New Ability for Goku: Resistance to Time-Stop/Manipulation

[Goodyfresh]

Hi guys so I noticed that Goku, as of the recent Tournament Arc in Dragon Ball Super, does have, in the series-canon, a new ability which is a type of Haxx-Resistance: Namely, he is resistant to some degree against Hit's time-stopping power when he raises his power enough using Kaio-Ken+SSJGSS. This appears to be something along the lines of "transcendental speed transcending time," or something. . .no real explanation is given for how Goku does it. However, the bottom line is that Hit freezes time for a second or two, but Goku is able to move during the stopped time and punch Hit.

So I propose that we add "some level of resistance to time-manipulation" or "limited resistance to time-stopping powers" to the list of Goku's abilities. THIS IS VERY NOTABLE FOR GOKU AS A CHARACTER, as it is Goku's first real feat showing any kind of resistance against what can really be considered true haxx! KICKASS!

 

[Battlemania]

If I recall correctly, Goku was only able to keep up due to pre-cog, guessing the next move before timestop.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

If I recall correctly, Goku was only able to keep up due to pre-cog, guessing the next move before timestop.

Let me try to guess this part: Was it because of King Kai that said it?

 

[Battlemania]

• shrugs* I'm not one for DBS, but I am just assuming based on sheer memory. I'd have to come back and actually research more.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

iirc, I thought we decided that this has more to do with Hit's limitations than Goku's abilities. I could be wrong though.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

• shrugs* Don't know, Cal. In any case, i just wanted to ask Battlemania's comment, that's all,.

 

[Goodyfresh]

No no guys. AT FIRST he was just overcoming Hit's ability using, not pre-cog, but actually PREDICTED HIT'S MOVES simply using his insane battle experience and knowledge of tactics and martial-arts. However, LATER in the fight, once Goku went Kai-Kenx10 while already Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (UGH that's such a damn mouthful), he was indeed able to legitimately move and punch hit during stopped time. Hit then started to "evolve" his time-stopping ability and became able to freeze Goku to some extent again, then Goku could move again, they exchanged blows, etc. It was pretty crazy. There's no real explanation for Goku being able to move during stopped time except "his power has transcended that level," but nevertheless the fact is that HE DID DO SO.

Edit: Just went and checked, this was in the latter half of Episode 39 that this happened, if anyone else wants to go confirm to see what I'm talking about. Goku literally surpasses the time-stop ability with sheer levels of Ki. . .it's a BS explanation, sure, but the fact is that it works in-series, apparently, so we have to go with it and say "Goku has resistance to time-stop." The haxx of a guy like, say, Dio Brando, probably wouldn't work on him. So there ya go.

 

[Battlemania]

Well, the more I think about it, Goku HAS had a weird body that he has stated before can adapt to certain conditions that would be useless in a second time, though that was GT...

 

[Goodyfresh]

Well, the more I think about it, Goku HAS had a weird body that he has stated before can adapt to certain conditions that would be useless in a second time, though that was GT...

I don't think an actual mechanism behind it really needs to be debated, though. DBS is canon, by the original manga's author himself. In it, in the latter half of Ep. 39, Goku manages to move and punch Hit while Hit had stopped time, and outright states that his power has surpassed the Time Stop/Skip ability. That's all there is to it. He does it. Overcoming time-stopping abilities is a feat he is now clearly established as being able to perform. No he can't stop time himself, but he has resistance to the ability anyway.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Oh, it should be noted though that using the Kaio-Ken in conjunction with SSJGSS has major consequences for Goku, though; he ends up with "Ki Disorder" starting a couple days later, and for a week or two, as a result of doing so, and if he keeps using the technique it will eventually permanently damage the mechanisms by which his body produces Ki.

However, it's been stated by Akira Toriyama that there will be further types of SSJGSS transformations (presumably akin to Super Saiyan 2 and 3) in the series; which one can presume will equal or surpass the Kaio-Ken/SSJGSS fusion, anyway. Meaning that Goku's ability to resist time-stopping should remain a power of his even if he doesn't use the Kaio Ken in the future.

 

[Battlemania]

um, okay then...

 

[Asdtgh]

O thought he moved so fast that the limit of Hit's time leap sucks until he goes to a stance to somehow become stronger in his time leap

 

[Goodyfresh]

O thought he moved so fast that the limit of Hit's time leap sucks until he goes to a stance to somehow become stronger in his time leap

Well apparently there are different "levels" of time-stopping in the Dragon Ball universe. Later, Hit manages to evolve to a higher level of that, and still manages to freeze Goku to SOME extent. However, that does not change that earlier on, Goku did move during what was stopped time for something like a second or so. So he does have SOME resistance to time-stop. That's all I'm saying; that we put "some resistance to time-stopping abilities" in his list of powers.

 

[TakatoBlue]

Even if Goku could just see the future, Hit would probably beat him easily with Tokitobashi. Goku wouldn't react to this, because he just can't.

I mean ... if someone shoots you, you know where the bullet will reach, but there's nothing you can do.

So ... yeah, Goku did it while Hit had stopped time.

 

[Goodyfresh]

So ... yeah, Goku did it while Hit had stopped time.

No, it's even more than that, they don't just IMPLY that Goku moved within stopped time (which he DIDN'T earlier in the fight, he really was just predicting Hit's moves before the point where he used Kaio-Ken). Anyone who watched episode 39 can remember there was a part towards the end where Hit stopped time, but Goku moved within stopped time and said something like "I've moved far beyond your timeskip ability!" before punching Hit right in the Gut, all DURING the second or two that Hit had stopped time, within the frozen-time-weird-looking-space-thing that Hit's time-stop creates from his own and (apparently) the opponent's perspective. So it's DIRECTLY shown that Goku moves within the actual stopped time.

 

[Superkryptonian]

I think it's 2 conclusions, 1: goku has resistance to time hax in that form or 2: he BRIEFLY has infinite speed since he did move in frozen time. Note how i put an emphasis on briefly.

 

[Goodyfresh]

I think it's 2 conclusions, 1: goku has resistance to time hax in that form or 2: he BRIEFLY has infinite speed since he did move in frozen time. Note how i put an emphasis on briefly.

And either way it amounts to the same thing, which is brief resistance to time-hax. I highly doubt the "infinite speed" thing though since it was heavily implied he still isn't as powerful as Beerus' true level (namely, that the Kaio-Ken+SSJGSS would give Beerus "some trouble," but nothing more), and Beerus' speed is definitively FINITE. I think it's more that apparently, anybody with near-universe levels of Ki in Dragon Ball universe has some level of time-hax resistance. It can be assumed that Beerus could probably keep moving for five or ten seconds or more during stopped time. Whis of course doesn't count in this since he himself has time-hax way more formidable than Hit's.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Can you guys stop with the infinite speed thing? Hit's abilities have always have limits.

It's already been addressed that there's no such thing as briefly moving at infinite speeds. If they're briefly moving at infinite speeds, it's not infinite. That said Hit's time stop ability has always had limits, Goku moving in a more localized version of this ability not changing this, so we agreed it's some kind of time stop resistance and not a very good example of one.

Goku:It's no use. I'm currently far beyond the reach of your time-skip.

Moving in a limited time stop ability is again, not infinite speed.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Can you guys stop with the infinite speed thing? Hit's abilities have always have limits.
It's already been addressed that there's no such thing as briefly moving at infinite speeds. If they're briefly moving at infinite speeds, it's not infinite. That said Hit's time stop ability has always had limits, Goku moving in a more localized version of this ability not changing this, so we agreed it's some kind of time stop resistance and not a very good example of one.

Goku:It's no use. I'm currently far beyond the reach of your time-skip.

Moving in a limited time stop ability is again, not infinite speed.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, I'm always EXTREMELY skeptical of any "infinite speed" claims, which tend to be dubious even when they ARE stated in a series.

Anyway, this may not have been infinite speed, but it WAS a certain level of resistance to time-stop hax. Which is all I'm saying. . .that we add that to Goku's list of powers. Does this have to turn into an argument for some reason?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Yes, repetition of something that has already been debunked must be addressed.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Yes, repetition of something that has already been debunked must be addressed.

Like I said, infinite speed is a SUPER-dubious claim even when it has been stated as such in a series, which it never was in DBS. So yeah, I agree with you that there is no way whatsoever that Goku has ANYTHING akin to actually "infinite" speed. Although. . .it WOULD seem that infinite TELEPORTATION speed, rather than movement-speed, does exist in the Dragon Ball Universe, what with Goku's and even more impressively, Kibito/Kibito Kai's instant-transmission techniques, the latter of which was also copied by Kid Buu. It would seem those techniques DO allow for truly INSTANTANEOUS travel between any two points in the Universe (although for Goku's version, there needs to be a Ki Signature to lock on to, and is thus limited by the distance from which he can sense Ki).

Anyway though, no I don't think Goku moving during stopped time has anything to do with SPEED at all, really. Goku said "my power has surpassed your timeskip technique," which would indicate to me that he literally just broke through the weird dimension of stopped time that Hit creates, and did so by using the sheer levels of concentrated Ki contained within his body. Pretty damn impressive, really. Would definitely amount to SOME level of true resistance to time-hax.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Hmmm . . . I'm wondering why Goku doesn't have atleast limited precog in his page since he did manage to predicte his oppents moves

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmmm . . . I'm wondering why Goku doesn't have atleast limited precog in his page since he did manage to predicte his oppents moves

Probably because it's pure skill and not some kind of power. It's not like he can literally see the future of what his opponent's going to do, but can instead learn from their style and movements about what they're going to do.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot
Which is why i'm wondering if it could atleast count for limited precog?I mean it is a vary useful skill to use against any oppoent despite not being true precog

 

[Aparajita]

Can someone link a dubbed scene for this?

 

[RadicalMrR]

Can someone link a dubbed scene for this?

Here

 

[Goodyfresh]

Can someone link a dubbed scene for this?

Here

To be more specific, the scene where he moves during Hit's time-stop is right here at the 14:37 mark--The Exact Scene He says "The level I'm at is far beyond your Time-Leap" at 14:47 to 14:50. So, yeah. That pretty much establishes it. He can move within stopped time, for AT LEAST as long as a second or so (which with his speed is enough time to do, well, A LOT of things).

 

[Antvasima]

Goodyfresh, please calm down. You are writing in a too exaggerated manner.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

People seem to misinterpret that scene, a lot. Goku says he's far beyond Hit's time-leap likely due to the incredible boost in power and speed stacking KKx10 and SSJB has given him. Hit likely wasn't able to do enough in this stopped time before Goku reacted, or Goku simply became too strong forever. However, there are two instances later in the fight in which Hit tries Time-Leap again on KKx10 SSB Goku, and it works just fine. Hit did not get any stronger over the course of the fight, but his Time-Leap's potency increased.

So no, this does not imply Goku has infinite speed, immunity to time manipulation, or that power is always >>> hax in Dragon Ball. It simply means that, for a moment, Goku overcame Hit's current Time-Leap, though mid-battle Hit improved it, and Goku had no counter.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Hit did get stronger as the fight when on and he used a different teqnique to freeze

Hit approaches Goku and the two bump fists, then fly to opposite sides of the arena. As they prepare to recommence fighting, Hit shows off another new pose, which Beerus notes he must have invented to match his improved strength (similar to what he did last episode).

If you want the link to the herms traslation I can give it to you but all this information was in the upgrade thread I made for Hit a while back

Here

In my opinion Goku should have limited precog or atleast say something about his tecqnique in his profile aswell as limited time resistence

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

It's not precognition. He can't actually see the future, he can just use the information received from his opponent to deduce the best course of action IIRC, something a brilliant martial artist in real life can perform.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Makes sense but is it not notworthy enough to to be put under notable techniques because the difference from real life is Goku had to predict the way Hit would attack since he couldn't see through the time stop while in real life they ajust their movements based off what thir oppoent is doing.

The best analagy for this is Goku was playing chess against someone's pieces he couldn't see moving.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Yeah, he doesn't have precog.

So will limited resistance to time-hax be added to his powers (while in Kaio-Ken x 10 + SSJG, or anything surpassing that), now? The feat is clearly right there in that video, after-all.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, he doesn't have precog.
So will limited resistance to time-hax be added to his powers (while in Kaio-Ken x 10 + SSJG, or anything surpassing that), now? The feat is clearly right there in that video, after-all.

Probably not, as it's too unspecific. He became immune to Hit's Time-Leap for a single time during the battle, and completely vulnerable again once Hit improved it, slightly. I feel "Resistance to time stops that last 0.5 seconds" would be a weird and pointless thing to add, since Hit's ability is not only very specific, but also didn't even stay at that level for the rest of the battle.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe "limited resistance to very brief time-stops"? Although I agree that it does seem kind of awkward.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Just because it sounds awkward doesn't change the fact that it is still some form of hax-resistance, to time-stops of at least one second (that's the level Hit's time-leap had improved to at that point in the battle, he'd moved past the half-second limit by then). Sure it sounds awkward but it's important to take note of. Pretty much any characters with high-tier-enough powers and time-stop hax could previously have beaten Dragon Ball-verse characters (except for Whis and Vados) using hax in a Vs Battle, regardless of guys like Goku being near-universe-level. But now we see that Goku (and by extension any of the God-tiers like Beerus, but probably for even longer times in their case) can move in stopped time for at least one second. Considering that he has MFTL+ speed, reactions, etc., this gives him more than enough time to K.O any number of time-stopping opponents before they can manage to render him frozen.

That's why I feel it's important that we add this to his list of powers, even if it's going to "sound awkward." It's because this could potentially make a very significant difference in Vs-Battles of the future. But it's an obscure-enough power in Dragon Ball-verse that if we don't take note of it in Goku's ability-list now, it's liable to be forgotten in the future when the subject of Goku vs. Time-Stopping characters comes up.

Also, consider that one of the biggest issues in past Vs. Battles with Dragon Ball-verse characters, and Goku in-particular, has been their lack of hax or hax-resistance (with the exception of Regenerationn-hax and limited magic for some characters). This. . .kind of changes that. That's another reason why I think it should be noted in his powers. Should probably also be noted in Beerus' powers by extension. No need to note it in Whis' powers, though, since he's been established for some time now as having Time Manipulation. Anyway, it just seems very significant to me that Goku finally has some kind of legitimate hax-resistance.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just because it sounds awkward doesn't change the fact that it is still some form of hax-resistance, to time-stops of at least one second (that's the level Hit's time-leap had improved to at that point in the battle, he'd moved past the half-second limit by then). Sure it sounds awkward but it's important to take note of. Pretty much any characters with high-tier-enough powers and time-stop hax could previously have beaten Dragon Ball-verse characters (except for Whis and Vados) using hax in a Vs Battle, regardless of guys like Goku being near-universe-level. But now we see that Goku (and by extension any of the God-tiers like Beerus, but probably for even longer times in their case) can move in stopped time for at least one second. Considering that he has MFTL+ speed, reactions, etc., this gives him more than enough time to K.O any number of time-stopping opponents before they can manage to render him frozen.

It does not mean he can move in any stopped time for a certain period of time. It's not a Star Platinum/The World case in which one's time stop can be used to move within the other. There was a specific time (don't remember if we know exactly what it was, at that point) at which Hit's Time-Leap became totally ineffective on Goku. However, when Hit improved his Time-Stop, Goku did not keep the benefit of breaking through, or have the luxury of some period of movement. He just couldn't move, at all. He lost all resistance to the ability as soon as Hit improved it, and this was demonstrated twice. If anything, we'd need to write "Resistance to time stops lasting 0.5 seconds or less", which is incredibly specific.

 

[Talonmask]

Are there even people that stop time for that specific timeframe? I'm pretty sure most time stoppers don't have theirs limited to half a second, basically rendering the "resistance" useless.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Except once he improved his time-stop even further, didn't he freeze Goku after a certain period of time within the time-stop, after Goku had already moved for something like a half second or a second within the stopped time? Meaning Goku was still able to move for the first half-second or second or so before Hit managed to freeze him nonetheless? It almost appeared as if Hit created a second-layer of stopped-time-space within his stopped-time-space, directly around Goku's body.

There is one other possibility, namely that the time-stop is not actually a true time-stop at all, but rather a drastic slowing-down of time by some huge factor. In which case Goku's feat could just amount to one of extreme speed. But that actually doesn't seem likely given the depiction of how Hit's time-stop creates its own strange "space/dimension," and how Goku does say he broke through it with "power."

Basically the only possible explanation here is that Goku can move for the first half-second or so of stopped time, or that there are somehow "different levels" of "stopped time dimension" within the Dragon Ball-Verse.

Either way, it does seem highly likely to me that if going against, say, Jotaro Kujo (post-battle with Dio) or Dio Brando, Goku (with KKx10 + SSJGSS) could move for the first half-second or second of the stopped time they create.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

Nah.