Neron CRT

[Deagonx]

I was looking over the Neron (Pre-Flashpoint) page because it was relevant to another CRT I was participating in.

Neron (Pre-Flashpoint)

Neron is a powerful Demon King who has been making deals with various heroes and supervillains to give them something they want in exchange for their souls. He has been an enemy of The Spectre, Deadman, the Justice League, and other magical beings until he was defeated by Lord Satanus and Blaze...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I think he should be changed to 2-C, possibly 2-A as his best scaling comes from Hector Hall.

Attack Potency

These are the current justifications for his Low 1-C attack potency

1. One of Neron's manifestations can Harm The Spectre[3],

Spectre's Low 1-C key is for his unbound state, which is the first problem. Likewise, all that Neron ultimately accomplishes is pushing back Spectre (not injuring him) and then he separates Spectre from Jim Corrigan, which is impressive, but not necessarily "can destroy a Low Complex Multiverse" level.

Even if we do scale Neron to Spectre, the only Low 1-C scan on Spectre's profile is a single scaling to Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt doesn't have a profile so I am not sure what the basis was for calling this 1-C. I assume it's scaling to Mxy? This seems erroneous to me because Mxy's profile has him High 1-C in the 5th Dimension, outside it's "varies up to 2-A." Though perhaps that can be hashed out in another CRT.

2. Neron's contracts cannot be broken even by the power of the Spectre[3],

This seems to speak more to hax and rules of magic than anything else.

3. Neron can control hell's structure with ease and the totality of its reality is subject to Neron's rules,

The first scan doesn't say Neron can control hell's structure. The only thing stated about it is Neron saying "this realm is responsive to your desires" and Hell's "structure" is not mentioned at all. Perhaps the wrong scan was linked, but this scan doesn't say anything about Neron's power.

The second scan seems to be misrepresented. The description is "totality of [Hell's] reality is subject to Neron's rules" but the wording in the scan itself is far more conservative. He says "What a pity you are now in my realm, and forced to deal with a reality that operates by my rules."

I think it's kind of a huge stretch to use this statement to say he can reality warp all of Hell at will. Such an interpretation doesn't seem to be supported by what happens in the scan, since he immediately starts writhing in pain from someone's presence, and then tries to blast them with hand beams after and they still dodge it.

4. created an entire world inside Hell, where Richard Dragon could fight and was unable to die[42] and

That's just literally how Hell works. In this scan explaining how Hell works, it's more of a state of mind than a place. There's a hell for every damned soul. So the existence of a special realm where Dragon fights and dies, but comes back to life over and over, just seems like run of the mill Hell. I don't think it scales Neron to Low 1-C.

Neron even says during that sequence, when asked if the realm is real, "What is real, after all? This may be shadow play. It may be a dream."

5. possibly deformed its structure when Flash entered Hell, changing the place constantly[33])

Nothing in this scan suggests Neron is doing that, and even if he were, he may simply be doing it to the immediate surroundings of the Flash rather than the entire structure of Hell.

Durability

Neron does have a durability feat scaling to Classic Fate

Durability: Low Complex Multiverse level (Took no damage from the Hector Hall[43],

However, Hector Hall's current rating is 2-C, possibly 2-A

Overall, I think this might just be a case of outdated scaling.

 

[Confluctor]

This seems erroneous to me because Mxy's profile has him High 1-C in the 5th Dimension, outside it's "varies up to 2-A." Though perhaps that can be hashed out in another CRT.

Varies up to at least 4-B physically and up to High 1-C with powers in the lower worlds, High 1-C in the Fifth Dimension

? His high 1C stuff aren't scalable to anyone but him and Batmite.

 

[Deagonx]

? His high 1C stuff aren't scalable to anyone but him and Batmite.

Yeah, I am trying to figure out why Spectre's feat against Thunderbolt is listed as 1-C. As far as I can tell that is the only 1-C feat in his profile. I just assumed it was because Thunderbolt was an Imp.

Low Complex Multiverse level (Forcefully banished Thunderbolt, a 5th Dimensional Imp, after showing that Thunderbolt's power could not affect him for more than a moment)

Low Complex Multiverse level (No-sold a blast from Thunderbolt, a 5th Dimensional Imp, that was intended to banish Spectre to the 5th Dimension, implying the Spectre was beyond his power to affect)

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, I am trying to figure out why Spectre's feat against Thunderbolt is listed as 1-C. As far as I can tell that is the only 1-C feat in his profile. I just assumed it was because Thunderbolt was an Imp.

Low Complex Multiverse level (Forcefully banished Thunderbolt, a 5th Dimensional Imp, after showing that Thunderbolt's power could not affect him for more than a moment)

Low Complex Multiverse level (No-sold a blast from Thunderbolt, a 5th Dimensional Imp, that was intended to banish Spectre to the 5th Dimension, implying the Spectre was beyond his power to affect)

Yes, that’s a remnant from when Mxyzptlk was still Low 1-C. I believe that Low 1-C stat was applied back in 2020.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, that’s a remnant from when Mxyzptlk was still Low 1-C. I believe that Low 1-C stat was applied back in 2020.

Yeah, so overall it seems the main evidence comes from Spectre scaling, but the feat itself is very iffy and I just posted a CRT showing why Spectre doesn't actually scale to Imps. Plus, that key is only for Unbound Spectre, which doesn't apply here, as Spectre was still with Jim Corrigan.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with this.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The Feat of the Spectre and Hector was more support.

3. Neron can control hell's structure with ease and the totality of its reality is subject to Neron's rules

The first scan doesn't say Neron can control hell's structure. The only thing stated about it is Neron saying "



I think it's kind of a huge stretch to use this statement to say he can reality warp all of Hell at will. Such an interpretation doesn't seem to be supported by what happens in the scan, since he immediately starts writhing in pain from someone's presence, and then tries to blast them with hand beams after and they still dodge it.

He was affected by an external and unknown force, the fastest way to stop any problem he had was to one-shot a group of amazons(he killed several but not all), it is because of his own morale.

in the same comic, before, he was able to warp hell from afar

4. created an entire world inside Hell, where Richard Dragon could fight and was unable to die[42] and

you ignore the fact that he said, "A world that I created from your imagination"

He created a "heaven" for Superman too, countless times.

https://imgur.io/a/VcO0O7v

 

[Deagonx]

in the same comic, before, he was able to warp hell from afar

Without context to describe how much of Hell he's warping, this is relevant.

If someone warped a galaxy, that would be an appreciable portion of the Universe, yet they wouldn't be universal, they'd be galaxy level.

Oddly, if someone affects literally any of Hell, it's Low 1-C. Just doesn't track for me.

you ignore the fact that he said, "A world that I created from your imagination"

He created a "heaven" for Superman too, countless times.

Likewise, without context for the size of this realm, or if it's real or not, etc, this can't be tiered as 1-C. I'm not sure why we'd scale this to all of Hell

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

well, and what level does you propose, 2-C/2-A?

 

[Deagonx]

well, and what level does you propose, 2-C/2-A?

Yes. He scales to Doctor Fate. Not to Unbound Spectre or Hell itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx and Confluctor seem to make good points above.

@Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Alonik @The_Impress

What do you think about this?

 

[Confluctor]

I don't think I have said anything about the CRT, just pointing out that the lower keys only apply to Mxy and that it's not 2A but just 4-B.

Anyway, moving forward, please don't involve me in these two verses when it comes to revisions, especially related to tiers. I literally hate everything about tiers. Unless it specifically deals with pages I have created or revisions I have done, I probably won't reply. It's really not worth the headache and would rather focus on verses I actually enjoy. I am still going to make some pages but that's different

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate, but I understand if you have lost interest in Marvel and DC Comics due to their recent lacklustre and heavily onesided diehard political output. Lots of the old stuff is still good though. I will remove you from that notifications list then.

 

[LuciferDC099]

I agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems to make sense to me as well.

 

[Planck69]

Deagonx makes sense to me..

Also Ant, you're better off asking for response to other verses so I'd ask that you please limit the number of pings to these threads. I'll try to maintain a bit more presence here from now but DC is just tiring. Hope you understand.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

well shouldn't it be Neron 2-B, possibly 2-A?

He trapped Superman in a endless of "heavens" created by Neron within a dead hell, basically making him control a part of hell so that it wouldn't torture Superman and he would have a happy life, with his living family and Krypton still exist, but when superman refused all Worlds that Neron Created, Neron recreated an entire void where universes are born and die, where he was going to let Clark die (he won and escaped for convenience of the plot)

https://imgur.io/a/VcO0O7v

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

Doctor Fate scaling seems alright. The stuff with 1-C is either outdated scaling or cosmology based that's not properly explained.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx makes sense to me..

Thank you for the reply.

Also Ant, you're better off asking for response to other verses so I'd ask that you please limit the number of pings to these threads. I'll try to maintain a bit more presence here from now but DC is just tiring. Hope you understand.

No problem. I understand the feeling, and have removed you from my notifications list. I still like the older output though. What is currently produced is admittedly largely awful in one way or another.

 

[Antvasima]

Doctor Fate scaling seems alright. The stuff with 1-C is either outdated scaling or cosmology based that's not properly explained.

Thank you for the help. That is probably fine then.

 

[Antvasima]

well shouldn't it be Neron 2-B, possibly 2-A?

He trapped Superman in a endless of "heavens" created by Neron within a dead hell, basically making him control a part of hell so that it wouldn't torture Superman and he would have a happy life, with his living family and Krypton still exist, but when superman refused all Worlds that Neron Created, Neron recreated an entire void where universes are born and die, where he was going to let Clark die (he won and escaped for convenience of the plot)

https://imgur.io/a/VcO0O7v

That seems like a reasonable tier if that is an accurate description.

 

[Deagonx]

well shouldn't it be Neron 2-B, possibly 2-A?

He trapped Superman in a endless of "heavens" created by Neron within a dead hell, basically making him control a part of hell so that it wouldn't torture Superman and he would have a happy life, with his living family and Krypton still exist, but when superman refused all Worlds that Neron Created, Neron recreated an entire void where universes are born and die, where he was going to let Clark die (he won and escaped for convenience of the plot)

Having read through that issue, I think this is largely identical to what he did to Richard Dragon.

Neron subjecting people to Hell is largely an illusionist quality. Hell is a state of mind, and what he's putting Superman through isn't best interpreted as the literal creation of universes, demonstrating a 2-B level of power. The comic spells this out for us.

"Your unconscious mind had to draw the image of her -- into your holographic dream."

"I saw Earth and Krpyton, friends and family, spewing forth from my own consciousness."

"Realizing that everything around me was being formed by my own mind. I fI could just control my thoughts, I'd have a chance."

To me, I think the simplest interpretation is that Neron has some level of influence over the fundamental experience that residents of hell are subjected to, but I would be wary of interpreting this as the literal creation of realms and heavens and hells.

I think his scaling to Doctor Fate is the best we have for now.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So will you just ignore that Neron says that I(he) has created all that, through the mind of Superman/Richard simply because hell is a state of mind? That is like saying that all the Chaos worlds within the Warp do not exist because they are simply the extension of the mind of the Demon Princes that reside in the part of the Warp that is formed by human thoughts.

Neron himself says so people are the ones who create their own hell automatically, he had to readjust it "Manually" to show Superman a heaven.

Neron himself became a construct of the collective consciousness of the people and he is real, unless you want to say that he is not real

we know that DC works through a system of imagination/Dream and belief

 

[Kuuzo7]

Read the comics a long time ago.
These projections of Superman's mind were indeed universes, since DC derived their inspiration from the following principle of quantum mind/conciousness, according to which each subjective experience of an individual has a causal effect on reality. Of course, DC has adapted this concept to fit its cosmology.

As reality is subject to the consciousness/mind/perception of an invidual, each individual lives in a personal universe which, however, intersects with other personal universes. Thus, each individual is able to experience simultaneously a common reality, and allow one personal universe to be equally true as the next one.

However, DeMatteis went a step further and added that there is no such thing as subjective or objective reality, but only "omnijective reality". The way reality is perceived, whether as a dream, an illusion or universe, depends only on the individual without contradicting the other states of reality which are also true.

How reality is described as a dream, an illusion or a universe does not matter much in such a cosmology, considering all equally true. All the more so when there are instances where the DC Creation is described as a dream, to cite just one example. But I wouldn't use this mechanics(?) for scaling/tiering purposes, because that would mean scaling any DC human up to a ridiculous level, though they do have legit powers but not individually, e.g A Dream of a Thousand Cats.

 

[Swerzye29038]

I agree with Deagonx here

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with Kuuzo.

I understand and respect the perspective that Neron was able to manipulate the hell "universe" that Superman was experiencing but it doesn't seem like it scales to combat ability and it's not clear how large these realms are.

 

[Kuuzo7]

I agree with Kuuzo.

I understand and respect the perspective that Neron was able to manipulate the hell "universe" that Superman was experiencing but it doesn't seem like it scales to combat ability and it's not clear how large these realms are.

I agree with you as well.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Deagonx]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

It's agreed that he definitely doesn't scale to Unbound Spectre (who shouldn't have scaled to Mxy anyways) and that he doesn't scale to all of hell.

He definitely scales to Dr Fate. There is an argument being made that the Superman feat is 2B. Me and Kuuzo disagree

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

There is an argument being made that the Superman feat is 2B

since when? superman winning and escaping is basically PIS

 

[Deagonx]

since when? superman winning and escaping is basically PIS

Okay, I didn't mean to misrepresent your argument. I was trying to explain to Ant what the current discussion is.

What I meant to say was "Someone (you) is currently advocating that the feat of putting Superman through these various hells/heavens is a 2-B feat."

If that isn't the best way to describe what you are saying, please correct me.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Yeah, sounds better

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so should we primarily scale Neron to Doctor Fate, and also add a "possibly created several universes as prisons for Superman, but they might just have been mental creations" as a backup justification?

 

[Deagonx]

Okay, so should we primarily scale Neron to Doctor Fate

Yeah that seems to be his highest scaling on his current profile.

and also add a "possibly created several universes as prisons for Superman, but they might just have been mental creations" as a backup justification?

I am tempted to say yes just to have this done with, but Oliver is arguing for 2-B which is "1001 to any higher finite amount of infinitely sized universes."

However nothing from the Richard Dragon or Superman scans give a number like that, so Oliver would need to agree that we are going to keep it at 2-C regardless.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

i guess that's ok

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. I can make the changes. This is simpler since it doesn't involve adding a new key.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the page for you.

Tell me here when you are done please.

 

[Deagonx]

Finished.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you, but he seems to be scaled from the Jim Corrigan Spectre, who is currently rated as 2-A.