(Non-argumentative) 1-A superiority

[Hat_mchat]

I looked at DB nyarlathotep page and it seems she doesn't have type-5 immortality or conceptual manipulation/transcendence which cthulhu mythos nyarlathotep does have. In my opinion this is a very important difference, though i don't know much about DB so there could be something I'm missing.

Based on what I've seen though, i don't understand why people say that DB nya has more 'power' (if you can really call it that) when DB nya only seems to transcend dimensional space, but not all perspective.

 

[Beyond21]

nya shouldnt have type 5 immortality. thats reserved for tier 0's and high 1-A's

 

[Antvasima]

Well, tier 0 only really.

 

[Beyond21]

yeah. i was always wondering why people like featherine has type 5 immortality. i mean, the Creator could erase her with a thought, so....

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it could, if it has a consciousness. Are there any other pages that should not have the ability listed?

 

[Beyond21]

nya from cthulhu mythos. only tier 1-A but has type 5 immortality

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

This was already talked about a while back

Tier 0s, by their very definition, can do whatever the hell they want. If they want to kill someone with Type 5 immortality, they can. Does that stop it being Type 5? No, because if they are unkillable by literally everything else except a being that casually screws over any and all concepts of logic simply by existing, they're immortality is functionally perfect.

 

[Antvasima]

@Beyond21

Okay. On the other hand Nyarlathotep is supposed to be Azathoth's avatar, if I remember correctly, so the type 5 immortality might be legitimate.

I will ask Azathoth (the bureaucrat) and DarkLK about it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Avatar" is never used, but viewing it like that wouldn't exactly be inaccurate. Nyarlathotep is repeatedly stated to be Azathoth's (and the Outer Gods as a whole) "messenger and soul". Four times in Dream-Quest on its own, iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so should Nyarlathotep keep the immortality type 5 rating, which is normally reserved for tier 0 entities?

 

[Antvasima]

@Monarch Laciel

Well, type 5 is supposed to be not just for functionally perfect immortality, but for absolutely perfect immortality.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Dunno. Depends on the justification you want to give it. In universe, anything on the Outer Gods' level wouldn't be able to be "killed" at all, since "fighting" or taking any sort of action does not occur on the level of existence they occupy. The reasoning of "can not be killed ever" would apply in this case, as would pretty much doing anything that affects them. Azathoth could theoretically get rid of them, but won't because it occupies the same type of existence.

Pretty much any reason to give Nyarlathotep Type 5 would apply to the other Outer Gods, is what I'm saying. If you strictly want to boil it down to things most directly related to Azathoth, that would be Nyarlathotep, the Mist, and the Darkness, and due to that likely Yog-Sothoth, as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the principle that we use in this wiki is that any beings that have a higher entity above them that can technically kill them, does not have absolutely perfect immortality. Possibly almost, but not quite.

 

[Hat_mchat]

If you say nyarlathotep doesn't have type 5 immortality because azathoth can kill him, surely this applies to all tier 0s as they can each kill each other or otherwise they wouldn't be tier 0 as that would be a limitation.

 

[Antvasima]

You seem to be talking about the omnipotence paradox. We do not consider tier 0 characters as proven omnipotents. Nor do we consider them as capable of dying as far as I am aware.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, that is where the problem in-universe comes from. Azathoth is at the top of the rung and theoretically could "kill" the other Outer Gods, but this would require you to strip a core principle of their nature, which is existing at the apex of existence at a point in which there is no such thing as change or perspective. There is no means of "killing" them because there is only truthfully ever one state of existence, and that is all there ever will be. You could argue it's not perfect immortality because the verse's Tier 0 could "kill" them, but this is not technically true unless we go into solutions branching out from basic can/can't and is/isn't.

Like I said, the problem is that by their very nature as described in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, giving a simple answer to a question like this isn't feasible.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hat mchat

Also, I would appreciate if you do not interrupt. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Okay. How about if Azathoth simply eradicated their personalities, separations, senses of self, the concepts that they personify, etcetera, and basically utterly consumed them. Wouldn't that achieve the same result by destroying them?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

DarkLK gave the following reply regarding Featherine:

"Death (erasure from existence of her own level) for her is something like a vacation. Although the same with all other meta-beings.

And considering its nature, total annihilation for her will mean becoming one with the Creator. I doubt that there are other options. She also can be interpreted as a role that the Creator itself plays.

However, I do not know where you are using your type 5. To be honest, it's strange if it's exclusive to tier 0. I mean that it makes no sense to keep a lot of abilities for tier 0 only."

Given that both of you seem to disagree with our current restriction to tier 0 only, do you think that we should reword the type 5 definition text, and if so, do you have any appropriate suggestions?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

Yes. The issue is with the fact that Azathoth wouldn't do anything, nor would anything actually happen to the Outer Gods themselves. "Never" isn't really the proper term for something beyond all forms of time, but they simply never would have existed.

It'll probably be easier to explain why this is such a pain to properly quantify if I post some quotes.

Time, change, and motion on all levels are illusion.

"Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously."

The Outer Gods do not experience this. They view reality as totally unchanging, because that is what it truly is.

"After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

Keep in mind this is not merely referring to time and change as we know it, nor to purely physical dimensions. It also includes their metaphysical analogues, because those beings as well experience their own forms of change. As an example, the realm of 'Umr at-Tawil is mentioned by name, and referred to as a "small wholeness" and "infinitessimal thing".

"The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where 'Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."

As I said before, this limit of "change" applies to metaphysical/transdimensional analogues of normal dimensions as well, for said "infinitessimal thing" was already beyond the infinite spatial dimensions of physical reality.

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

This is the issue with the Outer Gods. They do not experience any form of change. They do not fight. They do not have a limited sense of self. They simply are, like an unchanging idea. They would not be without Azathoth, just as everything else wouldn't. However, while the family tree we are given is true, it does not mean the same thing as a traditional family tree. Something like "Azathoth begat the Mist, who begat, Yog-Sothoth, etc.". It's more akin to "These things have always been, and they are because Azathoth".

tl;dr It's ******* complicated.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Given that both of you seem to disagree with our current restriction to tier 0 only, do you think that we should reword the type 5 definition text, and if so, do you have any appropriate suggestions?

Yes. Definitely.

Makes it a lot easier.

Stuff like Featherine and the Outer Gods (as I explained above) are prime examples.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I would appreciate if you could write a new definition text for the Immortality page. You can start a staff thread about it first, just to keep everybody informed about the change.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I will think up a new definition first, and then make the thread before adding it. Lemme think for a minute.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Inability to suffer any kind of death or annihilation on a fundamental level, due to the character being completely beyond such concepts. Typically requires a character to be at least very high-end Outerverse level, and only questionable omnipotents have this by default."

This is a rough summarization of the general idea, so anything you think might make it more clear is appreciated.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

@Azathoth. I don't mean to sound like the devil's advocate here, but I want to raise a question. If an entity is beyond death/annihilation/change/other concepts, what would we do in the case if said entity forced itself to change or die?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth. I don't mean to sound like the devil's advocate here, but I want to raise a question. If an entity is beyond death/annihilation/change/other concepts, what would we do in the case if said entity forced itself to change.

Do you mean if an entity could die and couldn't die simultaneously?

Because said entity would be non-dualistic by default.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

I am personally fine with that definition. Should we close this thread then?

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Thank you, I was referring to the case of The Presence in which he created a sword that was then used by Gabriel Hornblower to "kill" him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

I suppose. I will make the new thread once you do.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will lock this now.