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@Dragon there's nothing about the argument we presented for nightmare that's flawed. You're trying to bypass the hax he has by saying that because Nightmare is weaker, even though that's not even noteworthy since it's not a 2X gap, it automatically means something as simple as thorns is going to be impossible to get out. There's nothing that suggest that the thorns can't be avoided, especially when FT characters that can't teleport can dodge them.