Nee-Chan Chuunibyou revisions

[YungManzi]

The record is the universe by your own scans, and warping reality isn’t 4-D unless you outright warp time.

Even then you haven’t even disproven the lack of direct connection to Chunnibyo besides a shared multiverse.
No direct mention was made so granting him this much of a buff is ridiculous.

The connection is the shared multiverse. Which is accepted.

So ID Cosmology = Neechan Cosmology.

 

[00potato]

The connection is the shared multiverse. Which is accepted.

So ID Cosmology = Neechan Cosmology.

Yeah but they are still different stories, and the statement doesn’t even directly reference anything from Chunibyo. A shared setting isn’t enough for a statement not directly mentioning or hinting at it.
Giving a large upgrade for such a vauge statement in an entirely different universe, is asinine.

 

[YungManzi]

"Giving a large upgrade for such a vauge statement in an entirely different universe, is asinine."

There are parts of ID that take place in the same universe as Chunibyou though.

Edit:

In fact; Yogiri's original universe is Yuichi's universe.

 

[00potato]

So?

Most of ID is still in a separate universe.

So it matters not.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Stop stonewalling. Both series have the same cosmology since its the same verse. Every universe is in a heavenly record, including Yuichi's. To say that he is not living under one is to blatantly ignore the literal cosmology of the verse + you'd need to prove that being the case since its assuming Nee-Chan's universe is outside the Sea and not following the same cosmology that appears in ID despite both being...the same verse, with Yogiri literally coming from the same universe as Yuichi's. There is only one Multiversal Sea my dude.

 

[YungManzi]

So what exactly are you saying here, if you're not arguing against them being a shared multiverse and thereby having a shared cosmology?

 

[00potato]

Stonewalling? Yeah ok, if you think that’s what it means.

Yeah but nothing in that sentence even references the ideas in Chunibyo, I don’t care if they are in the same multiverse, you can’t just apply big changes like this from indirect statements in other universes.

The fact that a shared multiverse exists doesn’t change my arguments, it’s irrelevant bollocks. Chunibyo and it’s terminology aren’t even hinted at in the paragraphs, so assuming it applies to how it’s abilities work it asinine.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yuichi's plothax can change the world as a worldviewer, which would give him 4-D hax by proxy according to how the cosmology works (since his world would be a heavenly record)

 

[00potato]

Now your just ignoring me to repeat the claims I already debunked?

I am not repeating myself for you.

 

[YungManzi]

Yeah, and Yuichi would be the primary observer right?

So, there you go.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Its more like, you ignoring the cosmology

 

[00potato]

Its more like, you ignoring the cosmology

Are you just ignoring what I said about that again? I already explained how it fits into the Heavenly Records/universe bit.
They are the universe, just because your hax effects the universe, doesn’t mean it effects space-time itself.

Yeah, and Yuichi would be the primary observer right?

So, there you go.

Not really? This statement from a different book, not directly hinting as Chunibyo isn’t applying to him because you assume and assert it does. Again because of the lack of direct evidence for that. No matter how many times you assert it, it doesn’t become true.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Eh? The heavenly records are space-time continuums though

 

[00potato]

“The world itself.”
Kinda shows that they can be used interchangeably.
Warping the world on a 3-D level would still be “warping the record.” because they are established as interchangeable.

So even if you could prove it applies to Chunibyo (it doesn’t.) it wouldn’t be 4-D and Conceptual.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So what does the word "World" have to do with this exactly? They are still space-time continuums

 

[00potato]

So what does the word "World" have to do with this exactly? They are still space-time continuums

All universes are, by that doesn’t mean warping he universe requires 4-D effects unless you are proved to be doing it directly to space time.

I proved it can be used interchangeably with the universe from your own quote and explained why warping the universe isn’t inherently 4-D, do I need to explain myself for the umpteenth time?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So why being used interchangebly matters here?

 

[00potato]

Because universe warping isn’t inherently 4-D

and when Record and Universe are used interchangeably, it just counts as plain universe warping without proof of space time warping.

So even if this applied to Yuichi (still not enough proof.) it ain’t 4-D/conceptual. So nope, not a good upgrade.

 

[YungManzi]

"In other words, the celestial sphere is the foundation of the world as perceived by the primary observer of that world."

"Yuichi fights against those who attempt to upend the world order and rework it to be centered around gods and mythical creatures, as such his world view encompasses the entirety of humanity. Even Ryoma who was protagonist, and could enter any worldview and become the protagonist of that worldview and as such the plot would always favor him, leading him to gain convenient power ups or his opponents committing CIS, was easily defeated by Yuichi due to Yuichi's role in his story being greater than Ryoma's."

 

[00potato]

Considering the fact that it uses words line “CIS.” It is obvious that it comes from a secondary explanation rather then the main story. Not a good source of argumentation.

Also none of that helps your point, it just shows that Yuichi’s hax scales slightly above other haxes. Nothing directly connecting your secondary summary to this seperate quote in a different book.

 

[YungManzi]

Outers are also referred to as observers at some point, and as far as I know they're basically just worldview holders that are more self-aware.

 

[YungManzi]

"Also none of that helps your point, it just shows that Yuichi’s hax scales slightly above other haxes. Nothing directly connecting your secondary summary to this seperate quote in a different book."

No, it was to show that Yuichi himself is the primary observer, as his worldview encompasses all of humanity, even including the protagonist.

 

[00potato]

Evidence?

Where are Worldview Holders equates to Outers?

Or anyone observing Records equated to Wordview holders?

"Also none of that helps your point, it just shows that Yuichi’s hax scales slightly above other haxes. Nothing directly connecting your secondary summary to this seperate quote in a different book."

No, it was to show that Yuichi himself is the primary observer, as his worldview encompasses all of humanity, even including the protagonist.

Still not connected for reasons I already shown, the thing is, you can’t use secondary summaries to prove your point, especially when it only suggest his worldview is stronger then some others, rather then being the “primary observer.” Mentioned in this other book.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Tomomi explaining how Worldview Holder changes the laws of world + how they can be conflicted with another worldview holder

"This is all just what I was told, so I don’t know all the details, but the point is, every person has their own world,” Tomomi said. “And while every person has their own world, the broad outlines are predetermined, and there are central figures who are like the personification of a given worldview. Those people are called Worldview Holders.”
“And they decide the rules of the world?” Yuichi asked. It all sounded pretty absurd to Yuichi. People like that would basically be called gods.
“They aren’t necessarily doing it consciously,” Tomomi said. “But the worldviews of the people around the Holder are strongly influenced by the Holder’s own. As a result, the world around a Holder will cohere into one the Holder recognizes. Of course, there are a lot of Holders out there, which means you sometimes wind up with conflicting worldviews coming into contact. When that happens, it’s called a World Conflict, and the weaker world is integrated into the stronger one.”

Yuichi's ability to always win + explanation of how there can be more than one protagonist in the same universe

"The worldview of a Worldview Holder was greatly influenced by that person’s thoughts and wishes. This was probably why Mutsuko’s worldview was “An Unforgiving World That Rewards Only Effort.”
“I can’t accept it!” Ende burst out. “‘Natural talent’ beat the ‘Protagonist’ of a story? It defeated an evil god who’s been around since the dawn of civilization?!”
“Actually, you can use Soul Reader, right?” Mutsuko said. “What did it say when you looked at Yu?”
“It just said ‘Yu’! It didn’t mean anything!”
“That’s how you see him when I’m the central figure, right? What about from other points of view?”
Ende activated Soul Reader and looked at Yuichi, who was walking ahead of them. Unlike Yuichi’s Soul Reader, Ende’s was complete. She could turn it on and off freely, and see more detailed information.
The words over Yuichi’s head now said: “The Last One Standing: Humanity’s Line of Defense. Guardian of the human-centric world we currently live in. He fights against those who attempt to upend the world order and rework it to be centered around gods and mythical creatures.”
“That’s way too big! What the heck?!” Ende exclaimed.
“Gods, yokai, monsters, fantasy world people... those are all impossible daydreams created by the imaginations of totally ordinary humans,” Mutsuko said. “They wouldn’t exist if there were no humans around. In their own mythologies, they existed before humans did... but could they continue to exist if humans went away? Are they really that stable?”
“So Yuichi has the power to deny their existence?” Ende asked.
“It’s not anything quite that grand, I don’t think. Say there’s a world where people can use magic, and one where people can’t. What happens if the two bump into each other?”
“You end up with a world conflict. The two fuse, with the weaker world absorbed by the stronger. In most cases, the more special world is more powerful. So if that happened, the magic world would overwrite the normal one.”
“Yeah. It might seem that way at a glance, and Yu doesn’t deny the existence of gods, yokai, or magic either. But it’s not all as one-way as you’d think. Fusion means the two worlds mix together to create a new world. And Yu doesn’t think for a second that there could ever be an enemy he can’t beat.”
“You mean... Yuichi Sakaki has created a world where he’s invincible?”
“Not quite that far,” Mutsuko said. “But he can make sure there’s always a chance that he can win. And if there’s a chance that he can win, he will win!” Mutsuko’s confidence seemed to be eternal and absolute."

And then in ID, Aoi refers to the same kind of people, that being the protagonists that are living under hers/the same world + how they can conflict with each other

"Well, just speaking of a meta-story, makes it a meta-story" (Aoi)

Or rather, if this world was like a movie, then you could say that I can peek at the script" (Aoi)

“But still, its not that simple. I guess I should say there are several protagonists, and chaotic matters like various scenarios that are moving simultaneously. And the different scenarios can change aspects in complex manners depending on the situation.” (Aoi)

So then this quote here:

"In other words, the heavenly record is the foundation of the world as perceived by the primary observer of that world."

It would apply to Yuichi as well, since he is both a protagonist and primary observer, qualifying for the terms both books uses.

 

[00potato]

I will come back to explain why this doesn’t exactly prove your point later today.

 

[Zaratthustra]

A Heavenly Record is already accepted as being a full-blown time-space being and affecting it would be 4-D. Simple as that. I don't see what this game of mouse and cat around when that's simple logic. To disagree with it, one would have to disagree with the Heavenly Record being a time-space being.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I like how much emphasis you like to put on the fact that it’s a different book like it wasn’t written by the same guy with the intention of having them in the same verse.

 

[00potato]

snip

snip again.

Let’s look at this quote by quote.

Quote one, This proves that they warp reality and the mechanics therefrom, already accepted, not sure why this is here.

Quote two establishes that stronger worlds trump weaker worlds and suggests that Yuichi’s world is extremely powerful, but nothing here even suggests that he is the primary observer mentioned later. In fact it doesn’t even call him a protagonist. That is the main issue, no evidence of him fitting that description shown at the end.

Quote three ya homie Aoi: all this establishes is that multiple protags Allan exist, not sure how this helps since it doesn’t effect the power of any of them.

Last quote: the issue is that you haven’t proven him as the primary observer, just that his worldview trumps many others, not that it is the strongest or that it scales to the ID quote. In fact if multiple can exist it reduces the chance of him being the primary observer, since many other would in theory exist.

now for the two others,

A Heavenly Record is already accepted as being a full-blown time-space being and affecting it would be 4-D. Simple as that. I don't see what this game of mouse and cat around when that's simple logic. To disagree with it, one would have to disagree with the Heavenly Record being a time-space being.

The heavenly record is the word itself, it goes up to 4-D, just like any other universe where time exists. The issue is that warping it doesn’t necessarily involve anything 4-D unless proven as such, this is no different.

This isn’t cat and mouse, this is basic logic y’all can’t give me a direct answer to because there is no direct answer in the stories, just fan theories like this.

I like how much emphasis you like to put on the fact that it’s a different book like it wasn’t written by the same guy with the intention of having them in the same verse.

I mean they don’t take place in the same universe for most of the book, it isn’t like everything they wrote was planned to play of if Yuichi’s story, most of the book is its own thing. since no direct mention of the terminology or setting exists in your ID based evidence, there is no reason to assume they hinting at Chunibyo.

 

[PhantomØ4]

You’re mistaken, Yuichi is not a protagonist, he is quite beyond that. A protagonist holds no power in Yuichi’s worldview, Ryoma is a protagonist of the story but Yuichi is the central figure of the world as a whole.

The rest just baffles me how you’re denying the fact that Instant Death and Chuniibyou share a common verse and therefore cosmological expansions affect both verses. Not directly mentioning Yuichi does not mean that the universe in Chuniibyou is not also a heavenly record.

Heavenly Records are the conceptual vessels of the world, they contain all of the information of the world. They’re not space-time itself they just contain it.

 

[00potato]

Congrats you strawmanned everything I said, want a medal?
Nothing you say means anything against my points.

Yuichi negating other worldview holders/protagonists doesn’t make him the primary observer, just makes him more “special.” as mentioned before.
He is never called he primary observer.

I never said they don’t share a cosmology, but they are still different stories and since nothing mentioned in your ID scans show up in any of your Chunibyo scans, assuming the primary observer is Yuichi is asinine due to lack of evidence.

Your own scans contradict that last point, they are called “the world itself.” Showing that they can be used interchangeably. So warping the universe/Heavenly Record isn’t inherently 4-D.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Amazing sarcasm, I’m just gonna ignore it.

I don’t even know why I went with your interpretation of what a main observer is anyways, because I’m pretty sure it goes more along the lines of an observer in general like when rendering a game or when a primary observer is required for some quantum mechanics to work because there is literally no one singular character that remotely fulfills the role as someone who just builds the world by observing, not creator gods not anyone. Basically observer is a sentience and information is drawn from the Heavenly Record to build the world around then, but this information is altered by worldview holders like adding things that shouldn’t exist such as vampires.

Just moments before it says it’s the world itself it quite literally says it is the conceptual vessel, a thing can’t really be a vessel for itself. You could easily say that the thing that holds all the information of something is that thing but on a more fundamental level.

 

[00potato]

Scans for any of that in paragraph one?
The one you already shown suggests it’s only for the primary observer (a specific one.), not all of them in general, so everything you say about observers in general is irrelevant (in fact it kinda suggests that the others don’t get anything from the Heavenly Record.) I mean why is this referring to quantum mechanics?

Also your second paragraph literally helps my point, you could say that it is that thing. That supports my point about them being used interchangeably. Hell, since it, by your admission, stores all the information, even changes in the 3-D world would likely effect it.
So again not good reasoning.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I said similarly to quantum mechanics, not actual quantum mechanics I literally also compared it to rendering a video game, it was an analogy. There is no implication, it can literally be understood as a singular being always or with any one being at any moment, there is no connotation that proves on over the other except the fact that there is literally no character that serves a specific function of being the observer of the world and constructing it by observing it, not even creator gods as I said.

it really doesn’t, being that thing on a fundamental level is not the same thing. There is literally someone in instant death who has a sword that manipulates the heavenly records and it cannot preform certain direct actions on Yogiri and company because they’re not in the Heavenly Record yet they’re clearly in the Universe. In what world does containing all the concepts of something reduce it to 3D?

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, this can't be any more blatant than it is. Same verse = same multiverse = same cosmology. Agreed with this.

 

[00potato]

I said similarly to quantum mechanics, not actual quantum mechanics I literally also compared it to rendering a video game, it was an analogy. There is no implication, it can literally be understood as a singular being always or with any one being at any moment, there is no connotation that proves on over the other except the fact that there is literally no character that serves a specific function of being the observer of the world and constructing it by observing it, not even creator gods as I said.

it really doesn’t, being that thing on a fundamental level is not the same thing. There is literally someone in instant death who has a sword that manipulates the heavenly records and it cannot preform certain direct actions on Yogiri and company because they’re not in the Heavenly Record yet they’re clearly in the Universe. In what world does containing all the concepts of something reduce it to 3D?

Yeah but why does quantum mechanics matter here?

Where did you get “could be any one being from.” In theory it could be true but thee is no evidence of that.
The wording is “primary observer.” As in one observer, as opposed to other secondary observers. That claim has no basis and is contradicted by your scans. You say it doesn’t exist but your scans point to one, so again contradicted.

Yeah so? Irrelevant, the record is still based in all the universe. They are technically different but still clearly can be used interchangeably, why else would it be called the world itself. Even if not, you would still be wrong.
Manipulating the universe on any level would still be manipulating the Heavenly Record as it is based in the universes data.

Yeah, this can't be any more blatant than it is. Same verse = same multiverse = same cosmology. Agreed with this.

Same cosmology is irrelevant when the concepts aren’t even applicable to one universe.
“Primary observer.” Has no reason to apply to anyone in Chunibyo.
Also it doesn’t even have enough reason to actually be 4-D.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Man, forget about quantum mechanics. World is rendered like a game when there is an observer.

At any given moment there can be a main observer of the world. It’s not like characters stop existing when the main observer is not there to construct the world off the heavenly records. You like going off the wording much but “The main observer” alone does not limit it to one person by mere wording.

“The

3. used to make a generalized reference to something rather than identifying a particular instance.

• used with a singular noun to indicate that it represents a whole species or class.”

Huh, it’s backwards. The universe is based on the concepts of the heavenly records, what gave you that idea?

Do you have any examples of the heavenly record changing because the universe changed? I would like to see it because last time I read it that never happened.

 

[00potato]

Concession accepted, at least on the quantum point.
It does limit it to one person at a time, and there is not enough evidence that Yuichi is that person.


Ok, so if Record contains all the info, logically at change in that info would change the record. Basic logic tells me that and your previous statements. Also it’s called the Record, records imply an archiving of something else rather then the other way around.
Anyway, if the only way things could effect the universe is by changing the heavenly record than literally everything is 4-D, since people are in the record (mentioned in the scans above.)
Then all movement, actions, hell anything is 4-D as it directly changes the record since the record is what decides how the universe is.

Can you see the problem.

 

[Muhsula]

I think you misunderstand something here, heavenly records or in official translation called celestial foundation contain all numerous things that making up the world as whole, not just info. here's the official translation from j-novel :

To talk about such a thing, an explanation of Celestial Foundations is necessary.
In simple terms, a Celestial Foundation is the vessel for a world, and could be considered the world in and of itself. On top of these foundation are placed the numerous things making up that world, and that is where intelligent life forms live. This is of course on a conceptual level.

Sorry, can't post picture somehow. have to type it. anyway, that's basically the general description of heavenly records or celestial foundations.

P.S : well, can't help if you misunderstand since sadhovy sometimes have wrong translations. And even he admited it.

 

[Gemstic]

To talk about such a thing, an explanation of Celestial Foundations is necessary.
In simple terms, a Celestial Foundation is the vessel for a world, and could be considered the world in and of itself. On top of these foundation are placed the numerous things making up that world, and that is where intelligent life forms live. This is of course on a conceptual level.

To put it another way, a Heavenly Record/Celestial Foundation is a 'conceptual supercomputer' that simulates the existence called a world/universe (with multiple timelines) within itself. This is why it could be considered the world in and of itself, even though it is the simulated reality where all 3D beings actually live.

Now coming to the issue at hand, as changes could be made to the heavenly records by the worldview holders, it is clear that they have administrative rights to this 'conceptual supercomputer' which has all the settings and programs to affect the world/universe simulated by it. And so, if an ability allows someone to affect the very thing that is the source of every concept that constitutes reality, including space and time, it would obviously be 4-Dimensional in nature (in this case).

Therefore, all of Yuichi's abilities that allow him to perform such an action (that is, affecting the heavenly record, aka 'conceptual supercomputer') would be 4D without any doubt.

 

[00potato]

Ok, I am mostly done my work for the day so I can try to translate this into a real language and debunk it being 4-D/Immeasurable.
Even getting over the lack of direct image (I can’t post either so I will let it slide for now, since I could at least check J-novel.)

1 Your scan gives more credence to my claim that they can be used interchangeably, since it agin is called the world itself, and all that shows is that the world is on top of the record, not anything I was actively debunking or anything.
I actually agree with what most of Muhsala is saying here, the issue is whether this scales to Shuichi. So now we get to Gemstic.

Your first paragraph is practically a concession as you admit that it could be considered the world itself, so they can be used interchangeably.

Paragraph two is nothing already debunked and the only new things here aren’t even sourced.
The thing is the scans shown already say “primary observer.” Not worldview holders in general. So a single one as opposed to numerous ones. So all of that is bunk already. Especially since the “administrative rights thing.” Like everything else here, is unsourced.

Third paragraph, I mean plenty of doubt exists, so that’s blatant lie. It is ridiculous to keep on with this wacky scaling, you barely sourced half of it, the sources shown contradict it or are irrelevant, and the main claim lacks solid evidence. Your honor, for now I rest my case.