Nabu Low 1-C Upgrade

[Confluctor]

Doctor Fate's last key, Nabu, should be Low 1-C. To start off, the statement in his file is very casual and in no mean the peak of his ability. In addition, he is a being who resides in the Sphere of Gods.

Here, Darkseid explains how humanity is a threat to anyone in the Fourth Dimension and above.
Here, Nabu explains the consciousness of a Lord of Order. Their mind is of a higher order - higher plane of existence.
Here, Wotan says Nabu is the descended one. He was one of the beings who resided in a higher dimension but came down because of some stuff that went down between him and his fellow Lords of Order.
In addition, the Lords of Chaos and Order were not affected by Crisis on Infinite Earths event, which was explained in more details in Doctor Fate 1988 #10 by Darkseid - please give it a thorough read for better understanding. Additionally, they are shown to be transcendent of the universe/multiverse.
And of course, the Map of the Multiverse which places of the Lords of Order and Choas in the same level as other inhabitants of the Sphere of Gods.


Tl;dr, Doc's final key needs to be changed to Low 1-C.


Sources:
Doctor Fate 1988 #10, #13, #14
Who's Who: Update '88 #2, Who's Who in the DC Universe Vol 1 10

 

[Deleted member 11410]

Neutral.

 

[Confluctor]

Bump

 

[Confluctor]

Bump

 

[Teezar]

Funny enough I remember firestorm talking something similar in a past thread or someone else.
I'm neutral as I haven't read the books of the scans you posted.

 

[Confluctor]

Pretty sure it was me

I recrecommend reading Doctor Fate 1988 #10, that has quite a lot of info - some explicit - about their placement in DC

 

[Teezar]

Oh cool cause I remember firestorm saying something about nabu having power to destroy the Sphere of gods but kept it on hold.

 

[Hykuu]

Yeah sure. We already have True-Form Darkseid at Low 1-C, and the conflict between New Genesis and Apokolips (I.e, between the New Gods) is already a mere reflection of the conflict between The Lords of Order and Chaos.

It's not really clear to me why the Humanity statements really matter. In-context, they're referring to Humanity's potential to transcend Duality - more specifically, the comic focuses on Kent and Linda's potential to do so. I don't think we should use this to scale to Nabu, especially because the power was stated to transcend The Lords of Order and Chaos. And we quite literally see them spawning from it, too. The context to this power refers to Humanity's potential for "Love", by the way. Because of Dematteis' weird ass philosophy. We see this mentioned throughout basically all his work and it's made explicit in the Darkseid fight.

Why would we interpret the "Descended One" as being descended from a Higher Dimension? The statement literally just needs more context to support that Interpretation.

Besides that, I think the Lords of Order and Chaos have alot going for them, especially in the New 52. It's directly stated in that same Doctor Fate run that they operate "On every plane, on every level of being and consciousness". In The Books of Magic series, Doctor Fate directly states that the conflict between Chaos and Order is the basis of Magic. A theme which is consistently shown throughout DC. I think this at the very least suggests they aren't mere multiversal constants, as the conflict between both is essentially the fundamental principle of concepts such as Magic, Creation, and so on. This shouldn't be a surprise, given that they're meant to represent Duality itself, and I don't think anyone sensible would say that Duality is limited to the basic Multiverse.

In the New 52, specifically in Eternity Girl, their fundamentality is made even more clear in the context of The Tower. We already use the Tower's scaling in the Eternity Girl profile. The scans for the statements in the profile can be found here, here, and here. This is important, because in the very same storyline:
-
- Eternity Girl, who was a threat to the Tower, eventually became a Lord of Order towards the end. Which suggests that even beings who operate on that level are still part of the conflict, which is pretty much explicit in the story.
- It's stated that Chaos and Order govern Creation and Destruction, Birth and Death, and that these forces are fundamental to Creation itself. It's explicitly mentioned in the very same scan that Chaos and Order ensure both the Destruction and Creation of the Multiverse, which just enforces the perspective of them we got in the Doctor Fate Runs.
- Again, it's stated that the conflict between Chaos and Order is what sustains and contains All of Time and Space, seemingly on a conceptual level given the mention of the Tower.

I'm not pushing for them to be upgraded to High 1.B, or 1-A, or anything of that sorts. I'm just posting some what I would cosnider High-End feats to conjecture that we really shouldn't be surprised if they turn out this strong at some point in the future. I do think this atleast lends credence to the idea that them being 2-A just doesn't make sense.

On another note, we already have Spectre at Low 1-C. Atleast the unbound version, but we already saw how close their fight was. Doesn't really make sense to not scale Nabu to him.

Besides that, we really shouldn't use the JLD statements for Nabu seriously. If we take it at Face-value, then Nabu would have to destroy every realm in the Sphere of Gods one by one (as he was doing in the context of the story). But I don't think anyone would seriously think that Nabu could pull of destroying The Dreaming, take on every Hell-Lord, or even the Presence.


Tldr:

• Low 1-C Nabu? Yes
• Sphere of Gods Scaling? Absolutely not
• Humanity scaling? No, doesn't really relate to Nabu.

 

[Confluctor]

The humanity thing is for extra context....

 

[Hykuu]

For?

 

[Confluctor]

In general

 

[Hykuu]

Lol ok. You can count me as agreeing with the revisions, there's probably other profiles which need to be upgraded due to the same issues aswell

 

[Hykuu]

Bump

 

[Stefano4444]

Neutral, but leaning towards Hykuu's suggestion.

 

[Teezar]

Same.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe an extra key for Nabu in his true ascended state would be appropriate?

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @Kerfuffles2 @Stefano4444

What do you think about this?

 

[LordTracer]

On a quick glance, this seems fine.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Wouldn't Mordru scale to this?

 

[Hykuu]

Yeah, current Mordru atleast. The Lords of Order and Chaos pretty much always were atleast Low 1-C; although Mordru used to have showings which contradicted that. Current Mordru should scale, and probably a few others.

 

[Westcoast5005]

Yeah the old mordru wasn't even considered a lord of chaos

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe an extra key for Nabu in his true ascended state would be appropriate?

So should we give Nabu an extra key? He is not usually portrayed at this kind of power level, so treating him similarly to Darkseid might be best.

 

[Hykuu]

I'm not sure if this is about an extra key. The already existing key is meant to be Nabu's true Lord of Order form, which is what the feats were about. That specific Nabu barely shows up but he still has all of these feats and statements, so It's not clear that he's not "usually portrayed at this kind of power level". You can think of it as like the "True form Darkseid" key.

Should we apply the changes now or should we wait for more people to leave their thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense to me then.

We should preferably wait a while for more input.

 

[Deagonx]

Here, Darkseid explains how humanity is a threat to anyone in the Fourth Dimension and above.

I'm noit seeing anything about the Fourth Dimension here. Also how is this related to Nabu?

Here, Nabu explains the consciousness of a Lord of Order. Their mind is of a higher order - higher plane of existence.

I see that he's alluding the the fact that it's difficult to fit his consciousness into a human body, but what's all this stuff about higher order/higher plane of existence and where does it come from?

He was one of the beings who resided in a higher dimension but came down because of some stuff that went down between him and his fellow Lords of Order.

Where does this come from?

Additionally, they are shown to be transcendent of the universe/multiverse.

What part of this scan suggests they are transcendent? Also, what specifically does transcendent mean in this context?

Sorry Confluctor, I'm just not sure how these scans support what you're saying, or if they do, how that would make the lords 1-C

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps exact story issue references would be useful to verify the information?

 

[Hykuu]

He provided the references in the OP. I don't think the issue is verifying the Information, but rather what the Information is actually about. It doesn't seem like any of the scans in the OP actually lead to anything Low 1-C.

Also, I'm a bit confused as to why we don't have them at Low 1-C already. POTM's Blog is pretty much used as the standard for DC cosmology here, but the blog directly contains and affirms a scan which talks about how The Lords of Order transcended Into the Sphere of Gods, which we already accept as Low 1-C. This is pretty well-established in the more recent JLD run so I don't think there should be problems with accepting it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I personally don't have a problem with it, but it is best if you all finish your discussion about it first.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, here is a working link to your scan:

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Deagonx]

I think Hykuu makes sense, but before giving an affirmation I'd like to see an explanation for how that evidence supports a 1-C rating based on the wiki criteria rather than just 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Hykuu]

Sure. I'll go through them one by one.

We already list Unbound Spectre in the Day of Vengeance comic series as Low 1-C, given how easily he dispatched of Yz, who is obviously Low 1-C.
Nabu was capable of going back and forth with Unbound Spectre, although he was ultimately defeated. I don't think anyone would disagree that this obviously is a Low 1-C Feat, although I don't think that's what you were asking about.

With regards to New Genesis and Apokolips, we already list True Form Darkseid as Low 1-C, which I said earlier. If the conflict between The New Gods is itself just a fraction of the more fundamental conflict between The Lords of Chaos and Order, then it's safe to assume that they are at the very least, not an entire dimension below the True Form New Gods - which I think you would agree with.

With regards to them being the "basis of Magic", this is re-established in the recent JLD: Dark series in which all the magic in Creation is governed by a set of rules created by them, and there are countless other similiar statements which I take it you're aware of. It's clear that this warrants a Low 1-C tier given how we already accept Magic in Post-Crisis/New 52/Post-Flashpoint to be atleast Low 1-C if you look at our profiles. Someone could interpret this to be a much more higher end feat, but I don't think such a highballed Interpretation is warranted.

The rest of the scans regarding the Tower and them operating on "Every Plane of Existence, Every Level of Existence and Consciousness" is not itself Low 1-C, that's for sure. The point of those scans is to show that restricting the Conflict between the Lords of Order and Chaos to the Orrery of Worlds really doesn't make sense at the face of these statements, which is made even more clear if you consider all the other scans presented and look at them from a complete perspective. Again, someone could interpret this to be a higher-end feat, but it would take alot to justify those Interpretations which I simply don't think we have.

Regarding The Sphere of Gods thing, we already classify it as a Low 1-C realm. The Lords of Order and Chaos were capable of interacting with it's structure, tearing it apart during their battle, and so on. This on top of it being blatantly stated that they ascended from mere mortals in the orrery to Gods in the Sphere would warrant them atleast not being a whole dimension below it.

I think there's more stuff to be argued, if we look at the cosmology presented in DeMatteis' Fate run, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread and would likely just boil down to a meta-discussion about how we shoould approach Cosmologies which differ between writers, and I don't think anyone here has the time or energy to engage with this discussion so I'll just spare us the trouble.

 

[Antvasima]

Hykuu seems to make sense to me above.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I agree pretty much with Hykuu as well.

 

[Hykuu]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Sure. I'll go through them one by one.

We already list Unbound Spectre in the Day of Vengeance comic series as Low 1-C, given how easily he dispatched of Yz, who is obviously Low 1-C.
Nabu was capable of going back and forth with Unbound Spectre, although he was ultimately defeated. I don't think anyone would disagree that this obviously is a Low 1-C Feat, although I don't think that's what you were asking about.

With regards to New Genesis and Apokolips, we already list True Form Darkseid as Low 1-C, which I said earlier. If the conflict between The New Gods is itself just a fraction of the more fundamental conflict between The Lords of Chaos and Order, then it's safe to assume that they are at the very least, not an entire dimension below the True Form New Gods - which I think you would agree with.

With regards to them being the "basis of Magic", this is re-established in the recent JLD: Dark series in which all the magic in Creation is governed by a set of rules created by them, and there are countless other similiar statements which I take it you're aware of. It's clear that this warrants a Low 1-C tier given how we already accept Magic in Post-Crisis/New 52/Post-Flashpoint to be atleast Low 1-C if you look at our profiles. Someone could interpret this to be a much more higher end feat, but I don't think such a highballed Interpretation is warranted.

The rest of the scans regarding the Tower and them operating on "Every Plane of Existence, Every Level of Existence and Consciousness" is not itself Low 1-C, that's for sure. The point of those scans is to show that restricting the Conflict between the Lords of Order and Chaos to the Orrery of Worlds really doesn't make sense at the face of these statements, which is made even more clear if you consider all the other scans presented and look at them from a complete perspective. Again, someone could interpret this to be a higher-end feat, but it would take alot to justify those Interpretations which I simply don't think we have.

Regarding The Sphere of Gods thing, we already classify it as a Low 1-C realm. The Lords of Order and Chaos were capable of interacting with it's structure, tearing it apart during their battle, and so on. This on top of it being blatantly stated that they ascended from mere mortals in the orrery to Gods in the Sphere would warrant them atleast not being a whole dimension below it.

I think there's more stuff to be argued, if we look at the cosmology presented in DeMatteis' Fate run, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread and would likely just boil down to a meta-discussion about how we shoould approach Cosmologies which differ between writers, and I don't think anyone here has the time or energy to engage with this discussion so I'll just spare us the trouble.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Newendigo @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @Kerfuffles2 @Stefano4444

What do you think about this?

 

[Firestorm808]

Are we talking about Nabu as a Godhead or an Emanation level of the Sphere?

 

[Hykuu]

Godhead

 

[Firestorm808]

The topic is basically a continuation of the following thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/mordru-upgrade.114196/#post-3656927

• Justice League Dark Vol 2 #6 | February 2019
  • According to John Constantine, Doctor Fate is one of the few beings who could make a dent in the Phantom Stranger
  • According to Doctor Fate, instead of facing the Phantom Stranger head-on and risk the chaos, Doctor Fate used his helmet to seal away the Phantom Stranger. He does the same to Constantine as he cannot kill him and bring more demons into conflict.
  • The helm of Nabu is said to contain powers beyond gods.
• Justice League Dark Vol 2 #9 | May 2019
  • The Lords of Order have started destroying the magical dimension Myrra of the Sphere of the gods.
• Justice League Dark Vol 2 #10 | June 2019
  • Nabu plans to gather all the Lords of Order to destroy the Sphere of the Gods.
  • The Lords of Order take time to destroy Myrra and leave it as a white void. The Lords of Order goes on to continue unraveling the fictions of the Sphere.
  • Nabu reveals that the Lords of Order are not Gods. They are men who knew the power of stories and forged a foothold in the Sphere when belief in those stories was powerful enough.
• Justice League Dark Vol 2 #11 | July 2019
  • The Lords of Order have officially destroyed Myrra
  • Mordru infuses the Ruby of Life with enough power to rip the universe in half, allowing Zatanna and Wonder Woman to become Lords of Chaos.
• Justice League Dark Vol 2 #12 | August 2019
  • Man-Bat, Swamp-Thing, and Detective Chimp also become Lords of Chaos.
  • Zatanna is shown capable of breaking reality around Kor (On Earth).
  • The Demons 3 are capable of removing the Helm of a trapped Doctor Fate.
  • The Phantom Stranger, Kent Nelson, John Constantine, Jason Blood, Khalid Nassour, and Chaos Lord Zatanna perform a combined spell to bind Nabu's power within the helmet.
  • Using all the Ruby's power, Wonder Woman is able to repair Earth's reality.

I am hesitant to say that Nabu (On Earth) is comparable to Godheads. We would need to discuss how "Boomtube effect" applies in this scenario. On Earth, it only took the Ruby of Life plus Mordru's power to rip the universe in half split among different people to contend with the lords of order.

Can @Qawsedf234 and @Amakasu offer their thoughts if available?

 

[Hykuu]

The only point of contention here is the "Rip the Universe in half" argument. But it's obvious why this isn't really a problem - The statement doesn't give any actual cap to the fraction of power which Mordru gave them. For example, consider this pretty much perfect analogy.

Hitler (yes, Hitler) was capable of tapping enough into the Spectre's power to destroy the Universe, according to Doctor Fate. This in itself doesn't mean that the Power itself is only universal+, however, because he was far superior to Classic Fate at that point even with that fraction of power, who we already consider as atleast 2-C, possibly 2-A. Obviously, no one would claim that this is a feat which proves that Fate is Low 2-C, because the statement itself from Fate doesn't have any implications with it being the limit of the power given to Hitler.

It's pretty much the exact same in this context. A power is stated to be able to rip the universe in half, yet they literally on panel fight the Lords of Order who are undoubtedly atleast 2-A as we already accept. Basically, I really don't see why any of this warrants some sort of consideration about Nabu's "earth" emanation.

I still think it's fair to make 2 Keys which Antvasima suggested earlier: Emanation (Nabu), and True Form (Nabu). We can rate the former as 2-A and the latter as Low 1-C.
Thoughts?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll comment later when I get the time to read through everything.