbro. Want more proof? Well let's come down to everything:

Chara laughed at Asgore's pain when they made the buttercup pie:

Laughing to cover up the pain is common in Undertale, Undyne the Undying's death, Genocide Toriel's, the mime laughs while people are there but then becomes sad when they leave, Sans in general. If they hated the Dreemurrs then they would have been dead, Chara could have killed Asriel's or any of the Other Dreemurr's souls if they wanted to but no. They chose to kill themselves to allow Asriel to absorb their soul, don't you think that's amazing? They kill themselves in an incredibly painful way to give their brother their soul. This kind of pain put Asgore out of commission, imagine what it did to an (Around) 10 year old like Chara.

They destroyed the Timeline:

Like Asriel? Anyway, you do remember the fact they gave you one last chance right? You don't know this? Remember when Flowey begs for mercy, well, when he says "Please don't kill me", there's a relapse in control, you can press ESC here and reset without a single consequence, but you chose to push Z, and by doing this you chose FIGHT one more time pushing Chara beyond their threshold.


Chara calls themselves a Demon:

And Asriel calls himself the God of Hyperdeath, do you believe these -CHILDREN- when they say they're demons and gods?


Chara only shows up in the Genocide route and takes control of Frisk:

Chara doesn't show up only in the Genocide path, how do you think you defeated Asriel? Who gave you the Memories to have Asriel recollect? You didn't know Asriel and Frisk have no idea, so who gave you the memories? The only person besides Asriel who was there, Chara. Without Chara, you wouldn't have your Happy ending, so thank them next time. You have to remember, why did Chara fall? Asriel clearly states it was for something "not so nice." clearly saying suicide, Chara had been pushed around, beat and abused, why did you think Toriel hid all the Knives? Not because she was Scared but to stop Chara from hurting themselves. So this abused child who just woke up from being murdered by Humans watches you go through the Underground, Mercilessly killing Monsters without a second thought, and like a Child does, they copy you and want to help you but not because they want to but because this time it's because YOU, YOU Determination push them forwards and YOU push FIGHT all those times, you killed Sans, Papyrus, Undyne, Mettaton, Flowey, Asgore, Muffet and more! Because you CHOSE to show Chara evil and you taught them to act like you, and you are Determination pushing both Frisk and Chara forwards to the end. Don't believe me, look at Flowey at the end of the True Ending, he talks to YOU, not Frisk, not Chara but YOU and tells you to stop and let them enjoy their lives so you in that world DO exist and they know you exist.


So what do you think?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Anyway, you do remember the fact they gave you one last chance right? You don't know this? Remember when Flowey begs for mercy, well, when he says "Please don't kill me", there's a relapse in control, you can press ESC here and reset without a single consequence, but you chose to push Z, and by doing this you chose FIGHT one more time pushing Chara beyond their threshold.

Goddamn it man.

Now I'm going to have to do my fourth genocide run just to see if this is true, because from what I remember, you can ESC and reset any point up until when Chara actually asks you "do you want to destroy the world"

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps I should inform Azathoth about this thread.

 

[Kaltias]

@Holy

Yeah, but there is a little problem. The Player is doing the genocide, Chara is just using their determination.

If you want to exclude the Player, Chara still isn't the one doing the genocide. Frisk is.

 

[Udlmaster]

Well Chara isn't doing anything, this is a list of the things Chara does only in the Genocide route:

Move towards Monster Kid on the Bridge.

Step forwards towards Mettaton.

Step forwards towards Sans.

Do the last hit to Sans. Note: the LAST HIT, you pressed it ALL the other times.

Kills Asgore after you pushed the world to it's limit.

Kills Flowey after the relapse in control.

 

[Kaltias]

I think that Chara also enters the fight with Asgore, but i'm not sure.

 

[Udlmaster]

What they do elsewhere:

Give you the Game Over Screen: What Asgore said to Chara while they we're sick.

Translate Monster dialogue.

Give you the memories to SAVE Asriel.

Give you information on ALL monsters (Well most that you battle)

They make jokes such as the Snowball being a Snow Decahedron.

Recalling memories like how Asgore still has their sweater they made him and the art, in the Genocide route they flat our say this and when you look at the photo of the Dreemurr's, they say silent.

In the routes things change, in the Pacifist route Chara is happy, this is show when you look at the bag of Dog food at Alphys' lab, they either say it's half full or half empty. In the mirror in New Home, they say "It's you" and in Genocide "It's me" showing that you have lost control. And why would Chara stay around with a murder who just killed everyone, who's taught them to be evil and is now heading to go kill their Father and Best Friend, you took them there, the unstable 10 (Around) year old child to their father after teaching them Genocide, that's like putting a bomb in a bank and saying "It's not my fault, the bomb killed people"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If you're referring to god mode Asriel being treated as "good", he's not. He's still a genocidal maniac. Just like Flowey was.

Chara is clearly influenced by what the Player does and their own disdain for other humans in their life (since that is pretty much connected with the overarching message of the genocide route), but what Chara becomes at the end of the genocide route is evil. In Undertale, you have a lot of opportunities to directly alter the morality of different characters. Chara does not have to be evil (no one in Undertale is 100% good or evil), as this is only the case in the genocide route, but said route is the only one where Chara returns from death as anything remotely tangible and not a disembodied but powerless presence who is hinted at in the vaguest of terms.

This is like how the Player can be either a vindictive god from another world who chooses to callously force the murder of anyone and everyone in the Underground, or a force for good who guides the game's characters to the best possible outcome. However, the Player has direct influence in all routes, and Chara only actually manifests in the genocide route.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Udlmaster]

You're forgetting a massive chunk of text that clearly shows Chara being good: The second Genocide run after Chara brought back the world.

Firstly, Chara erasing the Timeline is nothing, for them, it's like breaking a lego house, they can just rebuild it, so destruction for Chara means nothing as they can ultimatly undo the ERASE damage.

In the second Genocide route, Chara clearly shows what THEY are thinking and not what the player has shown them.

Here's the text:

"You and I are not the same, are we? This soul resonates with a strange feeling. There is a reason you continue to recreate this world. There is a reason you continue to destroy it. You. You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality. Hmm. I cannot understand these feelings anymore. Despite this. I feel obliged to suggest. If you recreate this world once more. Another path may be better suited."

This clearly shows that Chara is telling you to go and recreate the world and do a pacifist run, they are outright telling you to do it and stop committing Genocide, how could you say someone is evil when they are telling the person who commits Genocide to take another path and stop. This is another instance where they show up in the flesh and are benevolent; they are telling you to spare people. And yes at the end they take over because why should you, an individual who KILLED EVERY ONE deserve a good ending, when you choose not to go with Toriel, they show you a picture of them being alive and with everyone else's faces crossed off, showing you no matter how hard you try you can kill everyone else off, but you can't kill Chara. It's rubbing in your face, and when you do accept to go with Toriel, they take over because how dare you expect nothing less after you KILLED her. Don't you think it's sick not to act?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Oh yeah, because killing a bunch of people who just got their happy end to spite someone totally isn't "evil".

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Doesn't Chara literally call himself a demon? He's literally the concept of LV

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara still kills everyone if you do a pacifist run, and Asriel even clarifies Chara was never actually that good of a person and that he was just wearing rose-tinted glasses in regards to certain issues.

Also, by the logic that Chara did nothing wrong because they could undo the damage, Flowey did nothing wrong, either. Sadistically carrying out genocide against an entire race because you're bored is OK as long as you reset the timeline.

Chara as a person was kind of a shit person in some aspects, but not evil. Chara as a spirit is evil, just as the player is in the genocide route. Chara in all neutral routes and the pacifist route is just dead and doesn't come back.

Telling someone "Hey bro stop killing everyone" and then proceeding to go "Ha psych!" and killing the people that were spared doesn't exactly make you a wholesome individual.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are we discussing weather or not a genocide is evil? I know Chara's character is more nuanced than that, but the Evil Category isn't exclusively just for Complete Monsters. Chara, at least during the Genocide Route, definitely qualifies for evil.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Perhaps we should close this thread?

 

[Udlmaster]

No, you shouldn't because everything hasn't been said, one , Stop blaming Chara for the genocide route, you did it not them, they killed two after you taught them genocide, you killed, not Chara so understand it, Chara has no power over you and Chara never started the Genocide route, you do. Chara kills no one at the end of the pacifist route, your claim has no edvidence, I've spoken about the picture and the face at the end so go reread that. And yes , but the difference between Flowey and Chara is that Chara never remade timelines just to kill, they kill two people, 3 if you include Sans but let's be honest, you did that after pressing fight so many times also where do they go psye? They have never been shown to harm ANYONE in a pacifist route, soulless or not at the end Chara takes over and you can reset, they don't kill everyone at the end and there is no edvidence to prove this.

 

[SITHISIT]

Personally the concept of Chara being evil when they said it themself that they basically had nothing to do with stabbing their friends and they were there just to make the consequences is just weeaboos getting mad at the fact they lost pacifist ending and said that "OMG CHARA POSESSED ME AND KILLED EVERYONE THEYRE SUCH A BAD CHILD"

Chara says "it was you who brought the world into the abyss.

It was you who pushed everything to its edge

It was you who killed everyone"

And they said they don't even get why the player would do another geno and said "lmao **** off w/ killing ppl and go save them but the thing if you still killed them so no happy for you" so them taking over is truly just plot convenience as they said it themself there was no reason to actually do another genocide route and I wouldn't understand why they would take over again if they didn't wanna do another multiverse bust.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"they killed two people"

Blatantly false. They kill every remaining monster in the Underground and everyone on the surface whether you choose to do it with them or not.

Chara does not have an excuse for this. They have their own reasons, but not an excuse. Trying to defend Chara killing everyone over and over again is the same as defending Flowey or the player for doing the same thing. "Chara did nothing wrong" is like a bad joke that's gone too far. Having character nuance doesn't stop you from being evil. Reborn Chara is a murderer, just as the genocide player is.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Riiingo

That's like saying, "I'll teach you for orchestrating that holocaust!" by then performing several additional holocausts. Murdering everyone to prove a point doesn't make things better, especially if you do it MORE than the initial person did.

 

[Udlmaster]

One, they don't kill every monster, you do, they do not kill everyone on the surface and I have asked you for a source to your claim but you keep from giving any I presume you're using Headcannon which as we all know, doesn't work here. I have given fact after fact, piece after piece and I have yet to see a single good counter argument.

 

[Udlmaster]

Chara has no interactions with the Universe after their death, they erase it and remake it just for YOU, not Frisk because they have taken over Frisk's body, no they're talking to us, the Players, Chara doesn't kill anyone on the surface, Chara doesn't remake the world and destroy it because unlike the Player, They're not genocidal, but you claim they are with no evidence to back you up.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Dude. You, the Player, can specifically refuse to help Chara to erase the world, and they do it anyway.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Well, as @Azathoth said, Chara is 2-B for a reason, for destroying countless Universes, in the Genocide Route we kill about 94 monsters, if we give Chara the benefit of the doubt and give them the bare minimum for being a 2-B, 1001 Universes being destroyed, that still means 1001 x 7 Billion, thats 7.007e+12 Humans dead. 7.007e+12 > 94.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

One, they don't kill every monster, you do, they do not kill everyone on the surface and I have asked you for a source to your claim but you keep from giving any I presume you're using Headcannon which as we all know, doesn't work here. I have given fact after fact, piece after piece and I have yet to see a single good counter argument.

lol What? Undyne states she feels that everyone in the world is in danger if she lets you pass, which is correct, because in the end, Chara destroys the world.

The player is responsible for forcing Frisk to kill the main cast and all monsters you can actually fight. Chara kills literally everybody else in one shot. The Underground is far from barren by the time the player is through, yet Chara still destroys it whether the player complies or not.

If you want to talk about Headcanons, that is what the majority of your argument hinges on, and the claim to know Chara's intent. However, I will give you an objective event that occurs in the game; Chara destroys the world, with or without the player. A world still inhabited by many monsters and humans. That is not some obtuse interpretation of events.

Again, character nuance does not prevent you from being evil. The player's apathy towards their massacre and Chara's justifications for destroying the world don't make either less evil, especially in a game that hinges on the idea that there is always an option other than murder.

 

[Udlmaster]

And what did they do after 10 min? They did 1001x 7 Billion thas 7.007e+12 Humans dead. 7.007e+12 > 94 in reverse, also we're unsure if this affects the overworld anyway, Since who do not know if Determination works in the Overworld.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Since when were you the one in control?
	~ Chara​

 

[Udlmaster]

And why would they listen to a Genocider? The Person who killed everyone? Would you? I doubt it. The Timeline was dead anyway since you killed everyone and then they destroyed it because you would continue to destroy, save, restart and destroy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And what did they do after 10 min? They did 1001x 7 Billion thas 7.007e+12 Humans dead. 7.007e+12 > 94 in reverse, also we're unsure if this affects the overworld anyway, Since who do not know if Determination works in the Overworld.

Um, no. They only restore the world if you give up your soul. Not for any kind of regret or something. It's a bargaining chip. Also, yes Determination works in the Overworld. The Underground isn't a separate universe. It is literally just the underground, which was sealed off by humans. The overworld also clearly resets when you undo a pacifist ending.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And why would they listen to a Genocider? The Person who killed everyone? Would you? I doubt it. The Timeline was dead anyway since you killed everyone and then they destroyed it because you would continue to destroy, save, restart and destroy.

What kind of argument is this? It's like justifying murdering the entire population of Germany because Hitler asked you not to. Chara is still killing many, many individuals by their own free will.

 

[Overlord775]

just asking, but why does this matter ? i mean is not like it is going to affect chara during a fight (except if it goes against someone with powers similar to those of sans, which is very unlikelly)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Overlord

It really doesn't

 

[Holyhotsauce]

@Uldmaster

If it didn't affect the overworld, the why the hell would Chara be 2-B, she'd be large island level at best, besides if you want to make a content revision thread for downgrading Chara then be my guest, but as for now Chara is a 2-B, meaning at the very least they destroyed 1001 Universes, including those meager 7.007e+12 People.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Holyhotsauce

Plus, we get direct confirmation the overworld resets from post-pacifist ending, so arguing that would be null in the first place, as well.

 

[Overlord775]

@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

Then imo this thread should be closed considering that this a vs wiki and not a wiki about moral and philosophy, but idk

 

[Ryukama]

@Overlord775 I agree that the issue isn't too important. However I believe it's being had since we've chosen to add the "Evil Characters" category to Chara's profile. Therefore people want to revise that. I agree with Azzy however and wouldn't mind if this got closed though.

 

[Udlmaster]

I tell you to have another look at my comments, I don't believe you have been reading any of them

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

They've read all of them, and refuted all their points.

Chara is evil. Deal with it.

 

[Promestein]

Essentially, "Cool motive, still genocide"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I tell you to have another look at my comments, I don't believe you have been reading any of them

I have read everything you've written, and you have still never addressed the fact that Chara destroys the world while the majority of people are still alive. Even after the player forces Frisk to mow down all monsters that can be fought, a great number of them remain in hiding or have escaped, and the human population is untouched. Chara then proceeds to, in one attack, end the entire world and all its remaining inhabitants.

That is, by its very definition, genocide. And it is a genocide orders of magnitude greater than is even possible for the player to carry out. This is even if we assume Chara doesn't actually kill everyone in subsequent pacifist endings as well, which they likely do.

Chara's very actions in-game rule out any possibility of "Chara is just misunderstood", which has always been no more than a fan theory that turns a blind eye to multiple things in-universe.

Was Chara suggested to be kinda screwed from the get-go due to their own personal experiences and unhinged mental state? Yes.

Was Chara a human who likely had many conflicting thoughts and feelings, all of which are complex? Yes.

Still not an excuse for actual genocide. Reason is not justification.

You can feel horrible for a kid who grew up with horrendous trauma, but it doesn't mean that if they grow up into a serial killer who likes to eat people, you can just say, "Well, they had a reason for it" and everything is fine. People are held responsible for actions carried out by their own volition.