Nightcrawler (and also Azazel) Revision

[LordTracer]

So Nightcrawler is currently scaled to 9-A, with the AP description of “Shouldn't be overwhelmingly weaker than Daredevil.” There’s no scans for this, and scaling him to Daredevil just seems really random. So let’s take a look at some of his feats:

• Amazing X-Men Vol. 2 #4: Kurt seems to harm a feral Beast.
• Nightcrawler Vol. 3 #11: Kurt snaps Logan’s neck, while Logan is possessed by Hive.
• Nightcrawler Vol. 3 #12: Kurt spars evenly with a suppressed Logan, but Kurt himself isn’t at 100% either.
• Nightcrawler Vol. 4 #1: Kurt and Logan spar in the Danger Room.
• Nightcrawler Vol. 4 #9: Kurt outmaneuvers and incapacitates Beast, who is bloodlusted and trying to kill him due to being controlled by the Shadow King.

Overall, Kurt has fought Beast and Logan a decent amount of times, although he has directly stated that Beast has more raw strength than him. So he should just be 8-C, like Logan.

And this would obviously scale to Azazel, who has his own 8-C feats of tanking a kick from Beast and later harming him with a kick, albeit after stabbing him in the back, and all of this was in Amazing X-Men Vol. 2 #3. He was also able to draw blood from Sabretooth in X-Force Vol. 3 #25.

TLDR: Nightcrawler should be upgraded to 8-C due to his feats of fighting and harming Beast and Wolverine on multiple occasions, and this scales to Azazel, who has also fought Beast, as well as Sabretooth.

 

[The_Impress]

Yesyes 8-C Nightcrawler is extremely consistent

Literally all of these except the last one for Nightcrawler are LS feats, or both the characters holding back, and Azazel’s shit is laughably minor, considering Beast holds back and Sabretooth is the biggest jobber in this tier. Just because you FIGHT someone, doesn’t mean you scale to them in AP, because context matters. You should know this, Tracer, but I can take guesses why you magically are forgetting it right now

Just scale him to Iron Fist, Punisher and Karnak, problem fixed.

 

[Confluctor]

Why don't we do what we did with the herald tiers and do something like this "9-A, 8-C at peak", hm? It would solve the problem and also take into account their highs and lows

 

[The_Impress]

Dude just straight up has statements where he admits to be weaker than Wolverine tier, has antifeats of being oneshot by said Wolverine tier, and has fuckall feats.

Like, genuinely, his feats are actually dogshit there, LS is a different concept altogether than AP, and many characters in Marvel rely on tossing around characters because they weigh far less than what they can deal.

 

[The_Impress]

Going through these comics:

Amazing X-Men Vol. 2 #4: Kurt seems to harm a feral Beast.

Kurt also gets completely overpowered the very next page. He only harms him with what seems like a sword strike to begin with.

Nightcrawler Vol. 3 #11: Kurt snaps Logan’s neck, while Logan is possessed by Hive.

As said, LS.

Nightcrawler Vol. 3 #12: Kurt spars evenly with a suppressed Logan, but Kurt himself isn’t at 100% either.

Great, it's a completely irrelevant feat both have no scaling to. Don't bring it up.

Nightcrawler Vol. 4 #1: Kurt and Logan spar in the Danger Room.

And Nightcrawler fears for his life the very next page when Logan gets serious, at which point Storm has to ask Logan to quit it. In general they're not harming each other in that scan.

Nightcrawler Vol. 4 #9: Kurt outmaneuvers and incapacitates Beast, who is bloodlusted and trying to kill him due to being controlled by the Shadow King.

He's LITERALLY exploiting pressure points, applying what Wolverine taught him.

Non-conventional durability exploitation, not 8-C.

Overall, Kurt has fought Beast and Logan a decent amount of times, although he has directly stated that Beast has more raw strength than him. So he should just be 8-C, like Logan.

Sidenote Beast doesn't upscale from Wolverine, unless I need to adjust his wording

And this would obviously scale to Azazel, who has his own 8-C feats of tanking a kick from Beast and later harming him with a kick, albeit after stabbing him in the back, and all of this was in Amazing X-Men Vol. 2 #3. He was also able to draw blood from Sabretooth in X-Force Vol. 3 #25.

Which would imply he laughably upscales from Wolverine as Sabretooth has been stated a bajillion times to be stronger, yet he's magically weak whenever against anyone not him. Jobber syndrome.

Beast feat is already accounted for by Azazel having 8-C shit, and Beast won't actively try murdering him.

 

[LordTracer]

You should know this, Tracer, but I can take guesses why you magically are forgetting it right now

Yesyes 8-C Nightcrawler is extremely consistent

And you wonder why I said I think you’re condescending…

 

[LordTracer]

Kurt also gets completely overpowered the very next page. He only harms him with what seems like a sword strike to begin with.

You know the OP acknowledges that Kurt is weaker than Hank, right? And Kurt doesn’t once use a sword on Hank throughout that fight, Azazel’s sword is still stuck in Hank’s back.

And Nightcrawler fears for his life the very next page when Logan gets serious, at which point Storm has to ask Logan to quit it.

This is literally because Logan pulls out his claws, not just because he “gets serious.”

Whatever with everything else, but I had to address these two.

 

[The_Impress]

You know the OP acknowledges that Kurt is weaker than Hank, right? And Kurt doesn’t once use a sword on Hank throughout that fight, Azazel’s sword is still stuck in Hank’s back.

Unscaleably weaker, yes.

You acknowledging it doesn't make it valid suddenly.

This is literally because Logan pulls out his claws, not just because he “gets serious.”

Address the fact they're not even fighting in physicals, never land a single hit on each other, and Wolverine isn't even hitting to kill.

Whatever with everything else, but I had to address these two.

Concession accepted.

And you wonder why I said I think you’re condescending…

...Tracer do you think I don't recognise you suddenly attempting to upgrade Nightcrawler as soon as he became Wasp's sole scaling, a rating you proposed, and that you will never just say "oh, kay, I'm wrong on this" and instead "I won't comment on this/whatever"?

You're not creating an environment where I can believe you're not acting by bias, and unfair bias at that as you refuse to even accept when you're wrong and have me state it on your behalf.

 

[LordTracer]

...Tracer do you think I don't recognise you suddenly attempting to upgrade Nightcrawler as soon as he became Wasp's sole scaling, a rating you proposed, and that you will never just say "oh, kay, I'm wrong on this" and instead "I won't comment on this/whatever"?

For your information, Zark, I had been intending to upgrade several mutants to Captain America tier since early 2020 - Nightcrawler being one of them, as well as Psylocke, Magneto, Gambit, Mystique and many more - I just never got around to it because of other revisions and a lack of motivation. And honestly, I think Janet being a 9-A physically makes more sense than her being 8-C, so like-

Y’know, you have my Discord, you could’ve just asked me about this instead of being rude.

 

[The_Impress]

...yet you very well tried to make Janet retain her 8-C tier on the thread itself. Sorry if you don't make it apparent.

You have my Discord too, you could've made me a fraction more aware Nightcrawler had 8-C feats in the thread before, or DM'd me that. You didn't.

Anyways I fixed up Nightcrawler's justifications.

 

[LordTracer]

You have my Discord too, you could've made me a fraction more aware Nightcrawler had 8-C feats in the thread before, or DM'd me that. You didn't.

I was more focused on the characters you brought up in that thread, I didn’t want to bring more characters into it when it was already a big revision.

...yet you very well tried to make Janet retain her 8-C tier on the thread itself. Sorry if you don't make it apparent.

That was because your argument against it was her using her stingers on Logan, which just didn’t happen.

Anyways I fixed up Nightcrawler's justifications.

Good, this can be closed.