Naruto vs JJK - Sasuke vs Toji

[Arkenis]

You missed the point of my post as I explicitly mentioned Toji being faster wasn't necessarily the case. I was comparing how both forms of sensing dealt with speed gaps shown in their own verse.

This has no bearing on the speed gap I am discussing.

Once again, this is completely irrelevant to my post. I'm talking about the quality of each shown in their respective verses, not cross scaling quantities between them.

As I brought up already, they will be engaging in close combat as they normally do, so Toji's quality isn't gonna be very useful here. With Maki's example she's doing it all from Naoya being far away and tryna slam into her, so the predictions are gonna come off as good but they aren't really compared to Sasuke whose precog keeps up with opponents continuously pressing him at close range.

No way y'all are saying that a 12 year old has better combat skill than the best hand-to-hand fighter of his time.

This ignores the context of Naruto and how much these 12yr olds are trained in h2h. Toji's h2h isn't really shown though, he uses weapons mostly. If there's some crazy scaling for Toji's h2h that's far above Sasuke's then bring it up.

Honestly starting to lean towords incon aswell, neither of them have very clear wincons

I can see Sasuke wearing Toji down here till he bleeds out or succumbs to any fatal wound.

 

[Arkenis]

This is kinda what I'm talking about, Toji just two or three meters away was unable to react to Red and even requires him needing to time his defense against it to not get hit. It should be very easy to see Toji's getting hit by a chidori and having trouble keeping up with body flicker as well.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Also Toji's acrobatic feats are not anime only.

Here he escapes the gravity of blue mid motion to escape several meters away.

Here he blatantly bounces around the courtyard at high speeds before coming at Gojo.

Here is blatantly running through the trees and around the periphery of the establishment so fast that gojo can't keep up, despite Blue's immense vision.

 

[Giannysmag]

I can see Sasuke wearing Toji down here till he bleeds out or succumbs to any fatal wound.

Toji has Low-Mid regen so overtime damage isnt gonna matter much

This is kinda what I'm talking about, Toji just two or three meters away was unable to react to Red and even requires him needing to time his defense against it to not get hit. It should be very easy to see Toji's getting hit by a chidori and having trouble keeping up with body flicker as well.

It's a red from Awakened Gojo an attack we haven't seen anyone in the series dodge, so not really an antifeat. Also lets be real here Sasauke is gonna be more than just 2 or 3 meters away when charging Chidori

 

[Dr._whiteee]

As I brought up already, they will be engaging in close combat as they normally do, so Toji's quality isn't gonna be very useful here. With Maki's example she's doing it all from Naoya being far away and tryna slam into her, so the predictions are gonna come off as good but they aren't really compared to Sasuke whose precog keeps up with opponents continuously pressing him at close range.

No? Why would the quality of his interpretation of information around him decrease with proximity? That's like saying you can better detect a fire via heat from further away, or hear a person talk better from 50m compared to 5m.

This ignores the context of Naruto and how much these 12yr olds are trained in h2h. Toji's h2h isn't really shown though, he uses weapons mostly. If there's some crazy scaling for Toji's h2h that's far above Sasuke's then bring it up.

toji easily scales to the like of Yuji/Maki who have a solid amount of skill feats.

This is kinda what I'm talking about, Toji just two or three meters away was unable to react to Red and even requires him needing to time his defense against it to not get hit. It should be very easy to see Toji's getting hit by a chidori and having trouble keeping up with body flicker as well.

Toji had no clue that Gojo could use red and after sensing the core of CE, Gojo became many times faster to the point where he was casually dodging Toji the same way Maki was dodging Naoya. Furthermore, Red isn't an energy beam that projects outwards. It's the expansion of space from the point of red at gojo's fingers. So unless kid sasuke has dodged space expansion, this isn't really a valid example to use to try and throw shade on Toji's CqC reactions.

 

[Arkenis]

Toji has Low-Mid regen so overtime damage isnt gonna matter much

It takes minutes. Sasuke isn't gonna stop attacking so his regen won't matter.

It's a red from Awakened Gojo an attack we haven't seen anyone in the series dodge, so not really an antifeat. Also lets be real here Sasauke is gonna be more than just 2 or 3 meters away when charging Chidori

what five meters? It don't take long and it doesn't gotta be far away.

No? Why would the quality of his interpretation of information around him decrease with proximity? That's like saying you can better detect a fire via heat from further away, or hear a person talk better from 50m compared to 5m.

I didn't say decrease. I'm responding to you bringing up how he can sense from hundreds of meters, it won't matter since they engage in close combat.

toji easily scales to the like of Yuji/Maki who have a solid amount of skill feats.

None of them are on par with Sasuke. Sadly Sasuke's intelligence section seems to have been messed with but Sasuke is far more skilled than Maki or Yuji, two who mainly just rush and engage in regular martial arts without much skill or complexity.

Toji had no clue that Gojo could use red and after sensing the core of CE, Gojo became many times faster to the point where he was casually dodging Toji the same way Maki was dodging Naoya. Furthermore, Red isn't an energy beam that projects outwards. It's the expansion of space from the point of red at gojo's fingers. So unless kid sasuke has dodged space expansion, this isn't really a valid example to use to try and throw shade on Toji's CqC reactions.

I don't see why it being space expansion matters, Toji with his Ap and senses still couldn't dodge it and as I brought up

requires him needing to time his defense against it

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I didn't say decrease. I'm responding to you bringing up how he can sense from hundreds of meters, it won't matter since they engage in close combat.

The range was brought up in reference to comparing their analytical prediction and which one is better. That will obviously have ramifications for CqC.

None of them are on par with Sasuke.

You wanna show me some feats? Cause this is just a statement.

Sadly Sasuke's intelligence section seems to have been messed with but Sasuke is far more skilled than Maki or Yuji, two who mainly just rush and engage in regular martial arts without much skill or complexity.

Feats? Also, neither Yuji or Maki are "brawlers" in any sense of the word, I also don't know what you mean by "normal martial arts without much skills or complexity" when Maki knows several Chinese martial arts which cover weapons and Hand 2 hand training and skillfully dismantled a small squadron of people. While the numbers weren't exactly the same, this is a feat more on par with hebi sasuke taking care of sound ninja fodder easily, a version of Sasuke far more skilled than his 12 year old self.

I don't see why it being space expansion matters, Toji with his Ap and senses still couldn't dodge it and as I brought up

Because how would you measure the speed of space expanding across a meter to determine how "slow" Toji was in that instance?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Voting incon, leaning towards sasuke.

I would like people to start posting feats, scans and quotes instead of "better than x or profile got messed because of Y"

 

[Arkenis]

The range was brought up in reference to comparing their analytical prediction and which one is better. That will obviously have ramifications for CqC.

It won't cause they're gonna be fighting up close. This would be like saying having a telescope is good when you're fighting up close, it won't matter here.

You wanna show me some feats? Cause this is just a statement.

Sure.

Sasuke grades were the best of his class among 27
Was keeping up with Haku, with him catching up to Haku's moves and dodging each attempt at a fatal attack, you can check Haku's page to see how good Haku is but this is all before Chunin Exams as well.
Is recognized by the entire village as a genius
Was able to master Kakashi's original jutsu, a jutsu classified as S rank and also while copying one's technique, it'll progress into his own tech

There's a lot more but I ain't boutta drop everything Sasuke's done in pt1. And even if I do agree Sasuke is somehow less skilled than Yuji or Toji, his sharingan allows him to copy one's movements after one exchange, he'll become as skilled as Toji right away.

Feats? Also, neither Yuji or Maki are "brawlers" in any sense of the word, I also don't know what you mean by "normal martial arts without much skills or complexity" when Maki knows several Chinese martial arts which cover weapons and Hand 2 hand training and skillfully dismantled a small squadron of people. While the numbers weren't exactly the same, this is a feat more on par with hebi sasuke taking care of sound ninja fodder easily, a version of Sasuke far more skilled than his 12 year old self.

Didn't say brawler, just said they only show normal martial arts in terms of skill, Maki can know several arts that cover weapons and yet she still isn't impressive on panel, neither is Toji, he never fights in any special style nor is he shown to know any in depth martial arts unlike the ninjas in Naruto train for daily.

I would like people to start posting feats, scans and quotes instead of "better than x or profile got messed because of Y"

I feel like Naruto being one of the most well known series and likely watched by you and others in this thread should at least acknowledge that Sasuke's skill is above Toji when it comes to showings but if you really never watched Naruto then I've listed a couple of Sasuke's showings above. And you can check pages like Neji, Shikamaru to see how good he is.

Because how would you measure the speed of space expanding across a meter to determine how "slow" Toji was in that instance?

Red still has a speed to it no? And it looks more than just 1 meter. He saw it coming and couldn't do anything, that's the main point here and I'm saying something like Chidori or Sushin would be a good speed amp to allow Sasuke severe hits on Toji.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I was wondering when some Naruto and JJK matches would be made now that the verse has been downgraded to 8-A.

I think I'm going to lean slightly towards Toji. I say that Toji has the edge over Sasuke in terms of combat experience and agility based on what's been seen of him. With the soul katana, he can directly attack Sasuke's soul, and he has no resistances to soul manipulation yet. Toji's also got more tools at his disposal thanks to his cursed spirit, and he can combine them to increase the range of his attacks and throw Sasuke off his game. Maki can detect the differences in temperature and the density in the air to help her predict her opponent's moves, meaning Toji should be capable of doing the same. His acrobatic style and ability to jump around would also throw Sasuke off-guard. Really, all Toji needs to do is avoid the fireball jutsu and chidori and he should be fine.

 

[Arkenis]

No Soul Katana

soul katana,

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

You can't restrict specific items since they're part of Toji's standard equipment, especially since Toji primarily uses cursed tools, so it's giving him an unfair handicap. Standard equipment can't be restricted in versus battles. Only optional equipment is restricted, and any of the cursed tools Toji uses aren't optional. Besides, Toji doesn't automatically start with the soul katana. He could just choose to use it later as the battle goes on, so it's just an extra wincon on top of the other wincons I mentioned.

 

[Arkenis]

You can't restrict specific items since they're part of Toji's standard equipment,

It's not standard? He had to go and get these items from the Zenin's storage.
But if not then okay I can just change it to Puppet carnage where he only has PC.

 

[SunDaGamer]

His acrobatic style and ability to jump around would also throw Sasuke off-guard

aren't these kinds of acrobatics standard for the kinds of opponents Sasuke fights regularly?

 

[That_moron2]

This ignores the context of Naruto and how much these 12yr olds are trained in h2h.

We do not see any of the academy past chapter 3 and only a few panels in those chapters at that. It's an assumption to assume they undergo such intense training they can close a gap of (assuming Toji was twice Gojo's age at the time of his death), of 20 years. Also every Zenin clan member is forced to undergo martial arts training.

Toji's h2h isn't really shown though, he uses weapons mostly.

Fighting weapons with h2h usually ends with the guy using his bare hands missing fingers.

If there's some crazy scaling for Toji's h2h that's far above Sasuke's then bring it up.

There is.
Sukuna is very impressive since he was better than the world's best during the golden age of Jujutsu.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

It's not standard? He had to go and get these items from the Zenin's storage.
But if not then okay I can just change it to Puppet carnage where he only has PC.

But he can directly recall all the cursed tools from his cursed spirit that he keeps around his neck. He does exactly this in his battles with Gojo and Geto. The weapons he stores in this cursed spirit are part of his standard equipment. You'd have to get rid of that curse to stop Toji from using his cursed tools.

 

[Arkenis]

We do not see any of the academy past chapter 3 and only a few panels in those chapters at that. It's an assumption to assume they undergo such intense training they can close a gap of (assuming Toji was twice Gojo's age at the time of his death), of 20 years. Also every Zenin clan member is forced to undergo martial arts training.

I've already provided proof on Sasuke's skill up above you can go and check to see how skilled he is in combat.
And Toji's age has really nothing to do with this. The clan do that and yet still come out unimpressive.

But he can directly recall all the cursed tools from his cursed spirit that he keeps around his neck. He does exactly this in his battles with Gojo and Geto. The weapons he stores in this cursed spirit are part of his standard equipment. You'd have to get rid of that curse to stop Toji from using his cursed tools.

When did he recall a weapon? And idk what that really has to do with it being standard, but its whatever so this isn't just a soul katana stomp, which he brings out instantly, I'll switch it to Puppet Toji.

 

[SunDaGamer]

We do not see any of the academy past chapter 3 and only a few panels in those chapters at that. It's an assumption to assume they undergo such intense training they can close a gap of (assuming Toji was twice Gojo's age at the time of his death), of 20 years. Also every Zenin clan member is forced to undergo martial arts training.

A fictional character in one verse can be 5 billion years old and still get skill stomped by Solid Snake in his 30s, listing off age isn't gonna mean anything if you don't have actual skill feats for the character.

There is.

None of that is really impressive considering Maki was physically superior to the entire Zenin clan at that point, you wouldn't say someone is a hyper skilled fighter for beating on a frail dude, the most impressive thing Maki does in the Zenin Clan massacre is keep track of Naoya's 24 FPS movements while fighting him.

 

[Arkenis]

There is.
Sukuna is very impressive since he was better than the world's best during the golden age of Jujutsu.

Just a bunch of chain scaling that amounts to nothing impressive. And some of what you put is deadass just them being stronger than their opponent like Maki. And the Sukuna vs Maki panel is not special at all, she kicked, punched, elbowed, then pushed him without any style to it.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I've already provided proof on Sasuke's skill up above you can go and check to see how skilled he is in combat.
And Toji's age has really nothing to do with this. The clan do that and yet still come out unimpressive.


When did he recall a weapon? And idk what that really has to do with it being standard, but its whatever so this isn't just a soul katana stomp, which he brings out instantly, I'll switch it to Puppet Toji.

There's no key for puppet Toji, and Toji only brought the soul katana out when fighting Geto's cursed spirits. There's no proof he brings it out instantly.

 

[Arkenis]

There's no key for puppet Toji, and Toji only brought the soul katana out when fighting Geto's cursed spirits. There's no proof he brings it out instantly.

That is weird. I will have to make a crt for that then. But alright we can just proceed with him having the soul katana.

 

[Nierre]

with the soul Katana, Toji FRA

Without, Incon

 

[That_moron2]

A fictional character in one verse can be 5 billion years old and still get skill stomped by Solid Snake in his 30s, listing off age isn't gonna mean anything if you don't have actual skill feats for the character.

You totally missed the point. Good job.

None of that is really impressive considering Maki was physically superior to the entire Zenin clan at that point, you wouldn't say someone is a hyper skilled fighter for beating on a frail dude, the most impressive thing Maki does in the Zenin Clan massacre is keep track of Naoya's 24 FPS movements while fighting him.

My guy, I did not post a single scan of her beating on the Zenin. Only one scan of her fight with Naoya is included, and Naoya is faster than her at this point btw. Look at the scans I posted instead of using the read-with-my-eyes-closed no jutsu.

Just a bunch of chain scaling that amounts to nothing impressive.

It amounts to Toji being massively superior in skill to a Jujutsu Sorcerer, who are all presumably well versed in Jujutsu since, y'know.

And some of what you put is deadass just them being stronger than their opponent like Maki.

Maki parrying Naoya's attacks is not purely a strength feat, she could not have done that if she didn't have the skill to since Naoya is verbatim faster than her.

And the Sukuna vs Maki panel is not special at all, she kicked, punched, elbowed, then pushed him without any style to it.

Holy shit style scaling is a thing. The best showings for Sasuke that have been posted amount to him kicking alot, and at worst are statements that don't involve him throwing a single punch. You can't say "she only kicked, punched, and elbowed him" and ignore the context of the feat.

 

[Arkenis]

Holy shit style scaling is a thing. The best showings for Sasuke that have been posted amount to him kicking alot, and at worst are statements that don't involve him throwing a single punch. You can't say "she only kicked, punched, and elbowed him" and ignore the context of the feat.

I posted scans of Sasuke being able to evade and get used to Haku, that's skill.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What’s Sasuke’s answer to stealth anyway.

 

[Arkenis]

What’s Sasuke’s answer to stealth anyway.

He is a ninja. If he gotta go stealth he'll go stealth too

 

[LordGinSama]

Toji FRA.

 

[LordGinSama]

He is a ninja. If he gotta go stealth he'll go stealth too

Being a ninja =/= having good stealth.


Sasuke has never deployed assassination tactics to end a fight, he isn't Itachi who'd 100% go for stealth and ending the match. Furthermore this is still Kid Sasuke, who isn't very experienced. Toji's stealth in comparison to this version of Sasuke is a lot more impressive than anything this Sasuke has shown.

 

[LordGinSama]

I also highly doubt Sasuke's Substitution Jujutsu will bypass Toji's senses and analytical prediction.

Substitution isn't some type of meta stealth, as the name implies it's just them switching with different objects which Toji can counter by using his Analytical Prediction to predict where Sasuke will Substitute with and simply attack there. Dude can sense air currents being displaced, so I'm positive he could simply sense or predict what Sasuke is going to Substitute with. Also I'm pretty sure Sasuke doesn't even spam this move.

 

[LordGinSama]

Well, not really, Sasuke is a much better fighter than Toji and his precog is able to predict fighters of his caliber too.

Kid Sasuke is not a better fighter than Toji. Adult Sasuke sure, definitely not a child Sasuke who's still learning.


Gonna have to hard disagree with that part.

 

[That_moron2]

I posted scans of Sasuke being able to evade and get used to Haku, that's skill.

If we scale Sasuke to Haku in that scene he'd be city level. Haku's not trying.

 

[Arkenis]

If we scale Sasuke to Haku in that scene he'd be city level. Haku's not trying.

We’re talking about skill not Ap? Haku tells us he’s trying so what do you mean?

 

[TauanVictor]

Incon FRA

 

[SuperStar]

Voting Sasuke

 

[That_moron2]

I don't know if I said this but voting Toji

 

[Arkenis]

I also highly doubt Sasuke's Substitution Jujutsu will bypass Toji's senses and analytical prediction.

Substitution isn't some type of meta stealth, as the name implies it's just them switching with different objects which Toji can counter by using his Analytical Prediction to predict where Sasuke will Substitute with and simply attack there. Dude can sense air currents being displaced, so I'm positive he could simply sense or predict what Sasuke is going to Substitute with. Also I'm pretty sure Sasuke doesn't even spam this move.

No I was referring to this for stealth mastery. It’s something all ninjas learn and here Sasuke is doing it. Coupled with substitution jutsu which can and has prevented ninjas from getting hit, I don’t see how this is unbelievable even with Toji’s senses, senses that are only good for picking up human scents or footprints and the world around him. These senses sadly didn’t allow him to dodge Red and even states he needs to time defending against it from only a couple meters away.

 

[That_moron2]

Was keeping up with Haku, with him catching up to Haku's moves and dodging each attempt at a fatal attack, you can check Haku's page to see how good Haku is but this is all before Chunin Exams as well.

We’re talking about skill not Ap? Haku tells us he’s trying so what do you mean?

If Haku was serious they would have killed Sasuke in seconds. Him adjusting to attacks that weren't meant to kill isn't impressive.

 

[LordGinSama]

No I was referring to this for stealth mastery.

Ah my bad then. I still don't think this is something Toji is unable to counter, erasing your presence is something only people like Itachi can do so i doubt Kid Sasuke is able to do the same. Furthermore Shinobi don't actually become invisible in most cases, iirc the only ones who become actually invisible are Mu.


Even if they did become invisible im pretty sure Toji can see curses who are invisible.

It’s something all ninjas learn and here Sasuke is doing it.

Trying to stealth someone who also excels in stealth probably isn't the best tactic. Toji knows the ins and outs of stealth, and he's been doing it for much longer than this Sasuke.

Coupled with substitution jutsu which can and has prevented ninjas from getting hit, I don’t see how this is unbelievable even with Toji’s senses, senses that are only good for picking up human scents or footprints and the world around him.

Sasuke would still have a scent for Toji to follow. Dude also has analytical prediciton that allows him to see temperature changes, vibrations in the air, etc. Unless Sasuke is somehow erasing his presence like Itachi (which i heavily doubt kid Sasuke would scale to Itachi's stealth.) then i don't see his level of stealth actually helping much.


substitution jutsu is counteres by Toji being able to view differences in heat signatures. Nothing Sasuke can swap with is gonna have a heat signature like his. (Wood and such obviously won't have the same heat signature such as human bodies with warm blood.). Sasuke tries to stealth and Toji can still track his scent, feel him moving via Vibrations in the air and tracking his heat signature.

These senses sadly didn’t allow him to dodge Red and even states he needs to time defending against it from only a couple meters away.

Ehhhh not a big fan of this argument as Toji was ya know, taken off guard by Gojo coming back and coming back vastly stronger than before. That Red was also fired at point blank, along with having some gnarly range. Red is also gravity manipulation which isn't exactly easy to dodge.

 

[LordGinSama]

And even if I do agree Sasuke is somehow less skilled than Yuji or Toji, his sharingan allows him to copy one's movements after one exchange, he'll become as skilled as Toji right away.

Yeah this is definitely an NLF.


Sasuke as a teenager with a better Sharingan couldn't copy Killer Bee's movements and got skill stomped even with his Analytical Prediction.

 

[LordGinSama]

he never fights in any special style nor is he shown to know any in depth martial arts unlike the ninjas in Naruto train for daily.

Because he's an assassin, not a martial artist. Two different forms of skill that you can't crossover / compare directly.


Sure Sasuke might be a better hand to hand fighter but Toji is better in his own field which is assassination / weapon based combat. Not even sure what the point in this skill debate is since they're not the same type of fighter in any way shape or form.

It's essentially saying that a samurai is more skilled than a Navy Seal. They're better in swordsmanship sure, but when it comes to what the Seal specializes in you can't compare the two. One uses a gun, one uses a sword. Can't really compare two different styles of combat to one another (Martial arts vs assassination.)