Naruto: Shippuden Akatsuki (+others) AP upgrade

[KingTempest]

The thing is, the akatsuki aren't "Low tiers" their purpose in the story is to take out these supposed "God tiers you're talking about"

Anyone who gets harmed by Shikamaru is a low tier.
As we've said, they use their special abilities to defeat them, and your speculation and headcanon with delusional "common sense" is your support of otherwise.

If you want to say the WA bijuu are stronger, off feats, it just upscales pre wa bijuu because they arent weakened by the Edo Tensei.

And like I've said far earlier, you need to prove that the bijuu are weaker. Bijuu aren't reanimated, the jinchuriki are.

No chunin are going to bijuu level??? Where are you getting this from?

Shikamaru.

And no, the bijuu are DEFINITELY not the strongest thing in the Verse until Madara. Plenty of characters are at bijuu level prior to that.

I can't name a single "bijuu level" character prior to Madara's showing.

The 4th raikage is stronger than his perfect jinchuuriki brother, who is stronger than the 8 tails.

What makes Bee stronger than Gyuki?

Karin literally says his chakra is approaching bijuu levels when he somewhat powers up in the Five Kage summit, and the last tailed beast she saw was fully transformed bee.

Chakra reserves

Other characters like Orochimaru who was originally recruited to take out bijuu

Please tell me you know of all the ninjutsu Orochimaru can do.

and can eliminate people like Rasa who subdued shukaku on the regular

Who defeated Rasa via an elemental advantage via gold dust

as well as being even with hiruzen should be bijuu level.

Wasn't Hiruzen weaker than Minato?

Bijuus arent as strong as you are making them out to be

 

[Damage3245]

He gets decapitated by a cutting device enhanced with cutting power wind style. Doesnt work. Same thing goes for piercing with Shikamaru

It's funny how attacks that cause significant damage are in no way valid for scaling to you - but offscreen fights totally are.

And stop bringing up the databook; it doesn't state anywhere that the Akatsuki can overpower the Biju.

This notion of "It's their entire point in the story" is the worst excuse for an attempt as scaling I've ever seen.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

He only harms hidan with cutting damage, which I already explained in Naruto scales vastly differently to AP
I'm only proposing Kakuzu being 6-C with hardening, and Hidan was only dismembered by dozens and dozens of papaer bombs

You have yet to show proof of it being commonly used and acquired by genin. The fact shikamaru planned to use them against people he knew were hunting bijuu/jinchuuriki should show his trust in their effectiveness.

Harming Hidan with Shadow Jutsu:

Harming Hidan with a single explosive tag:

Oh wow, why are Hidan and Kakuzu so afraid of a single explosive tag? The aloof Hidan was even worried about Kakuzu due to the danger of a direct ht from a single explosive tag; good thing Kakuzu used hardening just in time, huh?
Poor Kakuzu... He wouldn't be fine if he didn't use hardening...

6-C Explosive tags when???

Consider me crazy, but wouldn't it be an overkill to use explosive tags which can harm Tailed Beasts in the Chunin exam?

It's most consistent for him to either be referring to the nine tails or all of the bijuu

Disagreed. And it wouldn't matter, because five Kages would scale far above them.

The Samurai only has it on him for a second, and it only touches his armor, not him. When does Karin get hit by amaterasu, and her being bijuu level isnt even a problem, since with her adamantine chains, she could destroy the wood statue that was stalemating the shinobi alliance. Of course Amaterasu's strength changes, but its in accordance with the users strength, not plot. I use that sasuke because a weaker amaterasu of his was able to hurt transformed bee.

Idk, but this sounds more than a second to me:

Sasuke and A fight for the rest of the chapter, and the burning Samurai is only shown halfway through the next chapter.

Why didn't the armor burst from Amaterasu like the giant toad's stomach?

As for Karin,

That is an S-rank jacket if I've ever seen one.

All in all, thinking about how much more powerful base Killer Bee is compared to the Eight Tails makes me chuckle.

You've got to be kidding me. We see her completely uninjured before she transforms. It's possible, ok, is it plausible? Seems like a stretch and headcanony. A BLOOD SAMPLE? Why are you just assuming a random hospital is going to have a blood sample from her, or that they'd give it to them. Even if Kakuzu and Hidan killed everyone at the hospital, how would they be able to find it.

Hidan specifically notes his attack speed is the slowest in the akatsuki and that his aim sucks, as well as the fact that kakuzu is usually the one that takes out bijuu.

Plus, matatabi is a chakra entity, cutting can function differently with chakra than with normal human anatomy

Not all scratches are obvious. Kakashi was able to steal Kakuzu's blood and put it in a blood-storing capsule without him noticing by the way.

The duo have been tasked with capturing the Two Tails for years; if they are intending to min-max Hidan's hax, spying on Yugito and raiding whatever hospital that gets her blood sample is exactly what they would do.

Hidan doesn't need to be the one to scratch blood; Kakuzu can hand the blood to Hidan.

As I mentioned, blood can be inconsistent in a series full of inconsistencies, as shown by the Eight Tails and Edo Tenseis bleeding.

Otherwise, as I mentioned they can do the waiting/hiding/dodging strategy until the Jinchuriki cools down.

There are many plausible options for Hidan/Kakuzu to take down Tailed Beasts while being hundreds or thousands of times physically weaker than them.

The Kaguya argument is different, because she also had absorbed chakra that wasn't hers, which is why it doesnt necessarily scale normally

Same thing with Deidara applies to Pain.

Her profile takes into account that she has absorbed Chakra that is not hers, and still doesn't give her Star/Universe level physicals. Same argument.

I'm perfectly fine with Possibly/Likely ratings, I just don't get why you guys are trying so hard to argue against the BLATANT narrative and the supporting databooks that say they are outright stronger.

Because they don't need to be physically stronger than Biju when they can defeat them with basic strategy, and such interpretation would create a self-defeating scaling chain that is constantly contradicted by the balatant narrative.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

I can't name a single "bijuu level" character prior to Madara's showing.

idk man i think the bijuu were bijuu level before madara

 

[KingTempest]

Are you referring to shikamaru? You realize his mission was to hunt down the akatsuki members correct? Why would they not give him stronger paper bombs, especially if he has someone like Kakashi on his team.

You know that they prepped up themselves and nobody prepped them up for that mission right? Even the Hokage was like "bring your asses back"

 

[KingTempest]

idk man i think the bijuu were bijuu level before madara

Ngl I chuckled at this, you got points from me

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

He gets decapitated by a cutting device enhanced with cutting power wind style. Doesnt work. Same thing goes for piercing with Shikamaru

Do you mean the same cutting device that can barely penetrate a tree?

Barely survives Chiruku?

It's in the Manga??

It's not an outlier for hidan, because it's stated he's stronger, and it's his entire purpose in the story.

Feats>statements and Hidan has a whole lot less tier 6 feats.
his only tier 6 feat happens off-screen, devoid of context.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

Ngl I chuckled at this, you got points from me

that's what i do

 

[LordTracer]

I can't name a single "bijuu level" character prior to Madara's showing.

Well, you could say the Five Kage (especially Tsunade, since she punched a hole through Madara), and KCM2 Naruto for obvious reasons. But other than them, eh.

 

[Antvasima]

staff evaluation tends to be wrong then lmao

No, they usually tend to work much better than the alternative in my experience, and I have participated in many thousands of threads whereas all of your experience is based on offhanded hearsay.

Also, revise your disrespectful attitude, and stop trolling, if you want to stay in this community.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

No, they usually tend to work much better than the alternative in my experience, and I have participated in many thousands of threads whereas all of your experience is based on offhanded hearsay.

Also, revise your disrespectful attitude, and stop trolling, if you want to stay in this community.

it's less disrespect and more of a fact, roshi's moon feat that happened on panel was denied from the staff and the staff only for years, clearly the system isn't the best if something like that slips through

 

[Wuke]

Harming Hidan with Shadow Jutsu:

Harming Hidan with a single explosive tag:

Oh wow, why are Hidan and Kakuzu so afraid of a single explosive tag? The aloof Hidan was even worried about Kakuzu due to the danger of a direct ht from a single explosive tag; good thing Kakuzu used hardening just in time, huh?
Poor Kakuzu... He wouldn't be fine if he didn't use hardening...
6-C Explosive tags when???

Consider me crazy, but wouldn't it be an overkill to use explosive tags which can harm Tailed Beasts in the Chunin exam?


Disagreed. And it wouldn't matter, because five Kages would scale far above them.


Idk, but this sounds more than a second to me:

Sasuke and A fight for the rest of the chapter, and the burning Samurai is only shown halfway through the next chapter.

Why didn't the armor burst from Amaterasu like the giant toad's stomach?

As for Karin,

That is an S-rank jacket if I've ever seen one.

All in all, thinking about how much more powerful base Killer Bee is compared to the Eight Tails makes me chuckle.


Not all scratches are obvious. Kakashi was able to steal Kakuzu's blood and put it in a blood-storing capsule without him noticing by the way.

The duo have been tasked with capturing the Two Tails for years; if they are intending to min-max Hidan's hax, spying on Yugito and raiding whatever hospital that gets her blood sample is exactly what they would do.

Hidan doesn't need to be the one to scratch blood; Kakuzu can hand the blood to Hidan.

As I mentioned, blood can be inconsistent in a series full of inconsistencies, as shown by the Eight Tails and Edo Tenseis bleeding.

Otherwise, as I mentioned they can do the waiting/hiding/dodging strategy until the Jinchuriki cools down.

There are many plausible options for Hidan/Kakuzu to take down Tailed Beasts while being hundreds or thousands of times weaker than them.


Her profile takes into account that she has absorbed Chakra that is not hers, and still doesn't give her Star/Universe level physicals. Same argument.


Because they don't need to be physically stronger than Biju when they can defeat them with standard tactics, and such interpretation would create a self-defeating scaling chain that is constantly contradicted by the balatant narrative.

The shadow jutsu is piercing damage. Where is Hidan harmed? We've already been over in this thread how the paper bombs are either wildly inconsistent, and shouldn't be used as an antifeat, or why they can be consistent if you dont assume they are the same strength. Both sides favor me

The Amaterasu touches his armor, not him. Try again

The toad stomach has flesh and sinew, and it's also cast by itachi, who should be way stronger than sasuke at that point

Karin is an uzumaki, she can just heal from the amaterasu, and as I explained, already has really good feats regardless

When did I mention base bee? Base bee also can scale above, given that he was able to intercept v1 raikages lariat, who should be above the 8 tails

Kakashi steals kakuzus blood AFTER HE HAD BEEN STABBED THROUGH THE HEART WITH A CHIDORI, why is kakuzu gonna notice a little blood being drained after that?

That assumes a hospital even has a blood sample of hers, which you could never prove.

Why are you assuming Yugito would randomly revert back to base?

And yes, they wouldn't be able to defeat her if they rely on AP based attacks

She doesn't do any physical feats post etso, so that doesnt work

You still haven't shown why the scaling is self defeating...

 

[Antvasima]

I understand this, and I respect that decision, but it in cases like these where the staff are literally arguing against the point of the akatsuki, as well as supporting scaling and databooks, while also being proponents of tiering that doesnt allow the show to happen, it seems a bit ridiculous. I don't know why it's such a big deal. The point of the akatsuki is to kill bijuu. That's what they do. They scale

Well, for the record, I am personally neutral about this discussion, but if other upcoming revisions are supposed to cover it, and there is neverending spam arguing that exhausts our staff, whose help is needed elsewhere as well, we eventually have to shut down the thread, especially if the topic has been extensively handled before, and there is an inherent plot hole for the verse regarding character durabilities versus their attack potencies.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Well, you could say the Five Kage (especially Tsunade, since she punched a hole through Madara), and KCM2 Naruto for obvious reasons. But other than them, eh.

TBF
alot of characters in that arc suffers from War Inflation problems. lmao

Looking at you magical tier jumping Kakashi and Guy

 

[Wuke]

Well, you could say the Five Kage (especially Tsunade, since she punched a hole through Madara), and KCM2 Naruto for obvious reasons. But other than them, eh.

FKS Sasuke too then, since he could contend with the raikage and the other kage. 6th Gate lee also kicked a hole through edo madara
Might guy literally hirudorad madaras susanoo

plenty of characters are bijuu level that you're just ignoring

 

[Wuke]

TBF
alot of characters in that arc suffers from War Inflation problems. lmao

Looking at you magical tier jumping Kakashi and Guy

"magical tier jumping" like they arent rivals and kakashi doesnt train literally every day

 

[Antvasima]

it's less disrespect and more of a fact, roshi's moon feat that happened on panel was denied from the staff and the staff only for years, clearly the system isn't the best if something like that slips through

That is one issue among tens of thousands that were handled properly, and the issue wasn't that he did not perform the feat, but that it seemed completely out of place/inconsistent so early in the series, so again, you base your attitude on offhanded hearsay.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, for the record, I am personally neutral about this discussion, but if other upcoming revisions are supposed to cover it, and there is neverending spam arguing that exhausts our staff, whose help is needed elsewhere as well, we eventually have to shut down the arguing, especially if the topic has been extensively handled before, and there is an inherent plot hole for the verse regarding character durabilities versus their attack potencies.

There are some planned revisions that I'm aware of for the Biju specifically upcoming.

 

[Wuke]

Do you mean the same cutting device that can barely penetrate a tree?

It's in the Manga??

Feats>statements and Hidan has a whole lot less tier 6 feats.
his only tier 6 feat happens off-screen, devoid of context.

Why would Asuma go all out against a tree when hes just trying to demonstrate something to naruto???

What chapter.

Argument from ignorance, if it can happen offscreen and he's stated stronger, then the conclusion is that he scales

 

[LordTracer]

TBF
alot of characters in that arc suffers from War Inflation problems. lmao

Looking at you magical tier jumping Kakashi and Guy

That’s true lol, but at least there’s only a few people who have legitimate reason to scale to the full Bijuu. Kakashi and Guy were struggling with V2s.

And I wouldn’t say Guy was really tier jumping, he was just using higher levels of the Eight Gates. Kakashi has no excuse though

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

"magical tier jumping" like they arent rivals and kakashi doesnt train literally every day

the gap between tiers is fairly huge, It's Not Impossible but it is Funny. hence why I never argued against the scaling.

 

[BlazetheStriker]

That is one issue among tens of thousands that were handled properly, and the issue wasn't that he did not perform the feat, but that it seemed completely out of place/inconsistent so early in the series, so again, you base your attitude on offhanded hearsay.

an issue that
-persisted for years
-pertained to a series that multiple staff members stated disliking for (looking at matt)
-mostly got shut down by staff with no room for further discussion
system's bad if staff can just say "no" to series' they don't like and never allow users to dispute it

 

[Damage3245]

an issue that
-persisted for years
-pertained to a series that multiple staff members stated disliking for (looking at matt)
-mostly got shut down by staff with no room for further discussion
system's bad if staff can just say "no" to series' they don't like and never allow users to dispute it

Real ad hominem method there if you can just accuse staff who disagree with you as "not liking the series".

 

[Wuke]

That’s true lol, but at least there’s only a few people who have legitimate reason to scale to the full Bijuu. Kakashi and Guy were struggling with V2s.

And I wouldn’t say Guy was really tier jumping, he was just using higher levels of the Eight Gates. Kakashi has no excuse though

They weren't struggling lol, kakashi was damaging several v2s at once with his lightning cable

 

[Wuke]

the gap between tiers is fairly huge, It's Not Impossible but it is Funny. hence why I never argued against the scaling.

It's not like that happens the day after the kakuzu fight though. Theres a significant amount of time that passes where kakashi can get stronger, and he keeps getting stronger throughout the war arc

 

[BlazetheStriker]

Real ad hominem method there if you can just accuse staff who disagree with you as "not liking the series".

i can provide screenies if you like, but the topic's starting to drift

 

[Wuke]

That’s true lol, but at least there’s only a few people who have legitimate reason to scale to the full Bijuu. Kakashi and Guy were struggling with V2s.

And I wouldn’t say Guy was really tier jumping, he was just using higher levels of the Eight Gates. Kakashi has no excuse though

Kakashi trains everyday and is also supposed to be a rival for Guy. It's perfectly fine if he's there

 

[Ionliosite]

The point of the akatsuki is to kill bijuu. That's what they do.

This is incorrect. Akatsuki don't KILL Bijuu. They CAPTURE the Jichuuruki to EXTRACT the Bijuu from them.

 

[Antvasima]

Most of the major staff members, including me, really like Dragon Ball, so your argument is based on ignorant nonsensical paranoia, and it is offensive to condemn many tens of thousands of hours of unpaid volunteer work based on a single uninformed out of context gotcha issuee that we eventually corrected anyway.

It is impossible to not make mistakes with so much work to do, but we are usually willing to correct them.

 

[Wuke]

This is incorrect. Akatsuki don't KILL Bijuu. They CAPTURE the Jichuuruki to EXTRACT the Bijuu from them.

They have to damage/subdue the bijuu to capture them. Did you not see deidara/gaara

 

[Damage3245]

They have to damage/subdue the bijuu to capture them. Did you not see deidara/gaara

Gaara's durability doesn't scale to Shukaku.

 

[Wuke]

Gaara's durability doesn't scale to Shukaku.

Based on? It's stated that jinchuuriki are stronger than bijuu.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Why would Asuma go all out against a tree when hes just trying to demonstrate something to naruto???

Because the characters make a big deal out of it, with Asuma even saying that IF HE TRIED, he could even cut through the stone completely, with naruto freaking out.

What chapter.

>if it can happen offscreen and he's stated stronger, then the conclusion is that he scales

Occam's razor is in my favour as Hidan has shown to have consistently feats below your 6-C Tailed beast.

 

[LordTracer]

I don’t see this thread really going anywhere, so I’ll just say that the only people I think should be allowed to scale to the 6-C Bijuu are KCM2 Naruto, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, the Five Kage, KCM2 Minato, and the amped EMS Sasuke that was matching KCM2.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Based on? It's stated that jinchuuriki are stronger than bijuu.

* perfect jinchuriki

 

[Damage3245]

Based on? It's stated that jinchuuriki are stronger than bijuu.

It isn't.

Not in the way you're thinking of.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I don’t see this thread really going anywhere, so I’ll just say that the only people I think should be allowed to scale to the 6-C Bijuu are KCM2 Naruto, Madara, Hashirama, Tobirama, the Five Kage, KCM2 Minato, and the amped EMS Sasuke that was matching KCM2. M

Sakura would scale as she is stated to be above Tsunade by the end of the series.
and Equal to the Sasuke that fought alongside KCM Naruto during the Team 7 reunion.

 

[Wuke]

Because the characters make a big deal out of it, with Asuma even saying that IF HE TRIED, he could even cut through the stone completely, with naruto freaking out.

>if it can happen offscreen and he's stated stronger, then the conclusion is that he scales

Occam's razor is in my favour as Hidan has shown to have consistently feats below your 6-C Tailed beast.

Are you propsing like 9-C asuma??? LOL

How is Hidan near death here???

Occam's razor is not, since you are assuming the narrative doesnt matter, that the databooks are contradicted, when there is a perfectly logical counter explanation. Occams razor only works if we have no external evidence, but we do here

 

[Wuke]

* perfect jinchuriki

Nope. The statement is made in reference to unstable juubito, who cant control his power completely

 

[LordTracer]

Sakura would scale as she is stated to be above Tsunade by the end of the series.
and Equal to the Sasuke that fought alongside KCM Naruto during the Team 7 reunion.

Yeah Sakura’s kinda weird since she’s above Tsunade but also stated to be comparable to/above KCM1 Naruto (although he really looks like he’s in KCM2 to me) and base EMS Sasuke. Like, I can see her scaling, but I can also see issues with it.