Nuclear Robots

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Starstorm is not actual falling stars. If they were real stars, I'm pretty sure the planet would have been incinerated by the stars colliding with earth. So if they are real stars, they'd be far to small to be actual stars. As a side note, shooting stars are actually meteors; so it's best to treat Starstorm as a meteor shower rather than actual stars outside the solar system being pulled to Earth at Massively FTL+ speeds.

However, that thunderstorm feat mentioned above still looks legit though.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Bump

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Again does the weather manip count as environmental destruction or combat applicable AP that scales to dura?

This question hasn't been answered yet.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As I mentioned above, that depends on case by case scenarios. But I will say that JRPGs especially pretty much qualify that all environmental destruction feats are combat applicable AP that scales to durability. Especially if they use said techniques as a regular spell. All PSI attacks should have the same energy output given it's the same characters well versed powers and abilities that are the sources of each techniques power. And said characters can trade blows with the bosses using those same PSI attacks and would scale regardless.

So in other words, the storm feats here are legit.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

"if a character is able to cause weather phenomena or natural disasters without any reasoning that can support their other statistics being at this level of destructive potency, then they should have trouble or lack the capacity to use these powers to damage characters in comparable tiers."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That statement needs to be altered to be fair, you don't have to have everything be a giant explosion to have a high tier. Also, said storm feats are pretty much always extremely casual. Black Mages and Summoner's can trade blows with Warriors and Knights in Final Fantasy, with their strongest spells and swords respectively, so they all scale from the strongest spells and summons regardless. The same thing is done here.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Then that should be a thread of it's own but until that thread is eventually accepted we need to abide by what the page itself says.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't have to, there are several of rules pages that are flawed and/or dated that we didn't quite follow 100% due to the verses and pages being more up to date and those guidelines aren't 100%. Also, read the full context. It outright says "If there's no reaso for it to scale to other statistics." But here, there is a reaso for their other statistics to be on that level and for the reasons I layed out multiple times throughout the thread. Some of our better guidelines on the Attack Potency Vs Destructive Capacity page actually further elaborates with what I've been saying.

In fact, it would actually be a double standard to not scale Earthbound from the storm feats because doing so would be giving them shabby treatment compared to Mortal Kombat, Final Fantasy, ect.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think we should use the storm feat for physicals if there's not some indication of it being able to be extrapolated to other stuff, or if there's nothing on a comparable level.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Read my posts above, it has the same energy output as each others PSI lightning, PSI Fire, PSI Rocking, which would be Low 7-B at bare minimum. Characters tank each others' PSI, meaning durability scales, and they can harm each other with baseball bats. You said if there's no indicatio, when there is indicatio.

 

[Wokistan]

But the other PSIs aren't shown to be on that level of power, from what I remember. As we covered above, some nukes are tier 8, which is more reasonable for a manportable robot to be carrying.

Basically, i'm seeing the starstorm result as an outlier for PSI more than anything else.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Starstorm isn't an outlier per say, it's just that they aren't real stars or even Tier 4 or Massively FTL+ at all. It is also scientifically impossible for spammable techniques to be outliers. And having different damage ratings is irrelevant; that fact is that they all come from the same power sources, being their own essences. All properly calc'd feats are legit to scale to all physical statistics; that's a standard for pretty much every JRPG out there.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

An addition, though not trying to justify 4-C rating or anything, we see that Maria and Ness were able to create Magicant with their own psychic powers (Maria's Magicant is 7-A while Ness's magicant is Low 2-C). So, yeah. I don't think we can use Smash bros to clarify canon counter parts.

(Seriously tho, can we wait until the actual revision gets through?)

 

[Wokistan]

Talking about the tier 7 result as an outlier.

That's not true. In fact, something being portrayed so casually further points to it being an outlier, as it is contradictory to all the other showings. We don't count each individual bullet from a gun as a separate feat for the purposes of stuff like this, for example.

But nothing else from this source has any sort of demonstrations on this scale, nor has anything from other sources. Besides, things of a common source can still differ greatly in their effectiveness. Not every spell cast by Jace Belere is tier 6.

Standards can be flawed and change.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I hope I don't sound too blunt, but I really don't think you're familiar with the in depth lore of how JRPGs generally work. For example, if a character can destroy the entire universe and recreate it in their own image as many times as they desire, that character is a universal tier; case closed.

Low end feats are usually PIS; it's not like Wonder Woman gets downgraded via struggling to dodge and getting injured by bullets and javelins. Or Superman consistently struggling to lift up an airplanes or falling to dodge batterangs. Look at Sephiroth's casual 4-B feat, or Isaac's High 4-C feats. They aren't outliers, they're consistent.

Also, precision strikes are a thing in fiction; spells and Ki attacks performed by the same character are generally treated as similar tiers unless there's proof that they're holding back. A fireball can be calc'd at Wall level despite technically being a Tier 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 attack. It's how magic and/or Ki work. Especially in JRPG's.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, if I recall correctly, the nuclear robots are towards the end of the game so it makes sense they would have increased in power by the end of the game. We could make a BoG or Early game key if that would make it better

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

So.... uh, what do you think about this:

Each Protagonist will have a new key that will be BoG that goes to

"Possibly 9-A to At least High 8-C (Or 8-A)| At least Low 7-B"

as the tier 9 to 8 scales to Buzz Buzz and The Starman. with Low 7-B being End game (For Ness, since he's Low 2-C in the end, he'll likely have it in the beginning or something, this is somewhat flawed...as that storm happens around the middle of the story where you become allies with Poo.)

Or All the protagonist gets upgraded to Low 7-B with no early game keys.

 

[Wokistan]

Making/breaking a universe isn't really the same thing as a storm unmatched by anything else. I think the tier 2 is fine here.

The differenc being is that comics characters have a number of tier 4 feats (and a bunch of way higher ones), and that sephiroth already has showings in the cosmic sort of range with the High 5-A stuff. I have no idea who Isaac is.

Yeah and I think that's not a great practice to have, especially considering how few authors actually will consider drawing in a storm a feat. If it's actually portrayed as a feat or there's other stuff on a similar level then fine, but if it's just a thing that sort of happens I don't think we should be quick to accept it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The point is that the storm feats are still spammable techniques; it doesn't matter if it's a storm or quake or punch. If it's 2.4 Megatons of TNT, it's Small City level. Also, the Sanctuary Guardian Thunder and Storm is can attack with a storm, and the Franklin Badge can deflect the same storm back dispersing the cloud.

Actually, there are a lot of Tier 7 stuff; Nuclear Robots are stated to be comparable to the Bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Which is 15 Kilotons and 7-C. Kraken can create a Tornado, which ranges from Multi-City Block level+ to some of them reaching Tier 6 iirc. There may be other details regarding Sanctuary Guardians, and each and every one they defeat is also stated have all their power absorbed by Ness and his companions. Also, Sanctuary Guardians typically have reality warping feats that affect entire cities, mountains, or even entire countries for that matter. I know it's mostly hax rather than AP, but the 8 all together are considered planetary threats similar the the 4 Fiends from the first Final Fantasy.

In this case, drawing storms to attack is considered a feat. Thunder and Storm, being the 6th Sanctuary Guardian is considered a threat to all of Daleem. Furthermore, this boss is literally the embodiment of the storm; like a living storm cloud that spreads and expands itself. If Raide can scale from this feat then there's no reason for the party not to scale from it too.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

When are the nuclear robots stated to be comparable to that?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was stated on another thread; also, pretty sure there was a long discussion about it. The Staff were strongly against the cast being downgraded to Tier 8, especially if each and every sanctuary guardian in the game possesses powers that at the very least expand beyond a town or city.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Yeah, I agree with Low 7-B more. Anything higher would kinda make things weird, as Giegue is already At least 7-A, unless we're going to have to upgrade him as well (to Tier 6, if that's possible, or give back his 5-B rating because of that one statement made where he could destroy Earth.)

Poo vs Raiden when?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If the storm guardians are gonna be a basis for a good bit of the scaling, then they should probably get a profile. Any earthbound bois know a good bit about them?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I too agree with Low 7-B given the what's calcable; as the higher stuff from sanctuary guardians is more range and/or hax. Was just mentioning the other stuff to prove the solid legitimacy of the feat. And yeah, Thunder and Storm could get a profile; I can make one at some point.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It was stated on another thread; also, pretty sure there was a long discussion about it. The Staff were strongly against the cast being downgraded to Tier 8, especially if each and every sanctuary guardian in the game possesses powers that at the very least expand beyond a town or city.

So is there a direct scan of them being stated comparable or no?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The old discussion was here

And looking at it again, not sure if the scan specifically said that, but there are a lot of things to consider. First of all, the nuclear weapons that are 8-A are fairly obscure and agreed to be far too low, so it seems unlikely to compare to those. And considering Earthbound was made in Japan, it made the most sense to compare them to the nukes Japan's familiar with; Little Boy and Fat Boy respectively. Which are 15 to 22 Kilotons respectively. It was also agreed to be more consistent with Sanctuary Guardians feats.

But yeah, Thunder and Storm's storm feats could upgrade them to Low 7-B.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

I feel like this should be moved to the CRT board, since now that question (that has been answered) is slowly turning to an upgrade for the verse. Or are we not allowed to do that and we would have to make a separate thread (or bring this up in the major CRT thread).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Isn't there already another content revision board? Personally, I think we could move it to that one and close this thread. The main question was kind of already answered.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Yeah, I agree. We should bring that up in the main revision.

(Along with abilities I mentioned in the Ness vs Shulk Redux)

Welp, see ya there then. This can now be closed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay