Nameless King (and others) Upgrade

[SheevShezarrine]

Gwyn gave significant pieces of his Lord Soul to Seath, The Four Kings, and his children (among which Nameless King is heavily implied to be one to the point of practical canonicity), which should put each of them in Tier 4, seeing as Gwyn was High 4-C before doing so. I say we upgrade Seath and Nameless King to 4-C for this reason.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Are people seriously ignoring this?

 

[Rmnimoc]

I've got a few questions about this.

1: I get that the Nameless King is heavily implied to be one of his kids, but is it ever 100% confirmed that he got a chunk of the Lord Soul? I get that it makes sense he might have it, but we probably shouldn't have head-canon or speculation on here.

2: Gwyn's 4-C rating is because the power of his soul can fuel the sun right? It doesn't seem right to put everyone on that same level just because they have a chunk of it. If he gave half of his power to any one of them and then did it, I could believe it, but have Seath, The Four Kings, or the Nameless King done anything that says or implies that they're Stellar-level instead of Country-level?

3: If the Nameless King really canonically was Gwyn's firstborn, then he really shouldn't scale to him anyway. Didn't Gwyn yank his firstborn's godhood away from him along with his name after he sided with the dragons?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

1. Gwyn's children were stated to recieve parts of Gwyn's soul, along with 4 Kings and Seath

2. Gwyn was High 4-C prior to becoming Lord of Cinder

3. If NK had had his power stripped from him, he wouldn't be using lightning in his boss fight, and probably wouldn't be using the same soul transfer thing that Ornstein and Smough use

 

[Rmnimoc]

1. Gwyn's children were stated to recieve parts of Gwyn's soul, along with 4 Kings and Seath
2. Gwyn was High 4-C prior to becoming Lord of Cinder

3. If NK had had his power stripped from him, he wouldn't be using lightning in his boss fight, and probably wouldn't be using the same soul transfer thing that Ornstein and Smough use

1. Yeah, but I think in most cases you get written out of the will the first time you side with your dad's mortal enemies and try to kill him, so I'd say that's still a bit up in the air.

2. That doesn't really change anything does it? He may have been High 4-C, but that doesn't mean everyone who got a part of his soul is automatically 4-C too. Each of them got, at absolute most, 1/7th of his power. Unless they've done something 4-C on their own, there isn't anything to back up that they're Stellar. They could be anywhere from Country-level to Stellar. Do any of them do anything Stellar-level and claim that the chunk of Gwyn's Lord Soul is why?

3. Aren't basically the only things we know for a fact about Gwyn's firstborn that he joined the dragons and Gwyn stripped him of his power? That's pretty much it right? Unless I'm missing a chunk of the lore that said he got it back or something, then either it was stripped from the Nameless King by Gwyn, or the Nameless King isn't Gwyn's firstborn. Is there something there I'm missing?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Why wouldn't receiving say 1/7th of his soul translate to AP? Especially when the power of said said soul is whats used for the stellar feat to begin with? Unless splitting your soul somehow reduces your power by, what octillions of times per split? Then there's no reason to assume they wouldn't since souls give you power in the first place.

 

[Rmnimoc]

Why wouldn't receiving say 1/7th of his soul translate to AP? Especially when the power of said said soul is whats used for the stellar feat to begin with? Unless splitting your soul somehow reduces your power by, what octillions of times per split? Then there's no reason to assume they wouldn't since souls give you power in the first place.

Who knows how it divides the power. Maybe splitting it in half cuts it by 50%. Maybe it's 5000%. Maybe it's such a huge number we can't fathom. Not only do we have no real way to know, but that stellar feat was performed after he had already gotten rid of the lord soul. We don't know if the power of the lord soul is enough to perform that feat on it's own, we don't know if a fragment of the lord soul is enough to perform the feat. We can probably safely assume it's not though, since even after absorbing the souls of over half of those people, the Chosen Undead was still only about as strong as the burned out husk of Gwyn, who at this point wasn't enough on his own to relink the fire, instead of being substantially stronger like that would imply.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I agree with the notion that Nameless King should be 4-C. Scaling wise, it would make sense.


And I just realized that this is a months old thread, whoops.

 

[Azaroth87]

So upgrade?

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I don't understand how the Nameless King is weaker than the Abyss Watchers.

You have to fight them before you can fight him. Like that's not just game mechanics, that's story progression (even tho yes I know Nameless is an optional boss).

 

[AGENTFURIOUS117]

Lore and game mechanic wise it dosent make much sense. Linking the fire will most of time actually makes you weaker as you loose acces to memories, skills exetera. And the abys watchers are just knights who follow the covenant of wolfs blood they are never implied to have any special abilities or "powers" if you will the whole fire thing is likely just because of that specific abys watcher being a lord of cinder. And if we take stats into consideration the nameless king curve stomps the abys watchers

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Can I bump this shit for a sec

I see the reasoning here, issue is, we dunno how much of a lord soul bit Seath, children, and so on. I'll also outright ignore the whole "Nameless comes after Abyss Watchers, ergo, stronger" thing since that doesn't really hold up with many other bosses coming after the Abyss Watchers yet by lore being weaker.

I can see an argument for 4 Kings, Seath, and Gwyn's children having "At least 6-B, possibly 4-C" as their tier based on A. Gwyn sharing his lord soul with them, which might bring them up to that level, and B. Seath's magic being considered superior to Big Hat Logan's, whose Soul Spear is directly stated to rival Gwyn's lightning in terms of power.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Just to keep this thread afloat a wee bit longer, I got some item descriptions, and also a little statement of my own.

"Soul of Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight and Cinder, who linked the First Flame. Lord Gwyn bequeathed most of his power to the Gods, and burned as cinder for the First Flame, but even so, Lord Gwyn's soul is a powerful thing indeed"

"Greatsword born from the soul of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder. As bearer of the ultimate soul, Gwyn wielded the bolts of the sun, but before linking the fire, divided that power amongst his children, and set off with only this great sword as his companion."

These item descriptions prove Gwyn isn't giving his chosen recipients chump change, and he may have even been weakened from giving some juice to his godly subjects before dividing up his soul just prior to the Kiln. The second description also kinda implies that he was considerably weaker than his prime, in stating that his greatsword was his only companion (and not including something like "and the strength of lightning" or sumn). While he certainly wasn't a pushover, I'd still say he gave up the majority of his power to his b'ys.

As for Rmnimoc's objections, I'd say the fact that filling the Lordvessel is the final test of worthiness prior to fighting Gwyn is proof enough that the Lord Soul recipients are in the Star level range, since the Chosen Undead has to prove they're in the same ballpark as LoC Gwyn and thus fit to take his place.

 

[DarkGrath]

Can I bump this shit for a sec

I see the reasoning here, issue is, we dunno how much of a lord soul bit Seath, children, and so on. I'll also outright ignore the whole "Nameless comes after Abyss Watchers, ergo, stronger" thing since that doesn't really hold up with many other bosses coming after the Abyss Watchers yet by lore being weaker.

I can see an argument for 4 Kings, Seath, and Gwyn's children having "At least 6-B, possibly 4-C" as their tier based on A. Gwyn sharing his lord soul with them, which might bring them up to that level, and B. Seath's magic being considered superior to Big Hat Logan's, whose Soul Spear is directly stated to rival Gwyn's lightning in terms of power.

That sounds more like a "Likely 4-C" at least, considering how it is consistent with scaling and the fact that it at best requires some mild assumptions.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

oh thank god somebody is actually making a thread about the other charaters other then the lords of sinder beign 4Cs

like manus(lets be honest the only reason we are not putting nashandra on the darksouls page is because it would outright contredict the fact that manus is only 6B since there is no way in hell a single shard of his soul is billions of times more powerful then himself) also the other great lords like nito and the bed of chaos

which in term would explain how a demon who only possesed embers of the chaos flame is able to fight the ashen one after he beat the the soul of cinder aka high 4C while the main source of said flame isn't even low 4C

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I feel like the only reason DS2 pages are lacking is coz a majority of DS fans didn't like it.

Also you don't have to fight any demon after the Lord of Cinder so that demon straight up has no reason to scale.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

In my opinion, the following pages should be At least 6B, possibly/likely 4C...

- Nameless King, Gwynevere, Gwyndolin, scaling to a fraction of Gwyn's power

- Seath the Scaleless, also to Geyn via shard of his lord soul

- Manus, Nito, and Izalith via their own Lord Souls

- Queens in DS2 via being shards of Manus

- 4 Kings via shards of Gwyn's soul

Anybody I'm forgetting?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I feel like the only reason DS2 pages are lacking is coz a majority of DS fans didn't like it.
Also you don't have to fight any demon after the Lord of Cinder so that demon straight up has no reason to scale.

im talking about the demon prince in the ring city dlc

 

[Sir_sun_man]

In my opinion, the following pages should be At least 6B, possibly/likely 4C...
- Nameless King, Gwynevere, Gwyndolin, scaling to a fraction of Gwyn's power

- Seath the Scaleless, also to Geyn via shard of his lord soul

- Manus, Nito, and Izalith via their own Lord Souls

- Queens in DS2 via being shards of Manus

- 4 Kings via shards of Gwyn's soul

Anybody I'm forgetting?

Crossbreed Priscilla since her life steal power was stated to be a great threat to the gods

 

[Tetsucabrah]

In my opinion, the following pages should be At least 6B, possibly/likely 4C...
- Nameless King, Gwynevere, Gwyndolin, scaling to a fraction of Gwyn's power

- Seath the Scaleless, also to Geyn via shard of his lord soul

- Manus, Nito, and Izalith via their own Lord Souls

- Queens in DS2 via being shards of Manus

- 4 Kings via shards of Gwyn's soul

Anybody I'm forgetting?

I think Midir is implied to have gotten a soul from Gwyn. Might be wrong but Dragons usually don't have Souls so he had to have gotten it from somewhere.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Midir also fights pretty evenly with end-game Ashen One, twice.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Iirc Lifehunt is more like a specialized, highly potent kind of life/death manipulation (represented in-gane by some seriously powerful bleed status effect), and thus is more hax than actual AP

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Sir sun man

You can fight him before SoC. Plus, order of fights is hardly a method of attaining High 4-C.

Not all gods have a shard of Gwyn's soul, so iffy on Priscilla. I'm aware of her lore.

@Tetsu

Ancient Wyvern has them, so not sure on that one either.

@Sheev

Fighting with late-game Ashen One alone isn't enough. Midir being the guardian of one of Gwyn's children may be an argument though, since it wouldn't make sense to send a 6-B to defend a possible 4-C.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@Sir sun man
You can fight him before SoC. Plus, order of fights is hardly a method of attaining High 4-C.

@Tetsu

Ancient Wyvern has them, so not sure on that one either.

not lore wise he fought the demon prince in the ringed city which lore wise takes place after the end of dark souls 3 aka after ashen one has beaten the soul of sinder not to mention the fact that the demon prince fought lorian in the lore

also the wyvern dosen't have a central soul like every other boss(not to mention that it ain't a dragon but a wyvern) midir on the other hand has one

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...no.

Lore wise, the Ringed City is at the end of the world but the Ashen One that heads there need not have killed the Soul of Cinder. Just... no lol.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

oh yeah and the whole iron dragon slayer armor description which states "The Armour, defeated by the Champion of Ash in Lothric, was left ages to rust, until it slipped into an abyssal swamp, where it was possessed once again by the memory of the hunt." didn't happen right?

or did the ashen one beat it and then take littral ages to get to lorian and lothric or he just chilled out for a few decades and then went to the ringed city and then he beat the soul of cinder

not mention that we see ruins of lothric in the dreg heep and not as in some random parts of lotric but the starting area of ds 3

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, I'm saying time travel allows that to happen without defeating the Soul of Cinder. Which is what happens. Time travel.

Common sense boyo.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean, to be fair, Dreg Heap is literally every place on Earth converged into one area.

Also, you do realize that just because Ashen didn't kill Dragonslayer Armour before visiting Ringed City, doesn't mean he couldn't do it after completing Ringed City right? Like take it like this, Ashen goes to Ringed City and meets Dragonslayer Armour. Meanwhile, Dragonslayer Armour in the present is still fine and dandy. After completing Ringed City, Ashen one goes back to the present and kills Dragonslayer Armour, thus preventing a paradox.

Ringed City wouldn't have taken Ashen One that long to complete as well, so I don't see why he couldn't make that detour and come back to finish his mission.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

fine im not gona go into the time shananagins of dark souls because that always stars a low 2C descusions

but the only way to get to the ring city dlc is past at least Lothric and Loria or even worse Sister Friede, soo no matter how you spin it he can't get to ringed city before either beating a lord of cinder prior to their self imilation or an even stronger charater

and ageing the demon prince fought lorian lore wise its kinda set in stone

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah but, Lorian was 4-C at the time which means Demon Prince is also 4-C.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

yeah thats what i have been saying,

demon prince who only has a fading chaos flame inside it is 4C while the main source of the stuff is 6B kinda makes little sense

that was my whole argument for 4C great Lords

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...none of us denied Demon Princes being 4-C. I already made an argument for 4-C Lord Souls. I'm sorta confused.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

now im confused

i was useing the fact that one of the demons spawned by the chaos flame such as demon prince being 4C via lore as extra back up that the lord souls are 4C

 

[Sir_Ovens]

What? We never denied Lord Souls being 4-C, we're advocating for it.

We're just saying that Demon Prince isn't High 4-C.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

@Tetsu

Ancient Wyvern has them, so not sure on that one either.

No the ancient wyvern doesn't have a boss soul.

Unless you're thinking of the ancient dragon from DS2. But that's an artificial dragon created by Aldia iirc.

 

[PimpDemon]

1. Gwyn's children were stated to recieve parts of Gwyn's soul, along with 4 Kings and Seath

2. Gwyn was High 4-C prior to becoming Lord of Cinder

3. If NK had had his power stripped from him, he wouldn't be using lightning in his boss fight, and probably wouldn't be using the same soul transfer thing that Ornstein and Smough use

Actually he should still be able to use lightning its sunlight spear which should be the one he wouldn't be able to use and guess what he cant use it

 

[WeeklyBattles]

4 year necro

 

[PimpDemon]

4 year necro

I didn't see that and to be fair i thought it was still active since you know comments arent disabled