Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling IV

[Damage3245]

@Rich987; that doesn't mean that all attributes are increased equally.

 

[Rich987]

I understand, but we have not quantified how much each attribute is increased and I think it is wrong to apply the increase to only one of them, even though it is said that Senjutsu increases everything, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu.

The only quantified increase we have is the 10x increase from Senjutsu.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath of Itachi; how does this look for the Top Tiers?

 

[AstralKing7]

@Damage3245; Is there any reason for not being accepted? Because it would be to ignore the power of Senjutsu that has this effect.

@AstralKing7; I believe it would be very relevant, it is something that can affect the speed of many characters.

@Omimi; I think you're referring to Jirobo's quote about his strength increasing by 10x with Cursed Mark, which is something that I believe should not be considered, the Cursed Mark grant the user Senjutsu, who not only raises one of his attributes like strength or speed, but all simultaneously.

Not the characters being discussed on this thread. That's what I menat

 

[Rich987]

@AstralKing7; I got it, I only mentioned it because I am relating Speed, but that's okay.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Wrath of Itachi; how does this look for the Top Tiers?

Looks pretty good

 

[LordTracer]

Question, why is Tobirama not plain Relativistic? He was said to be the fastest shinobi of his time, so shouldn't he be faster than Hashirama? Or at least, shouldn't he have two keys, one for when he was alive and one as an Edo, and the alive key would be Relativistic?

Also Juubito's speed description makes it seem like Tobirama > EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto in speed.

 

[Damage3245]

@LordTracer; a second key for Tobirama would probably be a good idea.

And Tobirama might be higher than EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto, but just in terms of reactions.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, an Alive key for Tobirama would be nice, cause I'm pretty sure he's faster than Hashirama and Madara (at least while they were living).

 

[LordTracer]

Also may I suggest Edo Tobirama should have his feat of teleporting out of the way of a close range attack from Sage Madara added in his justification?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Madara's statement does line up with Tobirama being faster while alive. And as for edo tensei Tobirama, he said he was revived at "close to his full power" but not quite at full power, so it lines up quite nicely. Plus Madara literally gained the upper hand upon being revived, which further solidifies the fact that edo tensei makes them a bit weaker. My point is that a key for alive Tobirama makes sense.

 

[AstralKing7]

Why would we give him an alive key? His Edo key is as powerful as his alive key stated

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; it is stated more than once that he's not as powerful as he was when he's alive.

@LordTracer; good idea. Done.

 

[LordTracer]

And on Tobirama's profile, it does say Madara considered his main advantage against Hashi and Tobi is that their Edo bodies weren't as strong as their living selves, further supporting living Tobirama being faster.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; it is stated more than once that he's not as powerful as he was when he's alive.

@LordTracer; good idea. Done.

Where? Cause I'm pretty sure right when they got revived someone made a statement about them being close to their power when they were alive

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yea close to their full power. Doesn't mean they're at 100%. Could be at 80% or 90%. It's kinda vague tbh. I think when you consider madara's statements as well, it pretty much means there's a considerable difference in power between their alive and edo selves.

 

[AstralKing7]

Can I see these statements from Madara. Tobirama could defeat Gold and Silver brothers so there are inconsistencies with him. I can understand Hashi but not Tobirama

 

[LordTracer]

Here's the statement from Madara about neither Hashirama nor Tobirama being at their peak.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Can I see these statements from Madara. Tobirama could defeat Gold and Silver brothers so there are inconsistencies with him. I can understand Hashi but not Tobirama

I mean both Hashi and Tobirama were revived under the same conditions so why would their edo tensei work differently?

And how does Tobirama defeating the gold and silver brothers create inconsistencies? Unless u meant he couldn't defeat them, in which case we don't really know under what conditions that fight took place. It may not have necessarily been prime Tobirama,

plus we don't know how strong the gold and silver brothers were when they were alive either. So the whole situation is kinda vague.

 

[LordTracer]

Didn't Kinkaku and Ginkaku also have the Kinkaku Force helping them when they killed Tobirama?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Didn't Kinkaku and Ginkaku also have the Kinkaku Force helping them when they killed Tobirama?

Yea I believe 20 S-Rank ninjas or something right?

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, exactly that.

 

[GTsek]

Well, I sent scans in Portuguese on the other topic, in this official Portuguese translation, Tobirama claims to have been revived at the height of his power, in da Viz says the opposite if I'm not mistaken ...

 

[AstralKing7]

Yea I believe 20 S-Rank ninjas or something right?


U guys do realize that S rank ninja would only range MHS+ to sub rel at most right.

Tobirama shouldn't have had any problem if he was really rel

 

[LordTracer]

Except there's 20+ of them. Plus Kinkaku and Ginkaku with their Tailed Beast forms.

 

[AstralKing7]

Madara smacked 100+ ninjas who were ranges from the same speed. Madara who is rel. U telling me Hashi who u guys want to scale can't do the same thing???

 

[Damage3245]

Well, I sent scans in Portuguese on the other topic, in this official Portuguese translation, Tobirama claims to have been revived at the height of his power, in da Viz says the opposite if I'm not mistaken ...

Viz's version is more consistent with Madara's later statement.

 

[Damage3245]

U guys do realize that S rank ninja would only range MHS+ to sub rel at most right.

Tobirama shouldn't have had any problem if he was really rel

Tobirama's death is basically a minor plot hole given we know in hindsight that he has the powers of instant teleportation, meaning it is very likely he could have just teleported to safely.

 

[Kingomanoki]

in gaara hiden, multiple low-rank ninja dodge lightning, in kankuro's unit or something.

 

[LordTracer]

@Astral Madara is stronger than Tobirama, for one, and again: Kinkaku and Ginkaku with their transformed states, it wasn't just the 20+ ninja.

 

[AstralKing7]

@Astral Madara is stronger than Tobirama, for one, and again: Kinkaku and Ginkaku with their transformed states, it wasn't just the 20+ ninja.

AP and had nothing to do with speed dude

 

[LordTracer]

AP is relevant to the point you were trying to make of Madara beating 100+ ninja despite being slower than Tobirama. And it's not like speed was the only factor in Tobirama getting killed.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll update the Sandbox with the God Tiers soon.

The Top Tiers ratings can probably be added in the meantime.

 

[AstralKing7]

He was freaking blitzing the ninjas. Do I have to go bring the scans now???

The fact that u guys are using the statement about their Edo forms not being at their most powerful as an excuse to rate their speed is making this a contradiction

 

[LordTracer]

@Damage If the Top Tiers can be applied, may I add an 'Alive' key for Tobirama?

 

[Damage3245]

We'll sort out extra keys in another thread.

 

[LordTracer]

But didn't you give Orochimaru new keys during the High Tiers revision?

 

[Commandoswat]

I posted a few feats for Tobirama i while ago when i wanted thoughts on his AP and Speed. Giving the discussion in regards to his speed taking place i'll just post his feats real quick:

For starters he tagged Juubito 5 times on panel with paperbombs AND placed a FTG seal on him aswell(could have been more but 5 tags are what we see on panel). However the thing that people tend to overlook on this scene is that he did all of this and yet neither KCM Minato/ naruto could notice that he planted those paper bombs and FTG tag:

https://imgur.com/a/pyt023K

https://imgur.com/a/m6NLYp9

This is further reinforced when Tobirama had to blatantly tell them afterwards that he placed a seal on Juubito during their first exchange:

https://imgur.com/a/NLoJMaq

Another speed feat was when a Tobirama CLONE blitzes KCM minato and saves him n crew. Keep in mind that not only didn't KCM Minato notice that he was tagged with a TBS, EMS sasuke and KCM Naruto where watching these events unfold and literally none saw that TBS being placed until Juubito pointed it out and it was about to go off(or else they would obviously have told Minato he was tagged and shouldn't port near them). Despite all of this Tobirama still blitzes them and saves them(Tobirama didn't FTG port towars KCM minato btw, he didn't have any tags over there, the only person he used FTG on was Juubito):

https://imgur.com/a/tICodFO

https://imgur.com/a/6W2V1ZN

https://imgur.com/a/VSyh1eP

It should be noted that Shadow clone FTG's are stated to be slower than the original:

https://imgur.com/a/mVFkRJi

I have heard opinions stating that these aren't really travel speed feats and more so reaction speed and combat speed however i'll like to hear your thoughts on this.

I believe that Edo Madara was pretty sure he could take on Juubito whom as we have seen Tobirama could react to, thus alive sage mode Madara claiming that Tobirama was faster than him isn't inconsistent.

 

[Damage3245]

@CommandoSwat, we're already giving him Relativistic reaction speed for those feats.

 

[LordTracer]

Those ones of Tobirama saving Minato from the Truth Seeking Orb seem more like movement speed than reaction speed, though that might just be me.

Actually, so does him placing the bombs and seal on Juubito.