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Novels? (Nard revision)

AlternativePrinciple

AlternativePrinciple

253
72
Alright this is a small and simple CRT, certain Parts/statements of the Boruto movie novelization should be allowed to be used as supporting material for feats from the manga and anime especially when they don't contradict anything in the anime/manga. Just because of slight difference between two iterations of the same fight should not cause the entire novel to be retcon because of it, especially when certain statements have backing from the anime/manga and can provide helpfull information to many other parts of the anime/manga.

There are only little changes in both the versions and most of them are purely cosmetic like Momoshiki's design. Interesting thing to note here is that the movie design was Kishimoto's idea (as stated in the official movie guidebook) and the anime design was Ikemoto's. Which further confirms the involvement of Kishimoto in the movie.

The only meaningful difference between the two versions is that the movie version does not have the dialogue between Boruto and Momo after Momo's death. But the important thing to note is that the movie leaves it vague enough for us to argue that it did happen but we never saw Boruto's perspective. After that scene Boruto's hand was covered which eliminates the argument that the Movie version didn't have Karma in it.

In light of cosmetic changes I'd like to point out that these changes are present in every piece of media in the franchise. Boruto's manga outfit is different from his anime one in that arc. In fact the anime outfit is more in line with the movie. Same can be said about Naruto's. Which is why I think changes in appearance is a poor argument. Most plot points are intact between the two versions and any extra information only adds to our understanding of Kishimoto's vision.

The anime wasn't made to retcon the movie. The movie existed to gauge the interest in the idea, and the manga/anime only continued the story with a few minor design changes. The manga will always serve as the primary canon but the anime and the movie/novels help with the worldbuilding as the manga is notorious for not giving us that. For example: Sumire's backstory. Which is why I think that the parts of the movie/novels that do not contradict the manga in any meaningful way should be considered as supporting material to flesh out the Momoshiki invasion arc. Also Kishimoto is said to have been an executive producer in this movie's making as stated by the official Nard website and theofficial Naruto website lists the movie novelization among other novels that are considered canon material here. You can see that Kishimoto is credited here.

Thanks to Hellothere for providing the necessary information and help.

Agree- @LordGriffin1000, MinatoSparkle, Tdjwo, Testarossa002, Stryker861, Fastestthingalive50, KaydeeX, Apollonir.Scale, HelloThere1089, @DarkDragonMedeus, NaruRiasUzumaki, ScalingRandomVerse, Avengershows, RanaProGamer, DavidTPPM, @Shadowbokunohero, Patates

Neutral- Godernet, karo_senpaii

Disagree- @Damage3245, @KingTempest, spectra_schiffer, Guacamolefletcher
 
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I think you could've definitely been a lot more clear in this explanation, so I don't know what exactly you're trying to use for support, so I'll stay neutral for now
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Did this feat take place in the manga?
Click to expand...
The Chunin Exam arc is a bit weird in regards to the manga, because it went:
Movie -> Novelization -> Manga -> Anime, with the Anime mixing parts of the novelization and manga adaptation, so I wouldn't necessarily use it as an end-all-be-all measuring tool in this context, especially given how rushed it was.
 
Avengershows said:
The Chunin Exam arc is a bit weird in regards to the manga, because it went:
Movie -> Novelization -> Manga -> Anime, with the Anime mixing parts of the novelization and manga adaptation, so I wouldn't necessarily use it as an end-all-be-all measuring tool in this context, especially given how rushed it was.
Click to expand...
I mean it depends. I know we use the manga and anime but if the feat just didn't exist in one, it could potentially cause issues. To be clear, I think the statement is pretty clear cut that Momoshiki created it but I'm simply wondering about the versions of the events.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I mean it depends. I know we use the manga and anime but if the feat just didn't exist in one, it could potentially cause issues. To be clear, I think the statement is pretty clear cut that Momoshiki created it but I'm simply wondering about the versions of the events.
Click to expand...
Yeah I honestly have no clue if it's in the manga, but I'm just prefacing that the Chunin Exam arc in the manga is rushed/overtly faced paced with little dialogue in case it isn't there.
Though yeah, it's very much stated it was created by him.
I calculated it below here too, so have fun deciding on stuff ig:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Momoshiki dimension creation thing idk

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
First things first, this is NOT a minor revision as the title puts it
Seeing as it's a discussion rule. Meaning that it had been debated to death on this site
Secondly, I'm fairly certain we don't use Kaguya's anime backstory or any part of the anime for scaling purposes.
Thirdly, I agree with the thread's overall premise
It doesn't really contradict anything in the manga.
By contradict, I mean conflicting informations
 
Testarossa002 said:
First things first, this is NOT a minor revision as the title puts it
Seeing as it's a discussion rule. Meaning that it had been debated to death on this site
Secondly, I'm fairly certain we don't use Kaguya's anime backstory or any part of the anime for scaling purposes.
Thirdly, I agree with the thread's overall premise
It doesn't really contradict anything in the manga.
By contradict, I mean conflicting informations
Click to expand...
At first it was a minor addition, but then had to clarify the thread a little more and it out to be a major thing....

And the kaguya thing was used for hags scaling if I am not mistaken
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
Alright this is a small and simple CRT, certain Parts/statements of the Boruto movie novelization should be allowed to be used as supporting material for feats from the manga and anime especially when they don't contradict anything in the anime/manga.

As only the fight was retcon by the anime/manga, as such feats from the novel/movie won't be applicable for use. But that does not mean we should completely retcon the entire novel for just a slight difference between the two iterations of the fight. Especially when we use things like Kaguya's backstory which is an anime filler, with certain parts of it being retconned by the boruto anime/manga and in general just being a mess. Also Kishimoto is said to have been an executive producer in this movie's making as stated by the official Nard website.

Now the real reason for creating this thread is to get the Momoshiki creating his dimension statement from the the novels accepted as its also backed up by the anime where he calls the dimension his " nursery " and no his not referring to the planet as he calls that the seedbed. This would make sense considering that the definition of a seedbed is

● a bed of fine soil in which seedlings are germinated (Google)

With the bed being the planet and the seedling being the ten tails. Plus it would not make sense for the planet to be called a nursery as the term seedbed would make more sense to use in this instance due to its definition stated above and the nature of how the God Tree comes to be . Furthermore the definition of a nursery is

● a place where young plants and trees are grown for sale or for planting elsewhere. (Google)

This further supports that the dimension is the nursery as the dimension is the place/area where the seedbed (planet) is placed in for the seedling (ten tails) to grow and mature.

Agree-


Disagree-
Click to expand...
Neutral leaning slightly towards agreeing for now. Would wait for other comments.
 
Tbh I don't even understand the retcon argument to begin with. The anime and manga both show different events and we use the both as canon. And I might be wrong here as I haven't seen the anime in a long time, but doesn't it commonly adapt these Boruto novels with usually only minor changes? Hell The Last has notable differences between movie and novel.

What I'm getting at here is that the retcon of certain minor parts of the novel does not necessarily imply the retcon of the entire novel.

Tho I could be just talking out of my ass here because I haven't been really keeping up with Naruto stuff on the wiki
 
So I recently went through the movie and the anime versions of the same events and I'd like to point out some observations. There are only little changes in both the versions and most of them are purely cosmetic like Momoshiki's design. Interesting thing to note here is that the movie design was Kishimoto's idea (as stated in the official movie guidebook) and the anime design was Ikemoto's. Which further confirms the involvement of Kishimoto in the movie.

The only meaningful difference between the two versions is that the movie version does not have the dialogue between Boruto and Momo after Momo's death. But the important thing to note is that the movie leaves it vague enough for us to argue that it did happen but we never saw Boruto's perspective. After that scene Boruto's hand was covered which eliminates the argument that the Movie version didn't have Karma in it.

In light of cosmetic changes I'd like to point out that these changes are present in every piece of media in the franchise. Boruto's manga outfit is different from his anime one in that arc. In fact the anime outfit is more in line with the movie. Same can be said about Naruto's. Which is why I think changes in appearance is a poor argument. Most plot points are intact between the two versions and any extra information only adds to our understanding of Kishimoto's vision.

The anime wasn't made to retcon the movie. The movie existed to gauge the interest in the idea, and the manga/anime only continued the story with a few minor design changes. The manga will always serve as the primary canon but the anime and the movie/novels help with the worldbuilding as the manga is notorious for not giving us that. For example: Sumire's backstory. Which is why I think that the parts of the movie/novels that do not contradict the manga in any meaningful way should be considered as supporting material to flesh out the Momoshiki invasion arc.

Edit: Idk how important this is, but the official Naruto website lists the movie novelization among other novels that are considered canon material here. You can see that Kishimoto is credited as the Exec Producer.

@AlternativePrinciple If you'd like you can add these points or link this comment in the OP.
 
Last edited:
HelloThere1089 said:
So I recently went through the movie and the anime versions of the same events and I'd like to point out some observations. There are only little changes in both the versions and most of them are purely cosmetic like Momoshiki's design. Interesting thing to note here is that the movie design was Kishimoto's idea (as stated in the official movie guidebook) and the anime design was Ikemoto's. Which further confirms the involvement of Kishimoto in the movie.

The only meaningful difference between the two versions is that the movie version does not have the dialogue between Boruto and Momo after Momo's death. But the important thing to note is that the movie leaves it vague enough for us to argue that it did happen but we never saw Boruto's perspective. After that scene Boruto's hand was covered which eliminates the argument that the Movie version didn't have Karma in it.

In light of cosmetic changes I'd like to point out that these changes are present in every piece of media in the franchise. Boruto's manga outfit is different from his anime one in that arc. In fact the anime outfit is more in line with the movie. Same can be said about Naruto's. Which is why I think changes in appearance is a poor argument. Most plot points are intact between the two versions and any extra information only adds to our understanding of Kishimoto's vision.

The anime wasn't made to retcon the movie. The movie existed to gauge the interest in the idea, and the manga/anime only continued the story with a few minor design changes. The manga will always serve as the primary canon but the anime and the movie/novels help with the worldbuilding as the manga is notorious for not giving us that. For example: Sumire's backstory. Which is why I think that the parts of the movie/novels that do not contradict the manga in any meaningful way should be considered as supporting material to flesh out the Momoshiki invasion arc.

@AlternativePrinciple If you'd like you can add these points or link this comment in the OP.

Edit: Idk how important this is, but the official Naruto website lists the movie novelization among other novels that are considered canon material here. You can see that Kishimoto is credited as the Exec Producer.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this contribution
 
What exactly are you trying to bring from the novel to the canon story?
 
Ah, this again... Well, I'm not really seeing anything new here. I don't see a good reason why we should consider the novel as being canon.
 
Neutral for now,

if there is enough evidence of Kishi being directly involved then ig using it for things not shown in the manga is ok.

although for things that are shown in all versions of the Momo Arc, the manga and anime depictions should be used over the tertiary movie and movie novelization

although I am skeptical of using a product that was created before Boruto was even planned to be a series at all.

especially when we have proper adaptations via anime and manga to use.

And there are some notable(albeit not huge) changes made for the main canon after the fact,

some changes like more definitive statements for Momo > Kaguya, the introduction of Karma, the involvment of characters like Toneri, Urashiki, and Kashin Koji, slight changes in how characters performed in the fights, slight changes in motivations and dialogue, and the obvious change in Fused Momo.
 
Last edited:
Damage3245 said:
Ah, this again... Well, I'm not really seeing anything new here. I don't see a good reason why we should consider the novel as being canon.
Click to expand...
there is little to no difference between both adaption, plus the manga was rushed as it is, during the chuunin exam, wit little dialog here and there. Whereas the anime takes material from both the novels/movie and manga and in general being a much cleaner adaptation
 
Godernet said:
Neutral for now,

if there is enough evidence of Kishi being directly involved then ig using it for things not shown in the manga is ok.
Click to expand...
There is. It's in the OP.
Godernet said:
although for things that are shown in all versions of the Momo Arc, the manga and anime depictions should be used over the tertiary movie and movie novelization
Click to expand...
I get what you mean, but the only things that are gonna be used are stuff that isn't contradicted by the primary material. Manga and Anime give less text info as compared to the Novels, so using the Novel to establish the narrative that the author envisioned is reasonable imo.
Godernet said:
although I am skeptical of using a product that was created before Boruto was even planned to be a series at all.

especially when we have proper adaptations via anime and manga to use and there are some notable(albeit not huge) changes made for the main canon after the fact.
Click to expand...
The issue is that the anime and the manga are not as text heavy as the novels. Which is why incorporating the novel whenever it doesn't contradict the primary source will give a more comprehensive picture. Since all of it was written by Kishimoto, I doubt his original vision changed much.

Edit: Imo the fact that the anime made such an effort to keep it as consistent with movie leads me to believe that the supporting stuff should be used.
 
Damage3245 said:
Ah, this again... Well, I'm not really seeing anything new here. I don't see a good reason why we should consider the novel as being canon.
Click to expand...
Nobody is trying to make the entirety of the novel canon, but rather use certain parts of it (that have not been changed) as supporting evidence from feats/statements done within the anime/manga, such as using the dimension creation statement as support for the very explicit statement made by Momoshiki in the anime about creating the dimension.
 
Damage3245 said:
Ah, this again... Well, I'm not really seeing anything new here. I don't see a good reason why we should consider the novel as being canon.
Click to expand...
You could disagree with the feat and still agree with the novel being canon. Because honestly the former doesn't defeat the latter.
At the end of the day what matters is the points in the op. And honestly there might be interesting feats and abilities in the movie and novel that just because it wasn't recognised as canon people just decided to not bother checking them
 
My thoughts are simply this, I'm would be fine with accepting the novel as a secondary source but only to things that are supporting things from the Manga.

For example, Momoshiki has his "Nursery" in the anime. However, we lack confirmation he created it, but thanks to a support statement from the novel, we can conclude that he did construct it. Now, if an ability was used or event took place in the novel that never was shown, mentioned or hinted at in the anime/manga, that should not be taken as nothing supports it happening in the main material.

AlternativePrinciple said:
The anime wasn't made to retcon the movie. The movie existed to gauge the interest in the idea, and the manga/anime only continued the story with a few minor design changes. The manga will always serve as the primary canon but the anime and the movie/novels help with the worldbuilding as the manga is notorious for not giving us that. For example: Sumire's backstory. Which is why I think that the parts of the movie/novels that do not contradict the manga in any meaningful way should be considered as supporting material to flesh out the Momoshiki invasion arc. Also Kishimoto is said to have been an executive producer in this movie's making as stated by the official Nard website and theofficial Naruto website lists the movie novelization among other novels that are considered canon material here. You can see that Kishimoto is credited here.
Click to expand...
Before I fully agree though, could you point to exactly were it says Kishimoto is credited in the link of the part I bolded? I see multiple novels but which one am I suppose to be looking at. (I'm tired as hell by the way, just got home from work so if it's in the open and I missed it, I apologize.)
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
My thoughts are simply this, I'm would be fine with accepting the novel as a secondary source but only to things that are supporting things from the Manga.

For example, Momoshiki has his "Nursery" in the anime. However, we lack confirmation he created it, but thanks to a support statement from the novel, we can conclude that he did construct it. Now, if an ability was used or event took place in the novel that never was shown, mentioned or hinted at in the anime/manga, that should not be taken as nothing supports it happening in the main material.
Click to expand...
Makes sense honestly. The novel doesn't even have any outlandish feats to begin with. It just has the "tell" that the anime's "Show not tell" doesn't if that makes sense.
LordGriffin1000 said:
Before I fully agree though, could you point to exactly were it says Kishimoto is credited in the link of the part I bolded? I see multiple novels but which one am I suppose to be looking at. (I'm tired as hell by the way, just got home from work so if it's in the open and I missed it, I apologize.)
Click to expand...
Hopefully this makes it clearer.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Now, if an ability was used or event took place in the novel that never was shown, mentioned or hinted at in the anime/manga, that should not be taken as nothing supports it happening in the main material.
Click to expand...
I don’t exactly see why not as long as it doesn't outright contradict the main source.

At worst it should be given a "possibly" rating imo
 
HelloThere1089 said:
Hopefully this makes it clearer.
Click to expand...
Oh, that scan, it was the same as the other. Alright then, I thought it was a different one. Anyway, I'm fine with the Novel being used as support.

DavidTPPM said:
I don’t exactly see why not as long as it doesn't outright contradict the main source.

At worst it should be given a "possibly" rating imo
Click to expand...
The fact that it never happened in the current main material is a contradiction in itself. You can't just start giving characters things they don't show in the main material that's currently taking priority. For a hypothetical example, if in the novel, Momoshiki has a jutsu that created a literal black hole that was going to swallow the planet, this cannot be added because this wasn't shown or hinted that he can do it in the anime/manga or movie that it was adapted from. That's my final take on that. If other staff agree with adding stuff regardless then I won't argue, but I'm not in favor of that. If you want to argue some minor fight cuts/alternations here or there then sure, feats that are still in the realm of the characters work because that level of power can be backed up, but abilities, that's a different story.

This site already has some issues with accepting literal Word of God statements that aren't contradict in the main material simply because it's not supported but aren't disproven either. I'd rather we not go down that route with secondary source of media being used in the same vain.
 
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