Non-Canon DBZ Profiles

[SomebodyData]

Apparently, some of the non-canon 4-A DBZ movie characters (ex: Janemba, Gogeta, Hirudegarn) were downgraded without the disscussion of all members (Here is where it happened https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Gogeta ), and because of which, I feel rather forced to write down this thread, basically putting the feats that show why the profiles should be 4-A rather than 4-B in my opinion.

-Kid Buu's 4-A feat. (Argued to be an outlier, but considering the feats bellow...)

-Broly's 4-A feat (Basically proof the above feat isn't an outlier)

-King Kai stating that Broly would then eventually destroy the Northern Galaxy if he wasn't stopped

-Ero's Shadow Dragons 3-C statement by Mr.Popo (At best, it could be argued to be only for the Top tiers of GT, however, it would force people like Base GT Goku to be 4-A, which by the way, was SSJ3 Z Goku level)

-Omega Shenron apparently said his Negative Karma Ball can gradually the universe (4 galaxies) , which again, forces Z characters to 4-A.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Looks reasonable but if you could provide Mr. Popo statement that would be great.

 

[SomebodyData]

Looks reasonable but if you could provide Mr. Popo statement that would be great.

Hmm, can't find the exact time but it happens in DB GT episode 48

 

[Ryukama]

If noncanon GT gets 4-A due to feats within the anime, I think it is reasonable for Gogeta and Janemba to similarly get that. However all canon profiles should stay where they are of course.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yes @Ryu

 

[Promestein]

Agreed.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Pretty much what Ryu said, yeah. GT and DB movie characters get the scaling. Canon profiles go by their canon feats and calcs.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Yeah I did mean to come back to this but yeah. Lets see here.

1.Outlier.

2.Outlier.

You can have multiple outlier in a series, you know.

Restricted Super Saiyan Broly being MSS+ or Galaxy is lulz. that puts him over Anime Super perfect Cell a stupid amount of times.

And the rest of the cast never once showed anything in the Ballpark of MSS.

I don't know about the last one can't remember GT well enough.

Just a heads up for those who don't know. Kav agreed with my views on this, hence why they were downgraded the first time. he just doesn't have the time to babysit DB threads all day.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay then.....

 

[Promestein]

I just don't see why we'd make the movie things an outlier when the GT things aren't an outlier. There's no more context in GT for these feats than there is in the movies.

 

[Ryukama]

Agreed @Prom. Either both should be accepted or both discarded.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Can you elaborate what GT things Prom? I don't know it all that well

 

[Promestein]

IIRC the only notable destructive feat in GT is Omega Shenron destroying the universe over time via negative energy.

There's nothing supporting 4-A or 3-C save for Kid Buu's feat and that apparent statement about Galaxy level Shadow Dragons or whatever. If the movie characters will be 4-B, the GT characters should be too. Literally all of them, because none of them would be capable of rising above that ridiculous difference from the top and bottom of Solar System level.

There's nothing that implies Broly is canon to GT, also, since he never appears and is never mentioned, unlike some other movie villains.

 

[LordAizenSama]

mm, makes sense. Solar System level is wide enough that it may end up like that. except possibly SSJ4 Gogeta getting a "At least".

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's nothing that implies Broly is canon to GT, also, since he never appears and is never mentioned, unlike some other movie villains.

Well, he appears in the background during the Super 17 Saga, but that's it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So....do we like downgrade them to 4-B by discarding any evidence that could put them at 4-A or higher?

 

[Promestein]

I'm fine with downgrading them to 4-B. We just shouldn't have conflicting stats for movie characters and GT characters.

I'm also fine with SSJ4 Gogeta (and presumably EoS Goku) being at least Solar System level, if any of them would qualify for that all.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. Downgrading them may be the only option we have to go by if there's nothing we can't possibly use to scale them higher.

So for me, i'm fine with them being possibly downgraded to 4-B yes. *Nods*

 

[Ryukama]

I could see why Broly being MSS may be inconsistent with the anime timeline, but how would Buu's feat be if this is just a new villain and new power ups that the characters get? Kind of like Shadow Dragons and SSJ4 Gogeta being Galaxy isn't considered an outlier due to being new forms and characters.

 

[Promestein]

Kid Buu is actually inconvenienced - and harmed - by SSJ2 Vegeta during their fight at the end of the Buu Saga. There's no way Vegeta - who was legitimately impressed that SSJ2 Goku was stronger than Gohan in his prime - is so much stronger than SPC and SSJ2 Gohan that he's at the top of Solar System level, and if he wasn't at least at the very top of Solar System level, Buu shouldn't have had any trouble with him at all. It could be PIS, but it's still super inconsistent. There's all the other absurd power differences it could lead to, as well - while those aren't as ridiculous for strong GT characters, the feat's still not really usable.

There's not a feat after it that supports it in the slightest, either. I mean, there's Shenron's gradual universe destruction, but that's not combat applicable at all, so it's basically useless and can't be judged on the same basis.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@ryu Because that means Buu would be trillions of times stronger then SPC. Base Goku being tens of Billions of times stronger then SPC, etc etc.

 

[Ryukama]

@Prom alright thanks for explaining. I didn't realize there were considerable contradictions to the feat such as the ones you explained.

@Aizen with new power ups, characters tend to be vastly superior to each other as authors generally do not understand the gaps of destructive capabilities. If Buu being MSS has no direct contradictions, then it should be considered regardless of the gap he'd have over Cell. But since as Prom implied there do seem to be contradictions to this, so I guess so.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@ryu I could write a pretty good list of inconsistencies that would bring.(Gohan's weaker SSJ2 Ki filling up 30% of Fat Buu's energy who could tango with Kid buu for some time) But I don't think it's necessary.

Also Theres no real "Author" for Buu's MSS feat, many people are involved with the making of the anime, so it's not surprising it's inconsistent with everything else.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

I disagree with the downgrade for obvious reason.

All of these Feats and statement can't be ignore it seems like downplaying to me 2 MSS feat and a Galaxy statement via Guidebook and Mr.Popo for the Shadow Dragons plus a Universal destruction over time which would put Omega and Gogeta at Galaxy level since 4 galaxys that will be destroyed over time.

Still don't see how GT character should be affected but that's just my me.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

@ryu I could write a pretty good list of inconsistencies that would bring.(Gohan's weaker SSJ2 Ki filling up 30% of Fat Buu's energy who could tango with Kid buu for some time) But I don't think it's necessary.
Also Theres no real "Author" for Buu's MSS feat, many people are involved with the making of the anime, so it's not surprising it's inconsistent with everything else.

This argument is kinda off because that same Machine that was used for Gohan power absorption says that kili 1=50000 Battlepower and Dabura stated 300 Kili is enough to bust a planet so this argument should be ignored completely imo because 18000 was stated to bust a planet normally.

 

[Promestein]

@All 1 kili = 50, 000 BP was only stated in a V-Jump. It's canonicity is debatable, and it's irrelevant anyways since that was ONLY stated in a V-Jump issue.

 

[LordAizenSama]

im not surprised that toryama has no idea how Dragon balls power levels go with destroying things. but that does not in any way discredit the percentage of power Gohans ki gave to buu

And where is that conversion stated btw?

EDIT:Nevermind Prom's got it. figured as much.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I remember Lord Kavpeny's reasoning, GT is a direct continuation of the DBZ anime, which included the Buu feat, whereas the movie characters are part of a completely separate continuity. In addition, it does fit with Omega Shenron being a gradual multi-galactic threat.

We should probably wait for Kavpeny to check out this thread first, as he wants to handle Dragon Ball matters. However, he has not replied to my messages for about a week now.

 

[Kavpeny]

• This has already been discussed. Kid Buu's feat was dismissed and reverted because it was highly inconsistent. I don't remember where the discussions took place, but I distinctly remember it caused Buu saga base Goku being 200x stronger than base Gohan, along with other significant inconsistencies. As I have stated previously, the 4-A feat is not accepted due to inconsistency, which renders the canonicity point moot. Prom's explanation also makes sense.
• Agree with Aize. Broly's infamous statement would completely mess up all pre-Cell saga statistics. Additionally, as Antvasima correctly stated, the Dragon Ball movies are one-offs that do not fit into the time-line.
• IIRC, the GT characters are scaled from base GT Goku = SS3 Z Goku >= Kid Buu (4-A).
  • However, Kid Buu has been downgraded to 4-B, due to #1, hence:
    • Base GT Goku, and the entirety of GT cast should be accordingly power-scaled/downgraded to 4-B
    • Except the following:
      • Shadow dragon saga SS4 Goku (Likely High 4-B)
      • SS4 Vegeta (Likely High 4-B)
      • Syn Shenron (Likely High 4-B)
      • Omega Shenron (High 4-B)
      • SS4 Gogeta (At least High 4-B, likely 4-A)
      • EoS Goku (Likely 4-A)
    • Nova Shenron's feat of almost killing Omega Shenron will be categorized as heat manipulation hax, and not affect either his AP or Durability stat (a.k.a. 4-B)
  • Any remnant 4-A ratings for movie characters should be downgraded to 4-B as well.
    • Janemba should retain the stats and range for his Reality Warping ability

Any disagreements?

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, for the stat changes...

(SSJ 4 Goku and Vegeta)

• Attack Potency: Likely High 4-B

(Syn Shenron)

• Attack Potency: Likely High 4-B (Comparable to SSJ 4 Goku and Vegeta)

(Omega Shenron)

• Attack Potency: High 4-B

(SS4 Gogeta)

• Attack Potency: At least High 4-B, likely 4-A

(EoS Goku)

• Attack Potency: Likely 4-A

Also, the mention on Broly's profile in regards to his AP stating "At least High 4-C, possibly 4-A" should be changed to just "At least High 4-C" as the feat with Broly destroying large parts of a galaxy was decided as inconsistent with the rest of the series, hence outlier.

Are these the correct proposed changes?

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry guys for not being here earlier, I also feel like I should mention there may be more feats, and I will look for them.

@Prom about your Kid Buu inconsistency, you do realize that Weighted Pikkon casually two shotted SPC right? ie the guy that base Goku fought. Yeah they did surpass SPC in non-canon quite fast. Also when did Vegeta say he was legit impressed in non-canon, specifically the episode number, just curious. Which, interestingly enough actually fits with your 200x statement @Lord K.

@Lord K based on sheer power scaling, Cell Saga Base Goku is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Frieza Saga Goku, such increases of power are pretty common in DBZ. As a matter of fact, Goku had a much greater amount of time and partners to increase his power with. Base Cell Saga Goku is also actually stronger than Frieza Saga SSJ Goku by a big margin.

@LAS about your "inconsistency" that is not how it works, Buu's "energy was simply the energy he needed to come back, not his actual ki capabilities, if it was his actual ki capabilities he could just charge himself back after getting enough power to comew back to life in order to be at 100%.

@LAS and Lord K, RSSJ Broly didnt do most of the damage to the southern galaxy, in fact, Pegasus had only gained control well in to his adult years, as shown by Pegasus's flashback. Why does that matter? Well, considering how Pegasus had already known about the LSSJ transformation, it suggests that for a while, Broly had switched between SSJ and LSSJ transformations. Although, even if he was RSSJ,. I should add that RSSJ Broly>>> ASSJ Vegeta, to the point of not even being damaged and breaking his spirit.

@Antvasima and Lord K, Pegasus appears in GT, kinda meaning that the Broly movie is canon to it. Not to mention, Broly fits in the 9 days wait, proving that Broly *The one that matters here) at least is in there

I still haven't heard something disproving what happened to Eros though.

 

[SomebodyData]

Also "An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

I'm not exactly sure how 2 feats and 3 statements putting the same group of characters in the same tier can all be considered outliers, unless you're telling me there is much more feats/statements that I'm unaware of contradicting these?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Just to make sure, the DBZ movies are a completely separate continuity from the main anime series, correct? If it is so,

However, with SD's example of Paragas (Pegasus?) and Broly appearing in GT as background characters, I am on the fence that:

1) The movies themselves should be considered a separate continuity

or

2) The movies happened in the same timeline as the anime series itself.

With that said, if Broly destroying the galaxy over time is not considered an outlier, and if the movies are considered within the same timeline as the anime series, there could be a chance that Cell's statement in regards to destroying the Solar System against SSJ2 Gohan could be an outlier in the opposite direction as Cell should be Multi-Solar System level based on scaling from Broly.

This would also mean that anime Broly, Cell, and Majin Buu (all forms) would be at Multi-Solar System level, and would also make Omega Shenron's statement in regards to his Negative Karma ball destroying the galaxy a valid feat.

This would only occur if point #2 is true however.

Thoughts?

@Prom:

I remember from the watching the anime where Super Buu was being affected by hits from SSJ Goku and Vegeta while they were inside Super Buu's body (albeit Super Buu was toying with them most likely).

Also, following up from above point, Vegeta hurting Kid Buu with his punches shouldn't be taken too seriously (although Vegeta was seriously amped with rage, which boosts his powers tremendously) as Kid Buu was not taking the fight all that seriously against both SSJ 2 Vegeta and SSJ 3 Goku throughout the fight.

 

[SomebodyData]

Garlic Jr. (movie character) also appears in the anime btw, he even gets an entire saga

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That may complicate matters. The problem is still that, as far as I understand, the movies largely do not fit into the timeline though.

 

[SomebodyData]

Hmmm, last time I checked, Broly, which is currently the one that is most needed in this thread, does fit in the 9 days wait for the Cell Games

 

[Antvasima]

So, the entire DBZ cast ran off to fight Broly in the middle of the Cell story? That does not make any sense.

 

[SomebodyData]

In the 9 days wait there really wasn't anything going on for the main cast except for the occasional training although the main cast did have it's fair of time relaxing, espically Gohan and Goku.

How does that not make sense? Sorry if I'm missing something here.

 

[CuriousWatcher]

@ Antvasima

They didn't "ran off". Sometime during these 9 days, Broly arrived with his father and lost control thus they had to fight him. It was in the span of 2 days.

 

[Antvasima]

Was this mentioned in the movie? In either case, Lord Kavpeny would have to make a decision about this. He wants to handle the Dragon Ball matters.